[galveston]

Nope.

Caddie posted "Why not Deism?"

So far, no one has put forth even one advantage of being a Deist.

Of course, you are entitled to your own ideas.

But why be a Deist? You get to the same bottom line as the Atheist.

I think I have answered the OP question of why NOT Deism.

[cadillac59]

Nope.

Caddie posted "Why not Deism?"

So far, no one has put forth even one advantage of being a Deist.

Of course, you are entitled to your own ideas.

But why be a Deist? You get to the same bottom line as the Atheist.

I think I have answered the OP question of why NOT Deism.

But religion is suppose to be about what is true, not what sounds the best or what we'd like to be true. Deism makes the most sense, I suggested, because it satisfied first cause arguments many believe are necessitated by the improbability of the universe having come into existence on its own, or the impossibility of something coming from nothing, and also comported with history, both modern and ancient, which seems to lend support to the notion that if there is a god he or it appears uninvolved in human affairs.

I don't understand your remarks about the "bottom line" for deism being the same as atheism (you mean I can do whatever I want without having to worry about upsetting god?).

[cadillac59]

Cadillac,

I can only answer this question for myself. I can't answer why OTHER people aren't deists.

Deism is the belief that G-d created the world/universe and then stepped back away from the day to day operation of that world/universe, and allows it to operate on its own without direct intervention.

For me, it comes down to this... I have seen and experienced too much to think that G-d is not involved intimately with my life. I have experienced too many "coincidences" in my life to think that G-d isn't there. I've had my own life saved too many times to think that the universe is operating on "automatic". As an EMT, I've helped too many other people that I really didn't have the power to help on my own to think that there wasn't someone "out there" helping me do it. I've both experienced too much tragedy and avoided too much tragedy to think that anything is happenstance. I've done and seen too much to believe that the world is that random.

Is it a scientific answer to your question? Nope. But that's MY reason for not being a Deist.

As for your questions about Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, etc... there's a good book out there called "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People" by Harold Kushner. I don't agree with everything in the book (in fact, there are some parts of the book I strongly disagree with), but he does a good job of exploring the nature of good and evil in the world and why tragedies happen, and why G-d acts or doesn't act to prevent things from occuring. It might help answer some of your questions. Or it might just leave you with more questions. But I think it's worth a read.

Elliot

Yes, I hear that a lot from theists: certain things happened to the believer (always good it seems) in such a way and at such a time to lead to the belief that god must have had something to do with it (saving the day, whatever it may have been). Of course when bad things happened and god seemed silent were not those times just conveniently forgotten? You really have to wonder. Isn't it then all just so much wishful thinking?

As I said (or maybe intimated) before, if you really looked a human history you'd have to come to the conclusion that there really is no pattern to it such as to suggest god is involved. I just don't see it. If anything the pattern appears to be non-involvement and disinterest. There's more evidence for that than the contrary.

[inthebox]

Nope.

Caddie posted "Why not Deism?"

So far, no one has put forth even one advantage of being a Deist.

Of course, you are entitled to your own ideas.

But why be a Deist? You get to the same bottom line as the Atheist.

I think I have answered the OP question of why NOT Deism.

One of life's biggest questions is, "why suffering?"

I think atheists will have to say, that is just the way it is and so you deal with it the best you can. Depressing in my opinion :( You live, you die, what is the purpose?

I think it would be harder to be a Deist actually. To believe there is a god or gods, that either 1] don't care that there is suffering, or are powerless to do anything about it, or 3] get some enjoyment out of it :eek: Imagine growing up with a parent with this parenting style.

I don't see any advantage at all.


G&P

[ScottGem]

Nope.

Caddie posted "Why not Deism?"

So far, no one has put forth even one advantage of being a Deist.

Of course, you are entitled to your own ideas.

But why be a Deist? You get to the same bottom line as the Atheist.

I think I have answered the OP question of why NOT Deism.

Not even close. If you think no one has put forth an advantage of Deism, its because you are ignoring them because they don't fit with your view of things.

The main advantage of Deism (and the reason why its NOT the same as Atheism) is that it answers questions about the creation of the universe that Atheism doesn't answer. As I said in my first response, for me the complexity of the design of our physical universe is so great that I find it hard to believe that it resulted from coincidence. That complexity leads me to believe there was some intelligence guiding the creation.

On the other hand I see no conclusive (for me) evidence that the intelligence that created our universe has done anything since then. That this intelligence is watching over us, listening to our prayers, answering some, meddling in in our lives, etc. is just not believable to me. Therefore, Deism satisfies my logical mind by explaining the complexity of the universe and allows me to reject organized religion as man made.

While religion is largely a matter of opinion, the post I quote above contains statements of fact that are just plain wrong. As I just pointed out the advantage of Deism HAS been stated, so saying that no one has done so is wrong. Second, there is a major difference between Deism and Atheism. The Atheist does not believe in any god at all, while the Deist believes in a being that created the universe. And Finally you have not answered the question of why NOT Deism, but rather explained why Deism is wrong for YOU. There is a difference there and my issue with your posts here is based on the fact that you don't seem to understand that difference.

[ETWolverine]

Yes, I hear that a lot from theists: certain things happened to the believer (always good it seems) in such a way and at such a time to lead to the belief that god must have had something to do with it (saving the day, whatever it may have been). Of course when bad things happened and god seemed silent were not those times just conveniently forgotten? You really have to wonder. Isn't it then all just so much wishful thinking?

Oh, I've had bad things happen too. People that I have cared for have died. I've lost jobs. I've lost money. I'm going through a rather nasty divorce right now... all bad things.

And yet I have experienced a level of support, even at the worst of times, that was from a source that I cannot identify physically. Sure there were people who supported me, but there was always something else... just the right twist of fate when I needed it. The right song playing on the radio when I needed it most, the comment from a complete stranger that changed my perspective... whatever. These things could NOT have been random. They were too well-targeted. The only thing that explains it to me is that there is SOMEONE working in the background. Even when the bad stuff happened, G-d was there. He may have had a reason that he couldn't or wouldn't keep that bad thing from happening, but He was there to support me and comfort me when it did.

Call it wishfull thinking if you'd like. But wishfull thinking has a power too... "miraculous" things can be accomplished through the power of wishful thinking. That too is one of G-d's tools.

As I said (or maybe intimated) before, if you really looked a human history you'd have to come to the conclusion that there really is no pattern to it such as to suggest god is involved. I just don't see it. If anything the pattern appears to be non-involvement and disinterest. There's more evidence for that than the contrary.

I disagree. Perhaps the fact that my training and profession is as an analyst allows me to see patterns that you might miss. Or perhaps it is my religious upbringing that allows me to see the patterns that those without that upbringing might miss. Or perhaps it's the fact that I enjoy studying history and seek patterns in all areas of history... it's a knack that I have after years of study. Perhaps looking for patterns is a skill that must be learned, it doesn't just happen. Just a thought.

Elliot

[NeedKarma]

Or perhaps it is my religious upbringing that allows me to see the patterns that those without that upbringing might miss.

That's the odd part for me. I had a religious upbringing but I didn't see any "value" (for lack of a better word) in it. I had no problems managing my life without worshipping something nor do I hear voices guiding me. It's funny how similar events can have different outcomes.

[Capuchin]

The main advantage of Deism (and the reason why its NOT the same as Atheism) is that it answers questions about the creation of the universe that Atheism doesn't answer. As I said in my first response, for me the complexity of the design of our physical universe is so great that I find it hard to believe that it resulted from coincidence. That complexity leads me to believe there was some intelligence guiding the creation.

And you're saying that the intelligence is eternal, or that it itself must have had a creator? Do you think that the intelligence must be at least as complex as its creation?

[galveston]

I don't understand your remarks about the "bottom line" for deism being the same as atheism (you mean I can do whatever I want without having to worry about upsetting god?).

What I mean is that whether there is no God or whether He cannot be known or contacted amounts to the same thing.

You still haven't shown any benefit to being a Deist.

I doubt many people are ever going to embrace it.

[NeedKarma]

What's the benefit to believing in a god?

[ScottGem]

And you're saying that the intelligence is eternal, or that it itself must have had a creator? Do you think that the intelligence must be at least as complex as its creation?

I don't know if that intelligence is eternal or not. And yes, there is the argument of whether that intelligence had its own creator. But that just leads one around in circles.

You do pose an interesting question about the intelligence being as complex as the creation. I'm not sure if I can answer that. I often feel that our universe is a plaything. That there are other universes created by the same intelligence or siblings of it as playgrounds to watch what develops. Some playgrounds may have been cast aside as too boring, others remain of intense interest. If the intelligence is continuing to monitor their toy, they are more likely to be fomenting the tragedy and other things just to see how their creation will deal with them.

I do not believe I can know or understand such an intelligence, only that I believe one existed.

[cadillac59]

Oh, I've had bad things happen too. People that I have cared for have died. I've lost jobs. I've lost money. I'm going through a rather nasty divorce right now... all bad things.

And yet I have experienced a level of support, even at the worst of times, that was from a source that I cannot identify physically. Sure there were people who supported me, but there was always something else... just the right twist of fate when I needed it. The right song playing on the radio when I needed it most, the comment from a complete stranger that changed my perspective... whatever. These things could NOT have been random. They were too well-targeted. The only thing that explains it to me is that there is SOMEONE working in the background. Even when the bad stuff happened, G-d was there. He may have had a reason that he couldn't or wouldn't keep that bad thing from happening, but He was there to support me and comfort me when it did.

Call it wishfull thinking if you'd like. But wishfull thinking has a power too... "miraculous" things can be accomplished through the power of wishful thinking. That too is one of G-d's tools.



I disagree. Perhaps the fact that my training and profession is as an analyst allows me to see patterns that you might miss. Or perhaps it is my religious upbringing that allows me to see the patterns that those without that upbringing might miss. Or perhaps its the fact that I enjoy studying history and seek patterns in all areas of history... it's a knack that I have after years of study. Perhaps looking for patterns is a skill that must be learned, it doesn't just happen. Just a thought.

Elliot

When you talk about that level of support you cannot seem to identify or feeling someone was in the background is something I can relate to as well. Yes, I know what you mean and I think that's the reason I've been reluctant to fully embrace atheism.

I like what is supposedly inscribed at Sigmund Freud's memorial in Vienna, "The Voice of reason is still but very persistent."

[galveston]

What's the benefit to believing in a god?

You haven't been paying attention. I posted that earlier.

Besides, that is not the question of the OP.

[Alty]

What I mean is that whether there is no God or whether He cannot be known or contacted amounts to the same thing.

You still haven't shown any benefit to being a Deist.

I doubt many people are ever going to embrace it.

I'm a Deist.

I have to ask, what benefits are their to being a Christian?

Scott said it best and covered the Deist belief very well.

I am not the typical Deist. I do believe in prayer, not as a way to request anything, because I don't believe that God listens to or answers prayers, but as a spiritual renewal, cleansing of the soul. That's the best way I can describe it. It's more like meditation then prayer. Besides, some of my Lutheran background stuck with me. ;)

There are more Deists then you know. As for embracing it, we're not a religion, we don't have a church or Sunday services, we don't ask for donations so we can build gold statues and have stained glass windows. We have a belief system, and that's it. We don't solicit people to accept our beliefs, there's no need. We don't need more sheep in our flock, because there isn't a flock. We don't have preachers, we don't preach.

I know that you'll counter this with "well you're preaching now". No, I'm not, not at all. The OP asked about Deism and I'm simply here to express why I am a Deist.

We believe what we believe, live our lives the best we can, being the best people we can be, and that's it.

I hope that explains it to your satisfaction. :)

[inthebox]

How does a deist answer the question of suffering in life?

We all know there is, so when confronted with it, does a deist think that god does not care, is powerless to do anything or gets enjoyment out of our suffering? How is that an advantage to not believing in god?

If, as a child you were hungry and your parent[s] did not feed you, how is that an advantage to having no parents? If you had health insurance and became ill, and the insurance did not help pay for treatment of your illness, how is that insurance any better than not having insurance? In fact it is worse.

That is "why not" deism.


G&P

[Alty]

How does a deist answer the question of suffering in life?

We all know there is, so when confronted with it, does a deist think that god does not care, is powerless to do anything or gets enjoyment out of our suffering? How is that an advantage to not believing in god?

If, as a child you were hungry and your parent[s] did not feed you, how is that an advantage to having no parents? If you had health insurance and became ill, and the insurance did not help pay for treatment of your illness, how is that insurance any better than not having insurance? In fact it is worse.

That is "why not" deism.


G&P

Suffering is a part of life, there is no answer to that question.

Your God obviously doesn't put an end to your suffering, why is that? Maybe it's because he has nothing to do with the people on this earth that he created.

If a child is hungry and his parents don't feed him then someone else takes over or the child dies. God doesn't save the child, people do. If you become ill and your insurance doesn't pay for the treatment then you either have to pay or you die. God doesn't intercede, people do.

Deists believe in God, just not a God that meddles in the lives of the humans on this earth he created. There's so much proof that he doesn't, the rest, all these so called "miracles" are only heresay, written in the bible, a book written by men.

If God did care about all the people on earth then why so much suffering? That's the question I have.

[ScottGem]

How does a deist answer the question of suffering in life?

We all know there is, so when confronted with it, does a deist think that god does not care, is powerless to do anything or gets enjoyment out of our suffering? How is that an advantage to not believing in god?

If, as a child you were hungry and your parent[s] did not feed you, how is that an advantage to having no parents? If you had health insurance and became ill, and the insurance did not help pay for treatment of your illness, how is that insurance any better than not having insurance? In fact it is worse.

That is "why not" deism.

G&P

No, in fact, your post eloquently answers the question of WHY Deism. Because a Deist DOES believe in a god. But a Deist sees the suffering and tragedy in this world and wonders why the god that created this world allows such suffering to go on. The only logical answer to that (faith is not a logical answer) is that the creator does, either not care, is powerless to act, enjoys the suffering or chooses not to act. I don't pretend to know which of those is correct or maybe there is some other factor, I haven't considered. But the evidence is overwhelming to me that the Creator is, in fact, not acting. I do not believe the tragedies and suffering are deliberate. I believe they are a result of the groundwork laid in creating our world. For example, the physical universe was setup to allow for earthquakes, tidal waves, killer storms etc. So these things happen because the physical laws of the world allow them to happen.

Your analogies don't hold water, by the way. You were created by your parents. What they do after that creation is up to them. Society has created safety nets to provide for parents who abuse their children that way. If your insurance does not pay what they are supposed to pay, our society has laws that compel them to pay.

In neither case, however, does it equate to not believing in a god that meddles in the lives of its creations.

[ETWolverine]

Suffering is a part of life, there is no answer to that question.

Your God obviously doesn't put an end to your suffering, why is that? Maybe it's because he has nothing to do with the people on this earth that he created.

Or perhaps it is because there's a reason that the suffering has to take place... in order for OTHER things to happen.

A good example, though I am loath to use it... many people say that the Holocaust HAD to happen to the Jews in order for us to be reunited with our Homeland of Israel. Had the Holocaust never occurred, the State of Israel would never have been created in modern times, and we would still be exiles with no home. The suffering HAD to occur for the good to come about.

If a child is hungry and his parents don't feed him then someone else takes over or the child dies. God does save the child, people do. If you become ill and your insurance doesn't pay for the treatment then you either have to pay or you die. God doesn't intercede, people do.

And what of the cases of people suddenly being cured of incurable diseases that their doctors gave them no chance of survival for? People who were dying of terminal cancer who woke up one day, went to their doctor's office and found that they tumor was inexplicably shrinking away. There are literally thousands of documented cases of "unexplained" recoveries from diseases that people should not have recovered from. Which "PEOPLE" interceded in those cases?

Deists believe in God, just not a God that meddles in the lives of the humans on this earth he created. There's so much proof that he doesn't, the rest, all these so called "miracles" are only heresay, written in the bible, a book written by men.

If God did care about all the people on earth then why so much suffering? That's the question I have.

And I have answered it as well as humanly possible. Sometimes the suffering is necessary for something else to occur... maybe not even in our lifetimes, or our children's lifetimes... but somewhere down the road, something is meant to occur that could only happen if certain events come to pass, even if those events cause suffering.

If one postulates an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent being, couldn't it be that this being knows more than we do about the cause-and-effect relationships of our suffering?

Elliot

[ETWolverine]

The only logical answer to that (faith is not a logical answer) is that the creator does, either not care, is powerless to act, enjoys the suffering or chooses not to act.

There's another possibility that you seem to miss: that He has a plan that REQUIRES that this particular bit of suffering take place for a greater good, and that if He intervenes to stop that suffering, he undermines that greater good. I don't pretend to understand what that greater good might be... but isn't that a possibility?

You seem to assume that inaction implies a being that either lacks caring or lacks ability to do anything about it. I say that it could imply a being with more information than we have about the nature of pain and suffering and it's effects, and a being with a longer-term plan than we can see.

Elliot

[cadillac59]

Or perhaps it is because there's a reason that the suffering has to take place... in order for OTHER things to happen.

A good example, though I am loath to use it... many people say that the Holocaust HAD to happen to the Jews in order for us to be reunited with our Homeland of Israel. Had the Holocaust never occured, the State of Israel would never have been created in modern times, and we would still be exiles with no home. The suffering HAD to occur for the good to come about.



And what of the cases of people suddenly being cured of incurable diseases that their doctors gave them no chance of survival for? People who were dying of terminal cancer who woke up one day, went to their doctor's office and found that they tumor was inexplicably shrinking away. There are literally thousands of documented cases of "unexplained" recoveries from diseases that people should not have recovered from. Which "PEOPLE" interceded in those cases?



And I have answered it as well as humanly possible. Sometimes the suffering is necessary for something else to occur... maybe not even in our lifetimes, or our children's lifetimes... but somewhere down the road, something is meant to occur that could only happen if certain events come to pass, even if those events cause suffering.

If one postulates an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent being, couldn't it be that this being knows more than we do about the cause-and-effect relationships of our suffering?

Elliot

I always like to refer to Bertrand Russell's comments about the omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent god wherever someone makes the argument by design, and I think it is relevant here as well: 'If you were granted omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence and millions upon millions of years in which to perfect your world do you really think the best you could come up with would be the Nazis and the Klu Klux Klan?'

It's pretty funny when you think about it.