[inovis]

Good evening.

I'm no electrician, neither do I have ton of knowledge.

I have 2 on-demand water heater (they heat water only when needed, pulling each 60 amp, so 120 amps total)

In summer, no problem, but as soon as I start heating the house (1500 square feet heated by electrical baseboard, regular household and bachelor) my heaters are not up to the job, wather just get warm... not hot

My guess is that either the electrical imput isn't sufficient from my provider, or that my amp usage is too high.

My Circuit Breakers is 200 amps.

What do you suggest... should I install a bigger Circuit Breaker or a second one with just the heaters on?

Thanks for your help... I want my hot showers back

David

[tkrussell]

Either the heaters are designed to only be warm, like the liquid filled units, or if normal basenoard heat, which should be almost too hot to touch. Need to check what the voltage is compared to the voltage rating of the heaters.

If the volts is too low the heaters may only be warm. You don't say if the heat warms the home OK.

I suggest determine the actual problem by using a voltage tester, before doing anything without knowing what the real problem is.

[inovis]

Since the water heaters only work when the water is running (on-demand), we don't have time to see a difference in room temperature.

As I said, in summer, the water-heaters give perfect water temperature (like regular hot tanks).

Careful not to confuse water-heater and baseboards ! My water-heaters are for hot water (shower, etc.).

My problem is not my baseboard temperature, but the fact that my water-heaters are not able to heat the water enough because of too much electricity used by my baseboards.

Is there a way to see how much amp I'm asking for all my appliances?

[omzig]

As the weather gets colder, the water coming into your house usually gets colder too. Tankless water heaters will only give so much rise in temperature for a given flow rate, so if the water is starting colder it will not be as hot out of the heater. In my area (northern Ohio), by the middle of winter the incoming water is real cold, probably around 40°F. If the heater is only producing say a 50° rise, then the hot water is only going to be 90°, which is really only lukewarm.

[inovis]

Thanks for the hint, but that's why we use 2 water heaters in Canada, since 1 would not be enough. The thing is, 2 will draw 120 amps from my 200 amps load center.

Add to this baseboards for heating 1500 sq/ft and all appliance, I'm afraid I'm asking for trouble.

Let's do the math:

120 amps (My tankless water-heaters)
50 amps (12,000 watt of baseboards @ 240volts)
35 amps (other appliances like washing machine, PC, tvs, freezers, etc.)

205 amps. Since I have a bachelor, we're 4 adults and 1 kid.

A regular water heater would take about 32 amps, so I would have 117 amps used instead of the 205...

[dmatos]

Admittedly, I'm not an electrician, but.. .

If you run too many things at once, isn't the only risk you run that of tripping the main house breaker? Each individual circuit will be operating within the safety margin, but if your total amperage exceeds that of the main breaker.. .

Chances are, though, that you'll not experience this. Do the water heaters actually pull 60 amps, or are they just on 60 amp breakers?

[labman]

If your lights stay bright, excessive electric use isn't the problem. omzig may be right about the water heaters. I am a skeptic on the tankless. One more post that makes me glad I bought another tank when my 25 year old one leaked this summer.

[inovis]

In fact, anytime (winter or summer) when the tankless water heater are running, all lights flicker. Useful to see if someone in the bachelor is having a shower... but bad sign maybe?

[tkrussell]

Has any actual voltage readings been taken?

Dmatos asks if the water heaters are drawing 60 amps, or is that the cirucuit breaker size?

So the water heaters work fine during the summer, but still cause the lights to flicker?

Do the water heaters have a nameplate that states the load in watts, KW, or amps?

What is the voltage rating of these?

The baseboard heat only gets warm?

How do you arrive at 12KW for baseboard heat, is this from name plate?

What does this mean:
Usefull to see if someone in the bachelor is having a shower... but bad sign maybe?

What is a bachelor?

Having a hard time to determine the actual symptoms. If you are drawing more than 200 amps, like omzig says, the breaker will trip. How do you arrive at the total load of 205 amps? By adding the breaker ratings?

What type of regular water heater draws 32 amps? To my knowledge, a stanard water heater is rated 450 watts at 240 volts =18.75 amps.

Can you answer my questions so we can determine the circumstances and possibly get you some advice?

**********EDIT Typo*******
I meant 4500 watts on the water heater

[omzig]

What type of regular water heater draws 32 amps? To my knowledge, a stanard water heater is rated 450 watts at 240 volts =18.75 amps.

Tankless ones. Some of them are rated as much as 120A@240V! You have to run two 60's to it.

EDIT: After re-reading I noticed that you said "regular." Yeah, most residential storage type heaters that I've seen are 5500W (23A/240V) or less.

[inovis]

Many questions, and as I said, I'm not knowledgeable with electricity.

Q. What is a bachelor?
A. Bachelor is an apartment part of my house. My basement is used by a young couple and they have everything (Kitchen, bathroom, washer/dryer, etc.). I leave upstair with my wife and 3yo daughter.

Q. Has any actual voltage readings been taken?
A. No, I don't know how to do that

Q. Dmatos asks if the water heaters are drawing 60 amps, or is that the cirucuit breaker size?
A. Each draws a maximum of 54 amps. Meaning, it will consume a maximum of 54 amps at peak power output, and I use, as suggested, 60 amps breakers.


Q. So the water heaters work fine during the summer, but still cause the lights to flicker?
A. Yes, anytime of the year, when it works, the light flicker for as long as the heater is running. Same when I use a table saw.

Q. Do the water heaters have a nameplate that states the load in watts, KW, or amps?
A. I will check tonight

Q. What is the voltage rating of these?
A. I will check tonight

Q. The baseboard heat only gets warm?
A. No problem with my baseboard, they work great

Q. How do you arrive at 12KW for baseboard heat, is this from name plate?
A. Just adding the total baseboard size I have (I have 500, 750 and 1000 watt models)

Q. What does this mean: Useful to see if someone in the bachelor is having a shower... but bad sign maybe?
A. See above for Bachelor=Apartment. Since the light flickers, it's useful to see if someone is already taking a shower so we don't play with hot water.

Q. How do you arrive at the total load of 205 amps?
A. I've done my best looking at website on watts/ohm/amps calculators and household energy charts. I'm not an expert. As I said, we are 4 adults and 1 kid, 1500sq/ft heated by baseboard at 18-21 degrees Celsius. 2 kitchen, 2 bathroom, 2 washer/dryer, etc. In winter, it's about -15 Celsius in average, but it goes down to -30 sometimes.

Thanks for the help,

David

[omzig]

How hot is the water at the sink? I had trouble with one of these new anti-scald shower valves. I had one that worked fine for a while then one day I couldn't get anything but barely warm water. The valve had an adjustment screw but it did nothing. I replaced it and it has worked since. I know this doesn't have anything to do with you using the baseboard heat concurrently, but it could be a coincidence.

[dmatos]

What is a bachelor?

To me, a bachelor apartment is one that has a single room for living room/bedroom. I think of them as zero bedroom apartments. However, he says that there are four adults and one child living there, so I doubt that's the case.. .

[labman]

You check voltage using a volt meter*. You just connect the leads to to any circuit. You can just poke the probes into an outlet. The volts should read about 115-120 without much running. Even 110 isn't too bad. What is bad is if it drops very much when the water heaters come on. If so, talk to your utility company about upgrading your service. If you don't like their answers, you may want to look at a tank style heater, or even gas. The tank style will draw a smaller current over a longer period giving you a warm house to step into from a hot shower.

One more simple, cheap solution. Buy a restrictive shower head making do with less, but warmer water.

*To do simple checks like this you do need some tools. A test light, a meter, or a voltage detector might be the best place to start with. I came across the niftiest gadget for trouble shooting, a voltage detector. They work through the insulation of wires. There are several brands. I have a GB Instruments GVD-505A, less than $15 at Home Depot. Touch it to a hot wire, and the end glows red. Find the doodad that lights it on one side, and not the other, and you have the culprit. You do not have to open up housings and expose electrical contacts. You are looking at where your hand is, not where the meter is. Most people are capable of doing repairs and will get it going and not get hurt if they use a little sense. The voltage detector makes it even easier.

For simple voltage checks, you don't need a Fluke or Simpson. The cheap little $5 ones will do.

[omzig]

To me, a bachelor apartment is one that has a single room for living room/bedroom. I think of them as zero bedroom apartments. However, he says that there are four adults and one child living there, so I doubt that's the case . . .

aka, an efficiency suite, or studio apartment.

[tkrussell]

OK, Inovis , thanks for the answers, for the most part, I understand now. As you can see, the actual voltage readings, I think, is one of the most important issues to resolve, to help troubleshoot your problem.

One or both of two things can be happening, you service may be overloaded, and/or your voltage is not stable. I believe there may be a loose connection, along with the large load, somewhere in the utility or your system causing the lights to flicker.

Since you state that you have little knowledge, and will probably need to purchase a volt meter, and then learn how to use it, can I suggest you hire an electrican to come out and check the supply voltage and thruout your system.

Ask that the connected load be checked to be sure the service can handle the load, and to check for any loose connections in your panel, meter, and utility connections.

Even with a large load, such as the water heater at 54 amps, should not cause the lights to blink, unless there is a lose connection someplace.

Assuming you have a 120/240 volt service,the voltage at any device or appliance should not be less than 5%, or 114 volts on a 120 volt circuit, or 228 volts for a 240 volt circuit.

Also, I added an edit statement on my previous post, I did mean the standard water heater I know of is 4500 watts, not 450 watts.

Sure hope this helps.

[bhayne]

Since your not tripping your main breaker, the system is not overloaded.

Lights flickering duing water use implies the heaters have multiple coils that are stepped in and out depending on output temperature.

If the water isn't hot enough and the lights are flickering, I would look at the control units on the heaters (especially if they are old).

I assume that you are in the country and gas is not available. Lights that flicker can also mean that your utility connection is weak- as it would be in the country side.

Solution:
1) Install a hot water tank to preheat the water, or
2) Replace the existing heaters with solid state heaters (to remove the stepping action that causes the lights to flicker).

[inovis]

Ok, verified the information on the Tankless Heaters:
11.8 Kw, 220 Volts, 56 amps (Each)

[tkrussell]

And you don't have enough hot water, with that kind of KW of heat? Wow, what is your electric bill like?

I pay over .10/KWH here in New England, we needless to say, stay away from large loads like that. If one ran two hours each day of a month, the hot water alone would cost $70. Glad to see other parts of the world can use electric without going bankrupt.

If these run together, even alone, is a large drop dead load, and eat up a great deal of capacity, and you know since you did that math.

If only one went on at a time, and I need to assume some type of control is in place to prevent both from coming on at the same time, and as bhayne mentions, one unit should be controlled so the entire unit does not come on at once, I don't believe this would cause the flickering if the service is in good condition.

I do notice the water heater is rated at 220 volts, and I assume you have 240 volts, and if so, this will cause the unit at full capacity to draw 48 amps, instead of the 52, which is good for the small amount of ampacity gained for the panel, but the heater will put out lower BTU of heat with a supply voltage that gets lower than 240 volts relative to the percent drop.

However, I take this as another possible indication of a voltage issue.

Loose connections are the weak point of electrical systems. I suggest calling in a service contractor, and the utility to have both systems checked for loose connections and a possible voltage drop issue.

Hope this answers your questions. If not get back with more and we can proceed from there.