[Howie628]

I am looking to replace my heating and cooling system with a Rheem 13 SEER 4 ton heat pump and matching indoor unit. I have received quotes ranging from $5500 to $7500. Big gap, so I started doing some searching on line. I have found the equipment that has been quoted to me on line for just over $2000. That leaves me thinking that the installers are raking in a whopping $3000 to $5000. Is this normal. I understand there are some other peripheals that the tech will have to purchase (410A etc.) but still. When confronted with the fact that I found the equipment for the price that I did, one tech told me that the Mfg. would not honor the warranty on the equipment if I purchased it over the internet. Is this correct. Has anyone out there had any experience with this. I emailed the Mfg. and the company that is selling the equipment and have not had a response back yet. Someone please advise.

Thanks

[hvac1000]

It costs a lot to operate a business today and the manufactures do not want to get stuck paying for warranty parts for your mistakes. All the manufactures I know of want only dealers who are EPA certified selling and installing there equipment. All warranty repairs must also be made by the dealer as well as any defective part returned for credit must come from a dealer. In order to be a dealer you must attend special training by the manufacturer so they feel confident to allow you to sell an service there equipment.

Costs of doing the HVAC biz

As to mark up or costs of business, keep in mind a quality contractor that will be there for you when you need him may have some or all of the following business expenses:

Not limited to;

401K
Coffee
Health Insurance
Holiday Pay
Office Benefits
Sick Pay
Uniforms
Vacation Pay
Air Conditioning Equipment Maintenance
Building Repairs
Cleaning Service
Electric Utilities
Facility Mortgage Payments
Furniture
Gas/Oil Bill
Landscaping
Office Rent
Parts Storage Racks
Security System
Shop Tools
Callbacks
Miscellaneous Hardware
Air Conditioning License
Answering Service
Bad Debt
Business Licenses
Cash Reserves
Certification Tests
Chamber of Commerce Dues
Collections
Company Picnic
Dealer Meetings
Employment Testing
Help Wanted Advertising
Interest Expense
Internet Access
Inventory
Inventory Shrinkage
Invoices
Legal Services
Liability Insurance
Management Training
Mobile Phone Charges
Mobile Phones
Office Training
Pagers
Property Insurance
Recycling
Subscriptions
Tax preparation
Technician Training
Trade Association Membership
Brochures
Charitable Contributions
Customer Satisfaction Surveys
Door Hangers
Home And Garden Shows
Magnets
Newsletter
Newspaper Advertising
Other Advertising
Outdoor Advertising
Patches
Radio Advertising
Sales Commissions
Warranties
Website
Yellow Pages
Youth Sports Team Sponsorships
Accounting
Calculators And Adding Machines
Computer System Maintenance
Computers
Copier
Copies
Fax Machine
Files And File Cabinets
Network
Office Supplies
Phone Bill
Phone System
Postage
Postal Equipment
Printing
Software
Stamps And Pads
Telephone Bill
Telephone Equipment
Training Equipment
Trash And Disposal
Water Bill
Call Taker
Dispatcher
Employee Incentives
Employee Pay
Management
Office Staff
Receptionist
Technician Pay
Federal Taxes
Local School Taxes
Local Taxes
Municipal Property Tax
Other property Taxes
Sales Tax
Social Security Taxes
State Taxes
Unemployment Insurance
Worker's Comp
Gasoline
Ladders
Radios
Tires
Tools
Truck Decals
Truck Depreciation
Truck Insurance
Truck Inventory
Truck Ladder Racks
Truck Maintenance
Truck Shelves
Trucks
Profit
Tool Insurance
Truck Plates
Life Insurance
Equipment Insurance
Warranty Expenses
Code updates
Other trade book updates
Permits
Dental / Vision Insurance
Equipment Consumables
Inventory Tax
Research & Development

[Howie628]

I am fully aware of what it costs to operate a small business. I appreciate the fefresher coarse though :-) What I was hoping for is for someone with past experience with this situation (purchase equipment from an online dealer and have a CERTIFIED HVAC tech install it), or someone with direct knowledge of this situation to give me a straight answer. Does the mfg honor the warranty's when the equipment is purchased on the Internet, or not. I don't need a thesis on why the HVAC business needs to mark up the equipment so high. I understand that. They have to make a living and keep their business running. They will make a living when they charge me 1500 to 2000 dollars for a day and a half of work to install the equipment. I also have to survive and feel it appropriate to research all my options for saving what looks like 2000 to 3000 dollars by buying the equipment on line. Someone just please tell me if the mfg will honor the warranty in this situation as long as a certified tech installs it(not myself). Thanks in advance.

[hvac1000]

Does the mfg honor the warranty's when the equipment is purchased on the Internet, or not. NO unless purchased and INSTALLED by a professional HVAC dealer who is a dealer for the specific manufacturer of the equipment you buy. If you want to hear that again call the manufacturer and let them explain then get them to send it to you in a letter for your records.

A certified tech means nothing since they are not a dealer for the manufacturer who's equipment you bought. I have a vast experience turning down warranty claims since I am sent out sometimes by different manufactures to settle a situation.

What you have going on here is a supply house advertises equipment on lets say Ebay. They sell you the equipment then they tell you if the parts go bad to call them and they will take care of the part. This does not work very well since the manufacturer knows that game. A few warranty parts might slip past the factory but eventually they will want the warranty cards returned along with a invoice for the purchase and the install by one of there dealers. This is when the problems start.

My best advice is for you to call the warranty division at the equipment manufactures home office and as I said before get it all in a letter for your future reference.

Now if you do not believe me read it here for yourself.

((Neither warranty applies to, and no warranty is offered by Goodman

on, any unit ordered over the Internet.))

Read it all here.

http://www.goodmanmfg.com/Portals/0/pdf/PWCACHPCA.pdf

NOTE: a dealer is who sells equipment to a homeowner.

A distributer sells equipment to the dealer

The above warranty is standard in the industry.

[Fr_Chuck]

And what you get is the labor for any warranty work, normally in our company not a heating and air, the manufactor only warranties the equipment, not the labor, and they will also normally agrue the warranty is from improperty install or repair if not done though a authorised dealer.

So if you can have the time to take a part off the unit, mail it back to the factory, wait for them them to decide if it is warranty or not, and maybe mail you a new part, then great

Also included is the installers liablity to install, what if he hooks it up and your house burns down, guess who will be sued.

Also seldom will you find any repair place that will install equipment that you don't buy from them, and they will not warranty their install, so if they hook it all up and it does not run, they blame the equipment and still want to be paid.

[Howie628]

Thanks gentlemen for your advise. I definitely will take all of that under consideration.

With that said... let me float a scenario out there. Lets say that I have an independent HVAC contractor that is willing to purchase the equipment that I have found and then just charge me the price of the equipment plus his installation fee. Does this not then protect the warranty, as a certified and licensed contractor actually bought and installed the equipment. This contractor specializes in the brand that I am looking at. Not trying to cheat the HVAC companies out there who practice honestly and work hard, but am trying to save a couple thousand dollars, as I work hard for my money as well. I am not or would not ever attempt to install this equipment myself and have the upmost respect for those who are skilled in doing so. I am just trying to make this affordable for my situation. Ido intend to have a licensed HVAC contractor hook it up. I go to church with one who was recently laid off from a big heating and cooling corp. and has gone into business for himself and willing to work with me. What are your thoughts here.

[mygirlsdad77]

If he has gone into business for himself, he will soon find he needs to get his equiptment through a supplier. Even if he purchases it online, warranty will still be void. Doesn't matter who purchased it online, warranty will most likely be void. If he has all of the licensing and insurances that are required, he should have no problem setting up an acount with a reputable supplier.

Purchasing certain things online works well, however furnaces is not on of these item... There is a reason they are so much cheaper online(no one will stand behind them, not the seller, not the manufacturer, not the installer). If you plan to purchase it online, just hope it works without any troubles for a very long time,, and know that if something does go wrong, you will have to foot the bill to have it fixed.

I personally have worked on quite a few customer purchased equiptment, supposedly "professionally" installed. And I usually got the call shortly after install because it "wont work" They always ask if its under warranty,, and of course I say no. I didn't sell the epuiptment, or install it, but they want me to spends hours in paperwork and phone time trying to get the thing warrantied(at my expense? ). Plain and simle,, just doesn't work that way. I wish you the best of luck with your project.

[hvac1000]

I go to church with one who was recently laid off from a big heating and cooling corp. and has gone into business for himself and willing to work with me. What are your thoughts here.

Did he spend big bucks for workers comp insurance or are you going to let him take you to court to pay his lifetime doctor bills when he gets hurt on your job. If he gets killed on your job his wife will own your home!

Is he a fly by night because who is going to fix your stuff when he moves out of town to get a job.

These are just a couple of items with many more.

I have met people like you before and I understand you want to save money but you will get what you pay for and nothing more no matter who buys and installs what.

I would NEVER install customers equipment or service it for that matter unless I was helping one of my HVAC friends and that would be more for fun than profit. It is not worth the headache.

[Howie628]

Thanks Mygirlsdad77. I appreciate your insight and reccomentdations and all with compassion and without sarcasm. It can be done HVAC100.

The installer I am speaking of does have an account with a local supplier. It was I who initiated looking at prices on line, and he did warn me to check out the warranty circumstances. He is a long time friend of mine(35 years) and has been in the business for nearly 30 years(not for himself until recently as I noted earlier). I was simply looking at all my options and looking for more information on this warranty situation in order to make an informed decision.

HVAC1000 I would like to see you for once answer a question without being sarcastic and condescending. I don't know what you mean by you "have met people like [me] before". You dont know me, but if you are referring to honest hard working people just trying to make it without being taken advantage of by people like YOU, then maybe you have met people like me. I get on here for good, honest, straight forward answers. Not smart elic sarcastic answers by people like you who seem to only want to protect and defend your HVAC "friends" while stroking your own ego. So do me a favor and don't answer anymore of my posts. Thanks all others for your genuine professional help.

[hvac1000]

You make me laugh and that is a good thing. When you stop trying to cheat you might find a deal. LOL The problem is you just do not like my honest opinion and that is OK also. You were given facts and links to back them up and I guess this destroyed your idea of buying the equipment cheap and still having a warranty. Sorry for your misunderstanding of the truths I told you and trust me I will have no desire to answer any more of your posts since you just cannot handle the factual information.

[Howie628]

Facts I can deal with. Sarcasm and condescending attitudes I cant. I appreciate your factual information but not your arrogant manner in trying to relay it. I just find it hard to understand why you have to use the tone that you use. Thank you for the information, maybe just try to be a little less arrogant... thats all. For example... to accuse someone of trying to cheat when all they are doing is trying to gather as much info as possible and trying to save as much money as possible, is not cheating. It is being a wise consumer. Nevertheless... I am not on here to argue, so as far as I am concerned this conversation is over. I will take the info I have gathered and now make a better informed decision.

[hvac1000]

I just find it hard to understand why you have to use the tone that you use

My successful 37 man HVAC corporation taught me to be who I am and act the way I do and I never had a problem communicating my information to any of my employees.

For example...to accuse someone of trying to cheat when all they are doing is trying to gather as much info as possible and trying to save as much money as possible, is not cheating. It is being a wise consumer.

Cheating is how you take it. While you are trying to save as much money as you can you will be the first one crying like a baby when your system turns to junk. You will blame the manufacturer and whoever installed it and all along you will never admit you got just what you paid for. What you are doing is not being a wise customer. Not once did you mention a manual J or a manual D for the work you are doing. You never just replace the old equiptment that is there now with the same size. You always recalculate but that will not bother you since if oversized you will be cold and clammy in the summer.

Nevertheless...I am not on here to argue, so as far as I am concerned this conversation is over.

I do not argue I just state facts as I see them. I tried to steer you clear of making the same mistake so many have made before you. Once you buy your equipment it is yours and most heating companys will not want to service it unless you pay the big bucks for labor and the standard markup for parts since the parts will not be under warranty. The HVAC industry is not like car manufactures where you can take you chevrolet to get fixed at any of the 3000 dealers. HVAC dealers service only what they sell unless as I said before you pay the big bucks. A lot of dealers that do work on equipment that a customer purchased will sock-it-to-them since they figure they can afford it since they bought the equipment so cheap.

Once in a while you will get an outdoor unit that will be DOA with the compressor usually being at fault and guess what you will get to pay for it. Now all of this has been said to you to try and make it clear. I never spoke to you in a condescending manner as you say and all of it was said to try to drive home the fact that you are going about your HVAC system in the wrong way. This is just the facts.
Below is a little information about how to pick a good quality contractor so you do not make the big mistake.

[Missouri Bound]

Howie, wherever you buy the equipment from can tell you up front what the warranty status is. I wouldn't relyon heresay or other peoples experience. Call the manufacturer as well. If these products are offered for sale to the public online, there must be some tech support and warranty information available to you. And I don't think you are cheating by looking into this yourself. Many businesses have a great amount of overhead, as HVAC has detailed, but they created their own circumstance. If you decide to hire a contractor, get as many bids as you are comfortable with, and please get references. Pricing isn't everything, but word of mouth references are priceless.
Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

[Howie628]

Thanks Missouri. I will keep you posted so maybe my experience might help someone else. I don't see researching this as cheating either, so thanks for your words of encouragement.

HVAC, cheating is NOT how I take it. It is what you accused me of when you stated "when you stop trying to cheat you might find a deal. LOL" Reread your post. This was my point earlier. You spend so much time and energy trying to degrade anyone else's opinion other than your own that you don't even remember half the stuff you spew. Your facts become lost in the mountain of arrogance and attitude, to the point that I don't know how anyone can take you serious. I have wasted enough of my time with you on here, but I am sure that you will have something to say as you always seem to want to have the last chance to degrade someone. If you would leave out the attitude and just try to be factual and polite, you just might be useful on here. Thanks and I hope you have a blessed day.

[gooddealbad]

I was looking around and found this post about home owners buying furnaces with air conditioners and then having it installed by someone else. I did just that about 1 year ago and have had nothing but problems and great expense. The furnace and air conditioner worked fine and the person that put it in did a really good job but after about 3 months the air conditioner broke. I called the man back that put it in and he said the compresser was bad and if I would get a replacement he would put it in for 400.00 which sounded correct since I had called around to check. Then the problems really started. I called the company where I got the unit and explained the situation. They said they would look into it. They never called back so I called them again. They said to send them the furnace companys bill from where they cahrged me to put it in and I did then a week later they said they needed a service call bill stating that the compressor was bad so I sent that in. At this point 6 weeks went by and I finall called them back only to find out that the guarantee on the furnace and air conditioner that I bought was voided since I did not have one of there licensed dealers install the stuff. I told them I sent in the guarantee card but they said it made no difference.

My son told me to get a lawyer and I did but after charging me 500.00 he said that the manufacturer was within their rights to void the warranty and the lawyer said he has been involved in 3 other situations like this with guarantee problems with heating stuff and that the one he took to court he lost since the warranty stated the terms of the guarantee which I failed to follow by hiring someone who was not there deaqler or who was not listed with the company that makes the furnaces and air conditioners. They also said that since I bought the furnace with air conditionering from a innernet sales company that also makes the guarantee no good.This situation has been a giant headache for me so I thought I would mention my problem here to help other people who are thinking of doing the same thing someday.

[mygirlsdad77]

gooddealbad. Thanks for sharing your personal experience with this. Lesson learned I'm sure. This is what not only can, but usually does happen in these type of situations. This is why it pays to get your epuiptment from a professional installer. Then the installer will take care of all the warranty paperwork and phone calls etc. It may be a flawed system, but suppliers and manufactures will listen to a licensed installer, where as they will usually give the average homeowner the runaround. Im not saying its right, but it is what it is. And I can't say I disagree with it completely, as it keeps my family and I fed. Warranty is a tricky thing, takes a lot of time to get anything warrantied. And you will not find anyone that will waste their time for free(when they have many other things they could be doing that they are getting paid for) to get you warranty on something they didn't sell you. Look at it this way. If you buy a two year old chevy from a used car dealer, and it is still under warranty for a year, try taking it to a licensed chevy dealer and see how quick they jump to fix it for free under warranty(when you didn't buy it from them). Even though you own a chevy, its under warranty, and you took it to a chevy dealer, you will definitely not be on the top of their list to fix your car or truck. They will be working on the cars and trucks that they sold, and put you off as long as they possibly can. Oh what a wonderful world we live in. But like I said, it is what it is, and people like you sharing their experiences with us, may save somebody else from having to go through it. Thanks again. Lee.

[bk2000p]

Actually what we need a another HVAC manufacturer, may be from Asia. Who franchises, and setup a service shops all around USA to sale their products directly to consumers. Provide them reasonable cost installation services and support at local level. I think one Furnace and AC unit installation take about 8 to 12 hours and about $120/hr should cost about $1000 to $1500 over and above the equipment cost. I think, the current low end (home owner) HVAC equipment distributions and installation costs i.e. more than 3K are unjustifiable. Here one of the HVAC contractor has tried to justify his higher cost because of his royal business model. Once such corporation exist he will be out of business.
I am sure that the similar business arrangement is on the way to bring down high price contractors.

[wmproop]

Maybe it would be better for the people that loves the way that Asia,Japan,china does business so well ,they should just move to the favorite country of their choice