[mgjr73]

We bought a house that has a sump pump system in the crawlspace. When I checked it, it looked like it wasn't done correctly. There's a 4" to 6" trench in the whole perimeter, of the crawlspace, and efflorescence present about 6" above the dirt level. Parts of the drain pipes were exposed and I don't see how most of it would flow into the sump pit.

Before I try to fix the drainage and sump system, I'd like to find out if I should be concerned about this efflorescnce because somebody said there's probably water in the cinder block. Is there a way to test it without compromising the integrity of the foundation?

THanks.

[hkstroud]

The efflorescence is the salts out of the cement blocks. If I envision your situation correctly, it doesn't sound like it was done very well. If I were doing this I would trench down to the footer about 12 to 16" wide. Punch a 1/2 inch hole in each cavity of each block just above the footer. Lay nylon fabric in the bottom and sides of the trench. Put a small amount of gravel in the bottom. Just enough to level the trench and slope it toward the sump crock. Lay the drainage pipe, holes down. Cover the pipe with gravel, not quite filling the trench. Fold the nylon fabric over the gravel and then finish filling the trench with gravel.

Water entering from the outside travels through the mortar joints and any cracks in the block. It will then flow down the cavity of the block and settle at the bottom, then seeping through the inner wall of the block. Punching a hole in each cavity lets the water out of the block. The nylon fabric filters out sand and dirt which will clog not only the gravel but eventually the pipe.

But then if it works as it is, I say leave it alone.

[mgjr73]

Thanks for the quick reply. Sounds like a plan. I would say I'm pretty handy and don't mind getting dirty but in your opinion, is it something I could do by myself or should I leave it to the professionals? We just plunked down a huge amount to buy the house and right now we're cash strapped. I've heard working the crawlspace, digging and all would be labor intensive. Right now the only currency I have in abundance is time and sweat.

So if it's going to be DIY, how long do you think it would take to do the sump system and lay vapor barrier on an approximately 900 sqft crawlspace? I'm thinking 6 days, working about 8 hrs a day but I might be under estimating.

If I go Pro, what's the ball park figure? I just got a quote today but I think it's ridiculously high. They want $16,000 to put two pumps and install french drain. The crawlspace is fairly dry, and no sign of standing water or anything.

I'm sure the previous owners had a good reason to put the sump pump in there but from what I've seen so far, there's no sign of any recent water intrusion. I would just like to have a cleaner looking crawlspace and be able to install an effective vapor barrier. It's impossible to do so in its current state.

[speedball1]

Harold's talking abolut a french draoin,(see images) For more information on how to build a french drain click on; french drains how to - Google Search Good luck, Tom

[cyberheater]

This is pretty hard to give much advice about this in any way without seeing a picture or a diagram of what you have now.
Can you find how your drain pipe runs to the sump pump? Harold is correct about having the drain run next to the footer and not up any further. The cinder block can hold water, and that is the reason Harold gave for creating holes in it. It needs to have an easy path to that drain system. Again, it is very difficult to know for sure what will help without having an actually picture.

I would get a couple of estimates and when they come out, ask them questions on what they thinks needs to be done, as well as why. You can get a lot of informaton by both asking them to explain, and doing your own research. If you find someone that has a good plan and experience, it's worth it's wieght in gold.

[mgjr73]

Thanks for the replies. We had continuous light rain overnight and today would be a good day to find out if there's water seepage in the crawlspace. I'll take pictures.

I would get a couple of estimates and when they come out, ask them questions on what they thinks needs to be done, as well as why. You can get a lot of informaton by both asking them to explain, and doing your own research. If you find someone that has a good plan and experience, it's worth it's wieght in gold.

Cyberheater: we did have someone come out yesterday. At first it sounded like experience talking but in the end, it became Sales 101 so I became suspicious. I used to be in sales and attended a lot of sales seminars and the guy was following the rule book step by step. He showed his credentials. The Maryland license he showed me said SALESPERSON on it. But he acted like he was an inspector. I didn't say anything. To his credit, the presentation had a lot of good information but for the most part it it was geared so that buying his product and services with a $16000 price tag would make a lot of sense. We're going to try to get a couple more quotes next weekend, we just hope to get someone who really knows how to fix it and not someone who read it from a sales manual.

By the way we live in Stevensville, MD. Just checked Google Earth and found our elevation to be 12ft above sea level so I'm assuming we have a high water table.

How high is the crawl space, How hard is the ground. How far down would you guess the footer is. Is the grade on the exterior higher than the ground in the crawl space.

Harold: Crawlspace has about 4 ft to 4.5 ft clearance. The ground might be the problem. It's clay and there might be rocks that may need to be broken during re-trenching. My main concern is that clay is difficult to dig. Do you know any technique or tools to make digging easier?

Not sure how far down the footer is. My next step is to invesigate that part.

The grade in the exterior is about 1.5 to 2 feet higher than the crawlspace. One thing we observed though is that the exterior grading is rather flat but we have to test the slope to confirm that.

--------------------------

I spent some time in the crawlspace today and took some pictures.

Good News:
1) The sump pump is functioning properly.
2) No water seepage along North wall. Exposed soil in the trenches were damp, which I think would be normal.


3) No water seepage along South Wall. Exposed soil in the trenches were damp, which I think would be normal.



More to follow...

4) No water seepage along West Wall. Exposed soil in the trenches were damp, which I think would be normal.






More to follow...

Bad News:
1) 3 pockets of water along the E wall.


More to follow

2) Looks like previous owner, for some reason, decided not to finish the job. Center sump drain and East side sump drain is sitting on top of the dirt. The East side drain does not cover East perimeter and only spans along N wall.







More to follow...

Note mystery hole on picture below. There's actually two, both about 2 inches diameter. One vertical (don't know how deep it goes) and one horizontal (don't know how far it goes). Could it be a snake tunnel?

This pocket was taken on July 25, 2009...

Same pocket taken today September 27, 2009 after continuous light rain overnight...



Any thoughts?

[hkstroud]

High water table may be the reason for the crawl space drainage that now exist. Real hard to say how difficult it would be to do the digging in the crawl space. How high is the crawl space, How hard is the ground. How far down would you guess the footer is. Is the grade on the exterior higher than the ground in the crawl space.

The price quoted does seem a little high, given that it is a crawl space. On two occasions, I have recently been ask to do restoration work after basement water proofers were called in. Of course that involved cutting concrete, trenching,installing drainage pipe and sump pumps, restoring the concrete floor. I don't think their price was quite that high.

I had the pleasure of restoring wall studding, drywall, painting and tiling. I was quite impressed with the work of the last company. Well, that is every thing except their brick work. Home owner had them build up a brick window well a couple of rows. Looked like a 7th grader did it. I was ask by the home owner to, shall we say, review the proposal before the work was done. That gave me the opportunity to advise the salesman, a rather nice young man, that if he left me with floors to grind down or a mess to clean up it was coming out of his pay check. He wanted to refer me to other customers for restoration, indicating that they worked in a rather wide area. I'm too old and to slow to work very far form home.

Company name is B-DRY, don't know if they go as far a Bay bridge.

Tell us a little more about grading and crawl space height. Footer drains on the exterior may be best thing.

[mgjr73]

I think my picture links did not upload :(...

Here's the photostream on flickr:

center sump drain on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Thanks!

I'll try to attach the pics this time, see if it works...

Bad News:
1) 3 pockets of water along the E wall.


More to follow


On post #16, if you notice the top photo, it was taken on July 25 so this dip right here doesn't always have water in it.

I spent some time in the crawlspace today and took some pictures.

Good News:
1) The sump pump is functioning properly.
2) No water seepage along North wall. Exposed soil in the trenches were damp, which I think would be normal.
N wall sewage pipe on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

3) No water seepage along South Wall. Exposed soil in the trenches were damp, which I think would be normal.
SE corner on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
SWEST corner on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

more to follow...

Re-linked photos!

Let me know if the link to Flickr would suffice to give you a visual aid, if not, Ill try to repost my previous messages and attach the photos.

I'm obviously having trouble using the site's interface. I'm sorry if this is starting to look like one mishmash after another... I hope this works!

Harold: Crawlspace has about 4 ft to 4.5 ft clearance. The ground might be the problem. It's clay and there might be rocks that may need to be broken during re-trenching. My main concern is that clay is difficult to dig. Do you know any technique or tools to make digging easier?

Not sure how far down the footer is. My next step is to invesigate that part.

The grade in the exterior is about 1.5 to 2 feet higher than the crawlspace. One thing we observed though is that the exterior grading is rather flat but we have to test the slope to confirm that.

--------------------------

I spent some time in the crawlspace today and took some pictures.

Good News:
1) The sump pump is functioning properly.

2) No water seepage along North wall. Exposed soil in the trenches were damp, which I think would be normal.
N wall sewage pipe on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

3) No water seepage along South Wall. Exposed soil in the trenches were damp, which I think would be normal.
SE corner on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
SWEST corner on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

4) No water seepage along West Wall. Exposed soil in the trenches were damp, which I think would be normal.
west wall on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
W wall on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
W all efflo on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
W wall trench on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Bad News:
1) 3 pockets of water along the E wall.
NE walls on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

2) Looks like previous owner, for some reason, decided not to finish the job. Center sump drain and East side sump drain is sitting on top of the dirt. The East side drain does not cover East perimeter and only spans along N wall.







Note mystery hole on picture below. There's actually two, both about 2 inches diameter. One vertical (don't know how deep it goes) and one horizontal (don't know how far it goes). Could it be a snake tunnel?
mystery hole on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

This pocket was taken on July 25, 2009...
E wall water line 2 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Same pocket taken today September 27, 2009 after continuous light rain overnight...
E wall water line 3 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

E wall water line on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Any thoughts?

[speedball1]

Mgir 73, When you post you don't have to follow with one post on top of another.
It takes up space and clutters up the page. Simply add what you have to say on your last post I just spent 15minutes cleaning up this thread. Yhank you. Tom

[mgjr73]

Sorry about that, Tom... and thanks for cleaning it up for me. I just need to get used with the sites interface, especially the part where you attach pictures.

[hkstroud]

Base on what you have said and the pictures, I've formed the impression that your crawl space is basically a hole in the ground. Naturally any water soaking into the ground is going to try to find its way toward that hole. For some reason I have also form the impression that you house has some age on it. Because it is a crawl space and not a basement no water proofing that was done to the foundation walls when the house was built. If any drainage piping of the foundation was done when the house was built it has probably long ago been blocked with sand and silt. During periods of heavy or prolonged rain you probably do have standing water in the crawl space. Previous attempts to provide drainage appear to be rather haphazard. The soil in the crawl space doesn't appear to be clay but what I'm seeing may just be disturbed soil by the attempts to provide drainage.

The water supply line appears to be under the footer. Based on the curve of the piping I would guess the footer is 12 to 16 inches down. That is only a guess of course. I think I would try to get the standing water out of the hole and scratch around to see how deep the footer is.
Hard to tell if the standing water at the sewage line is water coming in from the outside or water that has been pumped there hoping that it will drain out through the hole made for the sewer pipe. I can't imagine why a sump line would run there unless someone thought it would drain out through that opening.

Digging in the ground is never easy. First thing seems to be to determine how deep you would have to dig. Right now it looks like putting in crawl space drainage might be a doable manual task. If you hit some hard clay you may be able to use an electric pavement breaker (electric jack hammer) to break it up. Might not have enough head room though. A pneumatic air chisel could also be use but it would be kind of small. One thing to small the other too big.

The real fix of course would be to install footer drains around the exterior. That appears to be beyond a manual task however. Even then you may need the crawl space drainage.

Not previously discussed but the first thing to do is to look at piping gutter down spouts if not already done and doing any grading that could improve the run off rain water.

[mgjr73]

Harold: Thanks again! The house is built 1995. Modular, Cape Cod style. Your opinions and impressions really help and somehow is building up my confidence that I can go the DIY route, that is if things don't go well with the Pro's we've contacted for a second and third opinion. It will basically come down to whether we can afford their services.

As far as that pit where the main water line is, if it doesn't go underneath the foundation, chances are the bore a hole at the footer and that's where the water gets in so it is really imperative to find out where it leads.

So here's my plan just in case...
1) Determine how far down the footer is.
2) Plan french drain lay out and slope (what's the ideal slope?)
3) Install french drain (so basically, redo the sump pump and drain system)
4) Level dirt and install vapor barrier.
5) Create a positive grade at the exterior
6) Extend gutters as practicable

I just have to plan that this may take more than the 6 days I have envisioned. I don't think I can spend more than two hours at a time down there especially during the digging phase.

[speedball1]

I just need to get used with the sites interface, especially the part where you attach pictures.

No problem! Just trying to keep the page tidy. You pictures came through but I thought I'd pass this along. To Send Attachments
Make your post and scroll down to Manage Attachments click on that and then click Browse This will allow you to get into your computer and retrieve your picture and upload it to The Plumbing Page.
Good luck, Tom