[Alty]

In response to a question asked by Sndbay

Altenweg,

I am a little baffle by your statement of proof wanted. From what I have studied the religion of Deism was of the Gentiles. There were five common notions known.

1. There is one Supreme God.
2. He ought to be worshipped.
3. Virtue and piety are the chief parts of divine worship.
4. We ought to be sorry for our sins and repent of them
5. Divine goodness doth dispense rewards and punishments both in this life and after it.

What changed that idea was a theory of knowledge based on experience. John Locke who was not deist, turned the theory to natural theology and to arguments based on experience and nature.

Matthew Tinal argued against special revelation "God designed all mankind that should at all times know, what God wills them to know, believe, profess, and practice; and has given them no other means for this, but the Use of Reason. This was termed the Deist bible based on experience or human reason.

A modern definition today is the recognition of a universal creative force greater than that demonstrated by mankind, supported by personal observation of laws and designs in nature and the universe, perpetuated and validated by the innate ability of human reason coupled with the rejection of claims made by individuals and organized religions of having received special divine revelation.

Each of these even the newer interpretation have a foundation of knowing a greater force then man. Example meets that of proof in a God.

So is it that you believe there is a God, but don't believe He is a caring God? What is the reasoning behind your thoughts?


Off thread.

I believe that God created the universe, with the help of science, then he walked away. I don't believe that he bothers himself with his creation.

My reasoning is the suffering in the world, the hardship. If there was a caring God then he wouldn't allow his children to suffer the way they do.

Plagues, wars, tornadoes, murder, rape, illness. Too much proof that God doesn't care about us, but has washed his hands of his creation.

Most times, when I give the reason for my belief in Deism, I'm told that the suffering is part of his great plan, that the suffering will lead to eternal life. Well, to me that's just further proof that God doesn't care. Live in hell so you can go to heaven? Where's the love in that?

As for my belief. Let me describe Deism;

Deism is a religious and philosophical belief that a supreme being created the universe, and that this (and religious truth in general) can be determined using reason and observation of the natural world alone, without a need for either faith or organized religion. Deists tend to, but do not necessarily, reject the notion of divine interventions in human affairs, such as by miracles and revelations. These views contrast with a dependence on revelations, miracles, and faith found in many Judeo-Christian, Islamic and other theistic teachings.

Deists typically reject most supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and tend to assert that God (or "The Supreme Architect") has a plan for the universe that is not altered either by God intervening in the affairs of human life or by suspending the natural laws of the universe. What organized religions see as divine revelation and holy books, most deists see as interpretations made by other humans, rather than as authoritative sources.

Want to know more?

Deism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For once, Wickepedia is very accurate. :)

[sndbay]

In response to a question asked by Sndbay


I believe that God created the universe, with the help of science, then he walked away. I don't believe that he bothers himself with his creation.

My reasoning is the suffering in the world, the hardship. If there was a caring God then he wouldn't allow his children to suffer the way they do.

So in the reasoning you think God being perfect should have made us perfect? (All of Us)

Plagues, wars, tornadoes, murder, rape, illness. Too much proof that God doesn't care about us, but has washed his hands of his creation.

So even if God did make us perfect, you reason that God must keep us perfect, not allow us choices? You hold God accountable to everyone's actions? Don't place us in hope of dreams we think up, instead just restick, prohabit, and mandate to force the control?

Is this what you want?

Most times, when I give the reason for my belief in Deism, I'm told that the suffering is part of his great plan, that the suffering will lead to eternal life. Well, to me that's just further proof that God doesn't care. Live in hell so you can go to heaven? Where's the love in that?

Do you live in hell?

I won't tell you that, because I trust God does want us to be perfect. I believe God has shown us many many ways in which He can bless us, and that He has blessed us. I have three beautiful children grown who always will be the color in my life. I have traveled to many beautiful places, and experience friendly, loving people. And I have seen nature full of color in fall, white in winter, and green in summer. I can sit outside at night with a campfire, to see the sky, and feel the wind, and smell the campfire. These things are all apart of what God has given out of love. I am thankful for all.

I admit I wish that this all could be exactly the perfection that God's hand of strength would give everyone. But as I reason my freedom in choice in doing what I do, I enjoy giving my children what I feel they can enjoy. I hope and dream for them to be happy and offer them several means of fun and pleasure.

What if we have what we want, and the choice goes against what God holds as perfect? Then we are back to what God mandates as perfect.

Altenweg, I feel this is what we have now, and people do not listen to the do's and don't. God gave us the ordained law. People would not be happy any other way then what is given right now in liberty of law. What has gone wrong isn't what God wants for us, it is what we ourselves have chosen in the liberty of God's law. The liberty to love, to be kind, and not fight, rape, and steal from others is what God wants.

God's way is straight, but for us to be happy we have to all want the same love and caring ways of life. I believe that is what God is watching over us to find. And in this liberty comes the liberty of Faith and Trust God wants us to hold as HIS promise. That time will come...

In the mean time, could you get everyone to stop their sin and evil ways to do what God asks..

[Tokugawa]

"It is said that God can do anything within the laws of logic. The truth of the matter is we can have no idea of what an illogical universe would look like." - Ludwig Wittgenstein.

[Alty]

So in the reasoning you think God being perfect should have made us perfect? (All of Us)

No, not make us perfect but surely look out for us. Getting cancer has nothing to do with being perfect, it's a disease. Why does God allow people to die of cancer? Being raped is not the fault of the victim, why does God allow it to happen? So many things that, if God really loved us and cared for us, wouldn't happen. The fact that they do happen is proof enough for me that God created the world then walked away.

Do you live in hell?

No, but then I don't expect eternal life in heaven, so my expectations are a bit lower. What I tried to say is that those that follow the bible, believe in a caring loving God, they are doing so in hopes of eternity in heaven, so this must be hell, because of all the suffering that they're willing to put up with when they believe in a God that could, according to their beliefs, end that suffering. The fact that He does nothing to end it, that would mean we are in fact in hell. Just my way of thinking.

I too have many blessings, two beautiful children, a husband that I still love, my life is good, but only because I won't let it be bad.

I've also had a lot of pain and suffering. I lost both my parents to cancer, 6 1/2 months apart, watched them suffer, lost the two people that brought me into this world, two people I loved more then I can ever explain. During that time I still believed in a Christian God. I prayed, I begged, I would have given my life, but the God of the bible didn't listen, didn't care.

When I was 5 years old I was molested by my cousin, my babysitter, this lasted for years. I prayed every night for it to stop, God didn't stop it. My mistake, I should have told my parents, human beings, because they would have seen an end to it. God didn't.

When I was 18 I was raped. Where was God then? He wasn't with me, and at that time I still believed.

No, belief in a God that cares never did anything for me. Now I believe in myself, in fighting for myself and my family. I won't count on God because it's always been clear to me that he won't do a thing for me.

I do respect your right to believe, for some people it brings comfort, peace. If that's what the bible and your faith does for you then who am I to question your right to it? But, my peace comes from knowing that I can count on myself and my family to do everything in our power not to let evil into our lives. Will I succeed? Probably not, because evil is everywhere, but I do know that when it comes to my home, I won't be sitting in a corner praying, I'll use those hands for another purpose.

[Tokugawa]

What is given is given. Shall I now sit down at the feast, and declare it is not to my taste!! To what shall I comapre existence to? Non existence? Please tell me what that is, if you have wisdom.

[Alty]

What is given is given. Shall I now sit down at the feast, and declare it is not to my taste!?!? To what shall I comapre existence to? Non existence? Please tell me what that is, if you have wisdom.

What?

[Tokugawa]

Satre speaks of the absurdity of life, existence. Why is there anything at all? Our whole state of being is gratutious! In fact it is an absurdity! We are thrown into exsitence, and then thrown out!

Wittgenstein tells us that we cannot speak of existence at all, as in order to do so, we would have to compare it to non existence, to establish what existence is. Try thinking of non existence, and tell me what you see. You will of course be thinking of something, perhaps black empty space, which does exist.

Neitzsche tells us to sing, love, hate, and create. Life resembles nothing as much as a founderd boat that may sink at any moment. One is sure that it will sink, one cannot be sure when.

[Alty]

Satre speaks of the absurdity of life, existence. Why is there anything at all? Our whole state of being is gratutious!! In fact it is an absurdity!! We are thrown into exsitence, and then thrown out!!

Wittgenstein tells us that we cannot speak of existence at all, as in order to do so, we would have to compare it to non existence, to establish what existence is. Try thinking of non existence, and tell me what you see. You will of course be thinking of something, perhaps black empty space, which does exist.

Neitzsche tells us to sing, love, hate, and create. Life resembles nothing as much as a founderd boat that may sink at any moment. One is sure that it will sink, one cannot be sure when.

Existence, non existence, I try very hard not to think about that, I'd rather just live in the moment.

Will I die? Of course I will. What will worrying about it do for me? I don't need an ulcer. I don't wish to spend my life thinking about my death.

Is there a heaven? I don't know. I can't say, never been there. It's a nice dream, I truly hope that heaven is real, there is hope in that. But to spend my life striving for heaven, no. I can't do that, because the only way (according to bible fearing folks) to get into heaven is to follow every rule in that man written book called the bible. A book that is so unrealistic and illogical that it still amazes me that anyone would believe that it's non fiction.

Life may not resemble anything to Neitzsche, but to me life is hope. Life is the opportunity to live, love, make your corner of the world a better place. If one constantly lives in fear of death then yes, life will not resemble anything, because you're not living.

[Wondergirl]

No, not make us perfect.

As Rabbi Kushner said in his book, When bad things happen to good people, God made us perfect and then took a giant step back in order to give us free will and not force us to be His puppets. We took that free will and screwed up royally, taking all of creation down with us.

[Wondergirl]

But to spend my life striving for heaven, no. I can't do that

I don't either. I already know I'm going there. No striving necessary.

the only way (according to bible fearing folks) to get into heaven is to follow every rule in that man written book called the bible.

They've got it all wrong if that is what they believe.

[sndbay]

No, belief in a God that cares never did anything for me. Now I believe in myself, in fighting for myself and my family. I won't count on God because it's always been clear to me that he won't do a thing for me.

Altenweg,

By your own admission you reject the notion of divine interventions in human affairs, and can determine using reason and observation of the natural world alone, without a need for faith.

So let me say that I am not unsympathic to your experiences in life. I, myself have experienced the lost of my father, and my first husband by cancer. My sister, and I have both, experience sexual lust by evil gain. Both reacting in a similar determined matter to your own, in thinking it was bettter not to tell anyone.
I reason the delusion of thoughts we share, as a lack of knowledge (age fact) in what discipine for each individual should be. And that fact does give the assailant reason to think nothing will be said to stop them.

I would like reason for what has caused our public to lightly put their foot down, and treat the offensive behavior as only perhaps less then normal. What has by all previous experience shown the results of rape should be measured more lightely then the death penalty of an infant by a rape victim. Most usually this reasoning is tipped one way and the other, rather then by a straight line of discernment. (right or wrong)

Tell me by reasoning, if we gave the death penalty to the assailant would it engage a more likely assumption to not risk ing their own life?

My point being that the reasoning that you have found more comfort with rather then surrendering to the will of God, is likely to be God's all knowing ability in permitting us to reap what we have sown.

I have walked both sides of right and wrong,(we all do) and I am not proud of the hurt and pain my path has done, and has suffered. And I believe that is why we needed Christ for our forgiveness. I trust NOW in the One Baptism that gives me a conscience toward God's Will being done. And I pray to never hurt or cause pain for anyone.. that evil will bow down and flee from me.

Because by all reasoning we have all done things we are not pleased to look back on.


Altenweg, you have, and are what you believe "That God has a plan for the universe that is not altered either by God intervening in the affairs of human life "


God does permit you what your heart believes

[ETWolverine]

I believe that God created the universe, with the help of science, then he walked away. I don't believe that he bothers himself with his creation.

Altenweg,

Can you explain WHY G-d would do such a thing?

Why would he create this emmense, incredibly intricate and complex universe, and then walk away from it completely?

Why would the "Watchmaker" make the most incredible watch ever built, and never use it, look at it, check it, wind it, repair it, keep it shiny or show it to others?

That's the part that gets me most about Deism... the idea that a super-intelligent being with ultimate powers could and did create a universe, just to walk away from it after doing so... for absolutely no discernable purpose.

Elliot

[cadillac59]

Altenweg,

Can you explain WHY G-d would do such a thing?

Why would he create this emmense, incredibly intricate and complex universe, and then walk away from it completely?

Why would the "Watchmaker" make the most incredible watch ever built, and never use it, look at it, check it, wind it, repair it, keep it shiny or show it to others?

That's the part that gets me most about Deism... the idea that a super-intelligent being with ultimate powers could and did create a universe, just to walk away from it after doing so... for absolutely no discernable purpose.

Elliot

This points to one of the questions I've raised before, namely why what we think ought to be so must be so? There are many things about the natural world that just don't seem right, that make us cringe and want to rebel. But not liking the way things are doesn't change reality. Why have so many human tragedies happened just when they did? For example, why did AIDS hit the gay community when it did destroying the lives of about half the gay men in my generation? How could something like that happen? That it seemed impossible or crazy at the time didn't change the fact that it happened.

So the point is that not liking the idea of an indifferent god, perhaps a deist version of god, has no logical connection to whether that god does or doesn't exist. Of course I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

[elscarta]

So the point is that not liking the idea of an indifferent god, perhaps a deist version of god, has no logical connection to whether that god does or doesn't exist. Of course I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

But then this can also be applied to many of your previous statements in many other threasds regarding the non existence of a caring God. Just because you don't like the idea of a caring God who allows suffering for reasons which are beyond our understanding has no logical connection to whether that God does, or doesn't exist!

[cadillac59]

But then this can also be applied to many of your previous statements in many other threasds regarding the non existance of a caring God. Just because you don't like the idea of a caring God who allows suffering for reasons which are beyond our understanding has no logical connection to whether that God does, or doesn't exist!

I agree. Which is why I ask that the argument move beyond the childish "It just doesn't seem right" level.

But that doesn't mean you cannot ask better questions like this one of Bertrand Russell's: If you were granted omniscience, omnipotence and millions upon millions of years in which to perfect your world, do you really think the best you could come up with would be the Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan?

[ohsohappy]

I found this and sent this in a message, what do you make of this article?

Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin - Yahoo! News

[elscarta]

But Altenweg gives as the main reason for her believing in Deism "is the suffering in the world, the hardship. If there was a caring God then he wouldn't allow his children to suffer the way they do." This is at the same "It just doesn't seem right" level and so Elliot's question "Can you explain WHY G-d would do such a thing?" is valid and needs to be asnwered.

But that doesn't mean you cannot ask better questions like this one of Bertrand Russell's: If you were granted omniscience, omnipotence and millions upon millions of years in which to perfect your world, do you really think the best you could come up with would be the Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan?

I disagree that this is a better question. It argues that an omniscient and omnipotent God should be able to create a perfect world, and since the world is far from perfect, even after millions upon millions of years, therefore an omniscient and omnipotent God cannot exist. But really what it argues is that "If the ultimate goal of an omniscient and omnipotent God is a perfect world then since the world is far from perfect even after millions upon millions of years such a God has had more than enough time to create a perfect world and therefore cannot exist."

Two problems I see with this question are:
How do we know what are the ultimate goal(s) of an omniscient and omnipotent God?
Millions upon millions of years is infinitesimally small compared to eternity so what is an appropriate time frame for achieving the ultimate goal(s)?

[NeedKarma]

Millions upon millions of years is infinitesimally small compared to eternity so what is an appropriate time frame for achieving the ultimate goal(s)?

That falls right into the "religion is based on faith no facts" argument. If the timeline is long enough then no one will ever the "intended" result.

[elscarta]

That falls right into the "religion is based on faith no facts" argument. If the timeline is long enough then no one will ever the "intended" result.

Not so, I was just trying to point out that God is outside of time and therefore not subject to the same time constraints as we are. Also while it has been nearly 15 billion years since the beginning of the universe, it has not been very long that we have been able to think about God, and our relationship with God is one of the other possible ultimate goals.

[NeedKarma]

I guess my point is that you can promise the masses pretty much anything if it's never going to happen in their lifetime.