[Alty]

Yes but you can't control people, places or things at all times. His influence is in you, in me, in your neighbor right now, being a good person and committing good deeds, he is there to provide guidance not stop the dying or the wicked.

His influence isn't in me, that's your belief. People influence me, not God. No, I don't have control over others, I only have control over myself. I also don't need God in order to be a good person or commit good deeds, again, that's your belief, not mine.

What would you learn if he solved all your problems?

I don't expect him to solve all my problems, in fact, I know he won't, because I don't believe he interferes with our lives. As for what I'd learn, well, I'd learn that you're right and I'm wrong.

The fact of life... people are born and people die.

Yes they do. What does that have to do with God though?

[Alty]

Just a story, but I think it makes an interesting point.

What you see as evidence that G-d doesn't interfere, I see as evidence that he does.

Just a thought.

It's a good thought. :)

I've seen and been involved in things that are miraculous as well, but miracles because of God? I simply don't think that's the case.

I'm really not trying to say that I'm right. I'm not asking you all to forget what you believe and come to the dark side. ;) I'm simply trying to clarify my beliefs.

I think it's great that you look at the world and see only good in it, see God's creation and God's plan. I don't see that. Not that I think the world is bad, well, not my little corner of it.

I get the feeling that you all seem to think I'm missing out on something because I don't have your faith. Trust me, I'm not. I lead a very good life. I don't need the threat or the promise of the bible to be a good person. I also don't need a theist faith in order to be fulfilled and happy.

I found my place in this world, and I'm happy with it.

Like I said, I'll never stop questioning, and I know you have all tried to provide some answers, but what you all have said isn't anything I haven't heard before. Trust me, 10 years of Catholic school, I'm very well versed in that belief system. ;)

My original post was for Sndbay, because she asked a question that I felt deserved an answer, but I didn't want to hijack the thread we were on. This now seems to have turned into a "convert Alty" session. I know it's not being done with anything but your best intentions, I really do, but honestly, there really isn't anything you all could say that I haven't already considered.

We simply don't see eye to eye.

[firmbeliever]

I've already answered this.

If I, as a parent, had the power to cure my child of an illness, I would. If God, all powerful, powerful enough to create the world, really was involved in our every day lives, how could he let his children die of diseases that he could cure?

I am a parent as well and yes, I do believe that my children need to make mistakes and learn from them. Some of those mistakes will cause suffering. But, if my children were about to make a mistake that could cost them their lives, you better believe I'd step in and stop them.

I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye, simply because of our beliefs. You cannot understand my faith anymore then I can understand yours.

I'm not saying you're wrong to have faith. If you have it and it brings you comfort then that's great. The thing you all don't understand is that my faith also brings me comfort, it makes sense to me. I've never seen any evidence of a God that intervenes, therefore I don't believe he does. That's just the way it is, for me.

Alty,

I understand your point of view that for you it does not make sense to believe a Creator who created and gave the creation rules to live by and that there are consequences for each action.

But when you compare the Almighty to a parent I think is the wrong perspective as you seem to think that a theist believes,maybe some do think of the Almighty that way,but not me.
A parent is given the gift of a child, a blessing, a duty and honor to be a parent.
And we have to make the best choices for the child not knowing what the future holds and hope for the best that it turns out all right for our children.When they suffer we wish to cure them,to make everything that is bad,wrong,ugly go away from their lives because we cannot bear to see them suffer even for a few minutes.

The Almighty as I believe is All-Knowing-which would mean that the actions of the Creator is according to the knowledge of the past,present and future of that person. When a human suffers the All-Aware Creator I believe in knows exactly what is wrong in the physical body of the person or what is right in the spiritual body/soul of the person.

When the soul of a person leaves the physical self I believe that the Creator knows exactly the state of the person's heart.Which we as the ones left behind do not know.

I remember reading about in one thread on another Topic;
About a tree falling in the forest and if it makes a sound when it falls even if there is no one around, well I believe the Creator does know exactly why it fell and the consequences of the falling tree since before it was a seed till it becomes part of the dust and more.


.

[xoxaprilwine]

Excuse my ignorance, but why are you spelling God with a "-"?

Wow, some unavoidable points here as presented by Elliot. Simply at it's best: "What does not kill you makes you stronger" even if it is at the cost of millions…there is always a result and hope got them there.

(Maybe her fingers are long or her keyboard is broken - blame it on God!! - That was childish of me :) - there is a "child-in-me")

His influence isn't in me, that's your belief. People influence me, not God. No, I don't have control over others, I only have control over myself. I also don't need God in order to be a good person or commit good deeds, again, that's your belief, not mine.

I don't expect him to solve all my problems, in fact, I know he won't, because I don't believe he interferes with our lives. As for what I'd learn, well, I'd learn that you're right and I'm wrong.

Yes they do. What does that have to do with God though?

God gives life and God takes it away. If you believe God breeds life (then he continues to bless us today) and you believe in the destruction of life via Cancer and AIDS or other human tragedies (which in your most recent post said now that it is our fault) then I guess he takes it away too right? He is responsible for the creation and destruction because of his ignorance to mankind - he left. What does God have to do with life and death then? What has been discussed in the post is a direct result of this point - unless death from Cancer, AIDS, War, Politics, Crime, Murder, Children have not been discussed at some point? Am I lost? If you don't believe in God then this point is completely irrelevant. You believe God created it, left it and walked away. I don't believe that but you do... so be it.

I don't care about you being influenced about God - because it is not your belief but rather it is unfortunate that you are influenced by people. I think you even stated that you believe in being deist but could change your belief in that later (if you discover that it isn't correct). I also said being a good person is proof that there is good in us or take the extra "o" out which is "God".

You know he won't solve your problems because he hasn't rescued you yet. As you have had personal and very, very, very unfortunate circumstances in your life where things did not get resolved by prayer, you lost hope…and you are entitled to that. But look how strong you are today and what you can do to help someone else in a similar situation out. You still live in fear for your children. You don't believe he interferes but you believe he created the mess and just left. Fine, he isn't there – but he never helped out in the first place with these mass amount of mistakes human error has done alone.

NO, I am not right and you are not wrong - difference of opinions and beliefs... I am stating mine as you yours. You are challenging me just as much as I am challenging you; so realistically no one is better then anyone. I am enjoying this discussion very vibrantly.

It's a good thought. :)

I've seen and been involved in things that are miraculous as well, but miracles because of God? I simply don't think that's the case.

I'm really not trying to say that I'm right. I'm not asking you all to forget what you believe and come to the dark side. ;) I'm simply trying to clarify my beliefs.

I think it's great that you look at the world and see only good in it, see God's creation and God's plan. I don't see that. Not that I think the world is bad, well, not my little corner of it.

I get the feeling that you all seem to think I'm missing out on something because I don't have your faith. Trust me, I'm not. I lead a very good life. I don't need the threat or the promise of the bible to be a good person. I also don't need a theist faith in order to be fulfilled and happy.

I found my place in this world, and I'm happy with it.

Like I said, I'll never stop questioning, and I know you have all tried to provide some answers, but what you all have said isn't anything I haven't heard before. Trust me, 10 years of Catholic school, I'm very well versed in that belief system. ;)

My original post was for Sndbay, because she asked a question that I felt deserved an answer, but I didn't want to hijack the thread we were on. This now seems to have turned into a "convert Alty" session. I know it's not being done with anything but your best intentions, I really do, but honestly, there really isn't anything you all could say that I haven't already considered.

We simply don't see eye to eye.

And I will leave it at that – because that's good for you. I am sure if I posted (about being Catholic... I would get responses too :)) but you don't need to explain your beliefs to anyone.

[xoxaprilwine]

Alty,

I understand your point of view that for you it does not make sense to believe a Creator who created and gave the creation rules to live by and that there are consequences for each action.

But when you compare the Almighty to a parent I think is the wrong perspective as you seem to think that a theist believes,maybe some do think of the Almighty that way,but not me.
A parent is given the gift of a child, a blessing, a duty and honor to be a parent.
And we have to make the best choices for the child not knowing what the future holds and hope for the best that it turns out all right for our children.When they suffer we wish to cure them,to make everything that is bad,wrong,ugly go away from their lives because we cannot bear to see them suffer even for a few minutes.

The Almighty as I believe is All-Knowing-which would mean that the actions of the Creator is according to the knowledge of the past,present and future of that person. When a human suffers the All-Aware Creator I believe in knows exactly what is wrong in the physical body of the person or what is right in the spiritual body/soul of the person.

When the soul of a person leaves the physical self I believe that the Creator knows exactly the state of the person's heart.Which we as the ones left behind do not know.

I remember reading about in one thread on another Topic;
about a tree falling in the forest and if it makes a sound when it falls even if there is no one around, well I believe the Creator does know exactly why it fell and the consequences of the falling tree since before it was a seed till it becomes part of the dust and more.


.

This is a nice perspective but she is not as easily influenced by other people as she say's and is stronger then she claims not to be :).

[firmbeliever]

xoxaprilwine,
I am not trying to influence Alty,
I am just trying to tell her that not all theists think the same way about the parent-God comparison she was drawing.



.

[xoxaprilwine]

xoxaprilwine,
I am not trying to influence Alty,
I am just trying to tell her that not all theists think the same way about the parent-God comparison she was drawing.

Trust me, 10 years of Catholic school, I'm very well versed in that belief system. ;)

She knows all about it.

My original post was for Sndbay, because she asked a question that I felt deserved an answer, but I didn't want to hijack the thread we were on. This now seems to have turned into a "convert Alty" session.

She doesn't want to hear about it anymore. She moved on. But I liked it and agree.

[ETWolverine]

Excuse my ignorance, but why are you spelling God with a "-"?

Hi Sarge,

It's a Jewish thing.

In Judaism, we have a tradition to not take G-d's name in vain (meaning without a specific purpose in prayer or blessing) as a sign of respect and awe. This applies to the written word as well as the spoken word.

(The original prohibition against verbal misuse of G-d's name is from the 10 Commandments, but there is a Rabbinical component to the tradition as well, in terms of the written usage of G-d's name.)

If I were speaking to a fellow Jew, I would probably use the term "Hashem" which is not a name of G-d, but rather means "The Name" (or in Harry Potter terminology "He Who Shall Not Be Named"). :)

Since I am NOT speaking ot other Orthodox Jews, I am using the name of G-d most commonly used in the Western world. But in keeping with my religious tradition, I am not spelling out the name in full.

I have no expectation that anyone else would or should follow this tradition. Nor am I offended by anyone else who spells out the word in full as is proper in their own tradition. I follow my religious beliefs, and I am happy when others do the same for their own. So I hope that nobody will feel some sort of obligation toward me... that is most certainly not my intent.

I hope that explains it.

[xoxaprilwine]

It's a Jewish thing.

Interesting, so it's the Western way of going about talking about it! I guess we learn something everyday! I am sorry, I guess your fingers weren't too long and your keyboard is working. :)

[Alty]

God gives life and God takes it away. If you believe God breeds life (then he continues to bless us today) and you believe in the destruction of life via Cancer and AIDS or other human tragedies (which in your most recent post said now that it is our fault) then I guess he takes it away too right?

God gave us the Universe and then walked away. There is no giving and taking, that's still your belief, not mine.

What does God have to do with life and death then?

From a Deist position, nothing.

You know he won't solve your problems because he hasn't rescued you yet

Again, that's your belief, not mine. You're still stuck on what you believe, you haven't listened to a word of what I've said, you've just tried to twist it to prove your point.

And I will leave it at that – because that's good for you. I am sure if I posted (about being Catholic... I would get responses too ) but you don't need to explain your beliefs to anyone.

This I do agree with. :)

[Alty]

She doesn't want to hear about it anymore. She moved on. But I liked it and agree.

I value our differences. It's not that I don't want to hear about it, it's that I feel I'm not being heard.

You still post as if you're talking to a Christian that just lost her way. I haven't. I'm not a Christian, I probably never will be again. I haven't lost my way, I found it and it works for me. Until I find proof that completely disproves what I believe, Deism is what I will stick with.

You keep trying to bring God into my life in your way, you still don't understand my way. Maybe you don't want to understand, maybe it's me, maybe I'm not being clear enough.

[xoxaprilwine]

I value our differences. It's not that I don't want to hear about it, it's that I feel I'm not being heard.

You still post as if you're talking to a Christian that just lost her way. I haven't. I'm not a Christian, I probably never will be again. I haven't lost my way, I found it and it works for me. Until I find proof that completely disproves what I believe, Deism is what I will stick with.

You keep trying to bring God into my life in your way, you still don't understand my way. Maybe you don't want to understand, maybe it's me, maybe I'm not being clear enough.

So you got my last point and if your happy now then it's good. I have accepted it... because if it is good enough for you then so be it; I might be a little rigid around the corner but I guess I have my belief too :). I was trying to end the cycle of "having to prove your point and be clear" so you don't feel "Alty conversion". When I said "She doesn't want to hear it. She has moved on."... it is redundant. I am one of those that look at small details so sorry; I am just pointing out what you say and how it compiles. My intention was not to make you look lost... maybe I needed clarification.

I don't have to agree either, but we can acknowledge that the position is understood. I am stubborn because I do believe God cares, loves us, forgives us, is patient with us and will answer our prayers... just not in the way we want. You believe God created the world and left us to prosper or decay - leaving us to be on our own/making our life and living it to the fullest extent in those means. It is true that we have the power to change our lives and take ownership over it. So mankind should assume ownership over these issues brought up in this post with worldly/human matters... not God! That is all I am saying... he isn't responsible for tragic deaths, Cancer or AIDS, human wars, conflicts, crime etc. we are responsible as a global generalization and especially the tyrants committing crime (sin). Which is something you recently agreed to.

Here is an idea I would like your opinion on as a Deist: You need proof God intervenes; what proof do you need to know God even exists? Maybe nothing really exists at all. We came to be and are... so why even bring God into the equation? I read the link but still can't come up with a concept that makes sense to me in that matter. Just like you might see the Bible as not making sense - "man made stories". Only thing that does is our human history - so why blame some creator of the Universe for our problems? We see how history just repeats itself.

That's why there are scientists and idealists (philosophers) in this world - do we believe their theories because "they" exist... where did they come up with these ideas. Did everything start with an idea? If you challenge the fact that we need proof God's intervention on earth (or not) then you are challenging Gods existence in some sense right? Or no? What is the reason behind that? Do we just give idea's and concepts or theories life (or faith)(or hope)(or science) by believing in it then proving it? What if we can't prove it but know it exists in our hearts? Is it just an idea or is it real to that person? Well real to that person I guess... whatever keeps us going.

[Alty]

I am stubborn because I do believe God cares, loves us, forgives us, is patient with us and will answer our prayers... just not in the way we want.

I'm just as stubborn about my beliefs, which is where the problem of understanding each other begins. You can't accept my way any more then I can accept yours, but we are discussing this rationally and that counts for a lot. Most times, when religious beliefs are discussed, it becomes a fight. This conversation has not. The respect is there from both sides and that makes all the difference.

You need proof God intervenes; what proof do you need to know God even exists? Maybe nothing really exists at all. We came to be and are... so why even bring God into the equation? I read the link but still can't come up with a concept that makes sense to me in that matter.

I see no proof that God intervenes. What you believe is necessary in order for us to grow, I see as cruel. For me, if God did intervene, the world would be very different.

Why do I believe there is a God that created all of this? Because science alone doesn't explain it. Every complex thing in this world is just too amazing to have been formed without some higher power having a hand in it. I do believe God created this beautiful world. I don't think he intended for all the bad, but by giving humans free will he did seal our fate. I simply don't think that he would let this world he created come to ruin if he cared. I'm not saying he's a mean, vengeful, uncaring God, I'm sure he's a really nice guy ;), I just think he built it then left it, never gave it a second thought.

That's why there are scientists and idealists (philosophers) in this world - do we believe their theories because "they" exist... where did they come up with these ideas.

Scientist and idealist, doctors, lawyers, housewives, we're all human, fallible. We make mistakes, that's our nature. No, I don't believe every theory that they come up with, they're human, prone to error. The bible was written by fallible men. There may be some basis of truth to some of the stories in the bible. But all of it?

I'm a writer, when I write a story, even if it's based on truth, the facts often get lost. To tell an interesting story, catch the readers attention, you have to stretch the truth a little. No one wants to read about your day at the beach when you got a sunburn. Add a shark that rips off your limb and it because interesting. That's what I believe the bible is.

Trust me when I say that my decision to become a Deist was not made lightly. I was raised Lutheran, in a very loving home with wonderful parents that believed that God did love us. I went to a Catholic school which is where I started to question, mainly because of the way I was treated. You see, Lutheran girls weren't really accepted by Catholics. If I had a penny for every person, parents included, that told me I was going to hell because I wasn't Catholic, I'd be a very wealthy woman.

When I started working, I worked for a company that my dad's boss owned. His boss was a strict Pentecostal. He was very involved in his church. One day we were talking. He asked about my beliefs, why I didn't go to church. I said that I didn't find church necessary. He had to go to church, because he had to ask for forgiveness. You see, he claimed it was okay to cheat, lie, steal, rape, pillage, whatever you want, as long as you go to church on Sunday and ask for forgiveness, you're forgiven, it's all good, your spot in heaven is secured.

If there is a heaven, and I really hope there is, then I don't think going to church or reading the bible will get you there. I live my life the best I can. I'm kind, I help my fellow man, I don't cheat I don't steal, I try my best to be a decent human being, but not because I'm afraid that God will strike me down, because of course I don't think he's watching, but because that's who I want to be, it's the right way to be. I don't need a deity to be a decent human being and too many people that do worship God have shown me that bad is everywhere, religion doesn't have anything to do with decency.

Great, another book by Alty. I sure can ramble. ;)

[elscarta]

For me, if God did intervene, the world would be very different.

Could you describe this world please.

[Alty]

Could you describe this world please.

Use your imagination.

You already know why I don't think God intervenes, so what do you think this world would be like?

Children wouldn't die. Women wouldn't be raped. Wars wouldn't start. People wouldn't maim, kill, hurt, molest.

Would it be paradise? Probably not, but there would be a lot less crap in the world.

[xoxaprilwine]

I will have to write tomorrow!

[xoxaprilwine]

xoxaprilwine can't delete this spot??

[elscarta]

Use your imagination.

You already know why I don't think God intervenes, so what do you think this world would be like?

Children wouldn't die. Women wouldn't be raped. Wars wouldn't start. People wouldn't maim, kill, hurt, molest.

Would it be paradise? Probably not, but there would be a lot less crap in the world.

As I have asked in a previous post, how much do you value "free will"? All of the above happen because of "free will". People choose to rape, kill, maim, hurt, molest and start wars.

Say the government announced that they had developed a drug that would take away free will and make people only do good, how many people do you think would choose to take it? Would it be OK for the government to force people to take it?

[sndbay]

As I have asked in a previous post, how much do you value "free will"? All of the above happen because of "free will". People choose to rape, kill, maim, hurt, molest and start wars.

Say the government announced that they had developed a drug that would take away free will and make people only do good, how many people do you think would choose to take it? Would it be OK for the government to force people to take it?

Right you are.. And I had that conversaion on another thread. Why scripture and God does offer the law to keep us straight. But the answer I got to doing it God's way was said to be lack of freedom. Even the thought of pray would be unacceptible if it is mandated in our minds to do.

Freedom I have to do what? Pray? Is THAT it?

May thoughts are why refuse to pray if it brings goodness? If prayer brings the intervention of blessing? Especially when you see the world around us in the solar system is made so perfectly.

It take a surrendering heart in knowing you can't do it yourself. You can goal your own actions, but you can't make the entire world follow you. (the opinion is, that pride makes someone think God's way is not the best way, instead they want freedom)


God did gives us liberty of Law, liberty to sin or not to sin.

[xoxaprilwine]

I'm just as stubborn about my beliefs, which is where the problem of understanding each other begins. You can't accept my way any more then I can accept yours, but we are discussing this rationally and that counts for a lot. Most times, when religious beliefs are discussed, it becomes a fight. This conversation has not. The respect is there from both sides and that makes all the difference.

And I COMPLETELY concur. Isn't it nice just to discuss things :).

I see no proof that God intervenes. What you believe is necessary in order for us to grow, I see as cruel. For me, if God did intervene, the world would be very different.

Why do I believe there is a God that created all of this? Because science alone doesn't explain it. Every complex thing in this world is just too amazing to have been formed without some higher power having a hand in it. I do believe God created this beautiful world. I don't think he intended for all the bad, but by giving humans free will he did seal our fate. I simply don't think that he would let this world he created come to ruin if he cared. I'm not saying he's a mean, vengeful, uncaring God, I'm sure he's a really nice guy ;), I just think he built it then left it, never gave it a second thought.

If that's what you believe then at least you still believe there is a God. We both believe in God, just differently. Someone can challenge both of us and ask for proof that he even exists…so I can't say your wrong if it feels right for you.

Scientist and idealist, doctors, lawyers, housewives, we're all human, fallible. We make mistakes, that's our nature. No, I don't believe every theory that they come up with, they're human, prone to error. The bible was written by fallible men. There may be some basis of truth to some of the stories in the bible. but all of it?

The Bible evolves over generations to be able to make the proper associations with today's world to adapt to new ideas and concepts BUT still keeping true meanings.

I'm a writer, when I write a story, even if it's based on truth, the facts often get lost. To tell an interesting story, catch the readers attention, you have to stretch the truth a little. No one wants to read about your day at the beach when you got a sunburn. Add a shark that rips off your limb and it because interesting. That's what I believe the bible is.

There is still some truth and still a purpose – a lesson to be learned.

Trust me when I say that my decision to become a Deist was not made lightly. I was raised Lutheran, in a very loving home with wonderful parents that believed that God did love us. I went to a Catholic school which is where I started to question, mainly because of the way I was treated. You see, Lutheran girls weren't really accepted by Catholics. If I had a penny for every person, parents included, that told me I was going to hell because I wasn't Catholic, I'd be a very wealthy woman.

So you talk about being raised “Lutheran, then condoning to Catholic”. I am raised a Catholic and then later (by way of private education) taught Lutheran ways…I even sung their songs…I crossed when they didn't. I never felt inferior and I can't recall as a Catholic cussing a Lutheran. Your experience is new to me and I am sorry for that.

When I started working, I worked for a company that my dad's boss owned. His boss was a strict Pentecostal. He was very involved in his church. One day we were talking. He asked about my beliefs, why I didn't go to church. I said that I didn't find church necessary. He had to go to church, because he had to ask for forgiveness. You see, he claimed it was okay to cheat, lie, steal, rape, pillage, whatever you want, as long as you go to church on Sunday and ask for forgiveness, you're forgiven, it's all good, your spot in heaven is secured.

Well most people do think that…but you should repent for your sins and mean it. When you make a promise to God (not to do something anymore because you know it is wrong) then you must keep your promise. Breaking a promise to God has consequences too.

If there is a heaven, and I really hope there is, then I don't think going to church or reading the bible will get you there. I live my life the best I can. I'm kind, I help my fellow man, I don't cheat I don't steal, I try my best to be a decent human being, but not because I'm afraid that God will strike me down, because of course I don't think he's watching, but because that's who I want to be, it's the right way to be. I don't need a deity to be a decent human being and too many people that do worship God have shown me that bad is everywhere, religion doesn't have anything to do with decency.

I agree with that as well; we can be “spiritual”.