[tanequil]

Hello
My story is simply of stupidity. I forgot to pay for a $20 cooker and walked out with it. I was in canadian tire and purchased around $150 of goods. I took all the merchandise home and realized that I did not like one of the electric kettle and came back to return it a few days later. While I was there, I decided to pick up a cooking pot and placed it under the cart. I was with my girlfriend then and we both decided to go return the previously purchased ketttle. After returning the kettle, we forgot to pay for the cooking pot and walked out of the store with the cooking pot. Right after, a lady who identified herself as an store theft personnel approached us and told us to return to the store. She called the cops on us and despite us telling her that it was a simple case of forgetfulness that we didn't pay for the pot and not any intention on our part to steal, she didn't buy it.
The police officer came and we explained the same to him and he let us go without pressing any charges. We were both happy that we didn't get any legal issues thrown our way because of this misunderstanding. However, a few days later I received a letter from dutton brock lawyers (toronto, canada) stating that we need to each pay $350 for the incident otherwise a civil action claim will be started.

We called the lawyer and he said that he will still ask us to pay, but dropped the price to $250. I am a medical student, not a lawyer and I wanted to seek the help of anyone else who has any idea of how to fend off these lawyers that are looking to make easy money $$ from people who make silly mistakes.

Please help.
Thanks

Incident occurred in Kitchener ontario.
Thanks

[tickle]

I think you are being scammed tanequil. The police let you go without pressing charges so where does this lawyer come in? I think you had better visit the Police detachment in Kitchener and ask some questions. There is no way, absolutely no way you should have to pay $350 each to get out of this mess. Or you could just do some checking up yourself, phone Canadian Tire, ask them if this is possible. Take matters into your own hands and find out.

Tick (Canadian)

Edit: Google says these lawyers are, 'a mid sized' insurance litigation?? Don't know what this has to do with theft. There was no loss by Cdn. Tire.

[tanequil]

I don't have the letter with me yet.. but the letter looks a lot like this ( I am in ny right now... but I saw my gfs letter when I visted her last weekend)... I am still waiting for my lettter.

Letter from Law Firm - shoplifting claim for damages

[tickle]

I still say visit the Police detachment and speak to the officer who dealt with you at Cdn.Tire. There were no charges laid, this is unacceptable. Take the letter; hire a lawyer just don't let this happen.

Tick

[tanequil]

Do you guys know of actual cases where civil charges have been dropped somehow? I have tried speaking to the lawyer on one occasion but no luck there.
Hiring a lawyer will cost me $250/hr or so and that might turn out to be more expensive than paying.

Any tips as to what I can do?
Or am I doomed to pay $500 (me and my girlfriend together) for this stupidity?

[s_cianci]

I don't know much about Canadian law but, as tickle has pointed out, the police didn't press charges and the store sustained no loss as the merchandise was recovered and (presumably) put back on the shelf for re-sale. Therefore I fail to see where these lawyers have any kind of claim against you. Have you researched the case cited in the letter, Hudson's Bay v. White? I'd check it out. Also, if I'm reading the letter correctly, this incident occurred in 1999 and is therefore 10 years old ; well past the statute of limitations I'm sure, in any jurisdiction, for a $20 misdemeanor theft. In the letter you are threatened with "civil action." Has this actually occurred? Have you been served with a summons to appear in court? Ultimately there's no real issue until and if you actually are served with a summons. A demand for payment from a lawyer, in and of itself, doesn't constitute any kind of legal proceeding and does not constitute a judgment against you. I'd wait until you're actually served with a summons. If you are, then I'd try to negotiate directly with the store as I'm willing to bet that they'd settle for an amount that's less than over 16 times the amount of the theft in question.

[excon]

Hello t:

I agree with tick. I've agreed with her since the FIRST time we've heard that this regularly happens in Canada. In fact, I've correctly identified it as extortion. If YOU did this same thing, YOU'D go to jail.

Nonetheless, it appears that nobody has stopped these stores from doing what they do... It's SOO bad, that it's creeping into the US, too.

Plus, nobody has been able to produce a Canadian LAW that supports their claim. As far as I know, there IS none.

So, if I was you, I'd tell the stupid lawyer to SUE. If it IS a law, you won't lose more than he's asking of you. But, if it's NOT, the lawyer will run away.

I'd also like you to come back and tell us what you did, and what happened.

excon

[JudyKayTee]

I have asked a Canadian Attorney to respond - in the meantime, it would appear that both the OP and his girlfriend have some serious memory problems.

Hopefully we will get the "Canadian answer" from one of the experts in Canadian law. Enough info was posted for the law firm to probably find the exact circumstances if they want to go through the bother. The circumstances as seen by the store might be telling.

In the meantime I believe the store and law firm CAN do this by law - but I cannot find the law. Further, I believe it's restitution in lieu of arrest for theft. No restitution = charges being filed.

So let's see what the answer is.

[excon]

Further, I believe it's restitution in lieu of arrest for theft. No restitution = charges being filed.

Hello again:

Judy described the CLASSIC definition of extortion.. Gimme money or I'll do something BAD to you.

excon

PS> (edited) Besides, restitution for a $20 cooker, would be about, ohhhh, I don't know, $20. That would be assuming they let them walk away with the cooker, and they didn't do that, of course.

[tanequil]

Also, if I'm reading the letter correctly, this incident occurred in 1999 and is therefore 10 years old ; well past the statute of limitations I'm sure, in any jurisdiction, for a $20 misdemeanor theft. In the letter you are threatened with "civil action." Has this actually occurred?

The letter/link provided above is only an example of the letter I am expecting to receive. The event that occurred with me is only about 21/2 weeks old. Curently, I am sitting in New York right now, so the letter will take a while to reach me. I happen to see the letter in ONtario when I was visiting my girlfriend last weekend. I should be getting the letter sometime this week and I'll try to put up a copy for you to see..

In the letter you are threatened with "civil action." Has this actually occurred? Have you been served with a summons to appear in court? Ultimately there's no real issue until and if you actually are served with a summons. A demand for payment from a lawyer, in and of itself, doesn't constitute any kind of legal proceeding and does not constitute a judgment against you. I'd wait until you're actually served with a summons. If you are, then I'd try to negotiate directly with the store as I'm willing to bet that they'd settle for an amount that's less than over 16 times the amount of the theft in question.

I have *never* been involved with any legal action before, ever! The letter essentially states that they will follow me in small claims court should I not pay them soon and they will also ask me to pay for the attorneys fees and any fees incurred by the lawyer and the defendant (ie $350 + lawyer fees+ etc)



The reality is that while me and my girlfriend know that we did not have any intention to commit any crime, I can also see how the store can believe that we were there to steal primarily because a lot of local students do get caught stealing there. I am not a local from Kitchener and I live in NY... but I am also being thrown into the grind with the rest of the bunch.

[tanequil]

I have asked a Canadian Attorney to respond - in the meantime, it would appear that both the OP and his girlfriend have some serious memory problems.

It is/was a simple error on our part.. we were both talking about our day and in the course of our conversation, forgot to pay. Silly, but not deviant. Had we reached our car and realized that we didn't pay for something, we would have come back and paid... probably laughing at cdn tire at how we could have stolen if we wanted to...

[s_cianci]

So am I to understand that your girlfriend received a letter from a law firm and therefore you expect that one is likewise forthcoming your way? Was the letter you posted the one your girlfriend received or from some other source? I'd try talking to a criminal lawyer from Ontario and find out whether such practices in these situations are common and/or legal. Here in the states you can contact the local bar association's lawyer referral service and get referred to an experienced lawyer for an initial low-cost or free consultation - sometimes the lawyer will talk to you right over the phone. Maybe Canada has a similar arrangement ; it's worth looking into.

[JudyKayTee]

Hello again:

Judy described the CLASSIC definition of extortion.. Gimme money or I'll do something BAD to you.

excon

PS> (edited) Besides, restitution for a $20 cooker, would be about, ohhhh, I dunno, $20. That would be assuming they let them walk away with the cooker, and they didn't do that, of course.

And the charges also include the security guard's time, blah, blah, blah - but I'm sure you know that.

Again - let's let a Canadian law firm make the decision. I'm hoping someone gets back to me tomorrow (Monday).

I don't see it as extortion - of course, I also don't see a plea bargain as extortion. Difference is that this is outside the Court.

[excon]

Difference is that this is outside the Court.

Hello again, Judy:

And, it's in exchange for MONEY. To ME, that's a SIGNIFICANT difference...

Our criminal laws weren't passed so that they can be bartered for CASH. Nope. The ENTIRE process is corrupt. It's llegal, unethical and needs to be STOPPED.

excon

[JudyKayTee]

These aren't "our" laws - these are Canada's laws.

We are getting nowhere with this but just out of curiosity, you are saying that everyone stopped should be arrested and processed?

Or everyone who shoplifts (even if it's a mistake) should simply walk away?

What is your solution?

Keep in mind that my husband owned several Pharmacies and people forgot they had merchandise in their hands/pockets/purses all the time - and the losses came off the top. So maybe I come from a different place when it comes to this "victimless" crime.

[excon]

just out of curiosity, you are saying that everyone stopped should be arrested and processed?

Hello again, Judy:

I'm saying nothing more than if the loss prevention officer catches a shoplifter, he can let him go if he wants to, or he can call the police and press charges.

What he CAN'T do, in my opinion, is THREATEN to press charges if he's not paid money. It's extortion, plain and simple.

excon

[JudyKayTee]

And the wait to hear from a Canadian Attorney goes on -

Oh, incidentally - the loss prevention officer isn't threatening to press charges if HE/SHE isn't paid. It's the store that collects the money.

Good conversation for the discussion board and so I'm going over there to post. Curious to see what other people think. https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/other-...on-402802.html

Then, depending on the results, we can all get on a bus and picket the Canadian government.

[LisaB4657]

I'm not familiar with Canadian law or ethics requirements for attorneys. But in the US, particularly in NJ, there are strict ethics requirements. If an attorney in NJ was using his status as an attorney to threaten legal action that he knew was invalid or illegal he would be suspended and possibly disbarred.

Find out if there is an agency in your province that licenses and oversees attorneys. Contact them to find out if there are similar ethics rules and explain your situation. See what they say.

[tanequil]

How often do canadian attorneys share their insight on this board?

[tanequil]

Any word from the canadian attorney?