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    Alty's Avatar
    Alty Posts: 28,317, Reputation: 5972
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    #81

    Sep 24, 2009, 06:41 PM

    You see, there have been documented cases of "unexplained occurences" throughout history. These events have often been labeled "miracles". As I have mentioned in prior posts, there are scientifically documented cases of people's deadly tumors suddenly and inexlicably shrinking or unexplained survival and cure from other terminal diseases. That these events have occurred is not open for dispute... they are well documented.
    And you have proof that God made them happen? Your faith leads you to the conclusion that God healed them. I don't have that faith.

    You ASSUME that if G-d has a day-to-day interest in the world, that interest MUST be to take care of people. Since he seems not to be doing that, he must therefore not be taking a day-to-day interest in the world.
    I don't know much about the Jewish faith, so please forgive me if I'm wrong, but you do follow the bible, nes pas? If so, then isn't the God of the bible the all loving "father" of the all the people on earth? Do you have children? If one of your children had cancer and you had the power to take it away, wouldn't you? Your God, according to you, seems to pick those he'll heal. He also seems to let very bad things happen to a lot of his children. Where was he when my cousin was molesting me? Where was he when I was being raped? I believed in the God of the bible then, but he did nothing to stop my suffering. What "greater good" can come out of the things I and so many other people have been put through?

    This isn't about telling you what to believe... it's about examening it.
    We have. If Scott is anything like me (sorry Scott if I'm wrong) he thought long and hard, researched, questioned and soul searched for a long time before choosing Deism. I went to Catholic school for 10 years, I was raised a Lutheran, I wasn't a devout Lutheran or Catholic, but I did have bible study and plenty of time to research and question.

    The way I was treated in the Catholic school, because I wasn't Catholic, lead me to start questioning things, to start wondering if there is in fact a God that cares for the people on this earth.

    I was very close to choosing Atheism, but it made no sense to me. I believe that some greater force, Deity, God, had to have a hand in creating this world, but all evidence points to this God wiping his hands of the world right after he created it.

    Was Jesus real? I'm sure there was a man named Jesus, I'm sure he did claim to be the son of God. Was he? I don't know. Why would a God put a human on this earth? To die for our sins but to keep testing us? What kind of God is this? So we suffer for 60+ years, if we're lucky, and then, if we accept the suffering, kneel before this unseen force, pray, etc. etc. etc. then we finally get the big reward? Where's the logic in that?

    I respect your right to believe, I respect your faith, but, if you allowed yourself to see our side of things you may just understand why Deism is an acceptable belief.

    You may notice from my other postings in the religious forums that I have many times said, to someone that believes, God bless. That is their belief, I have no problem with that belief and speaking to them in a way that I know will bring them comfort. If a "God bless" will help them, well, that's the least I can do.

    I, on the other hand, have been told by more then one member on this site, that I'm going to hell, that I'll burn, that my "God" will be judged by their God, etc. etc. etc.

    Interesting isn't it? I can accept others but, because I won't conform I'm going to hell and worse and will not be accepted by people with faith.

    I wonder how God feels about that. I'm not being snide, but really, if your God exists then how do you think he feels about all his loyal followers treating his "lost children" like dirt on the bottom of their shoes?
    Alty's Avatar
    Alty Posts: 28,317, Reputation: 5972
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    #82

    Sep 24, 2009, 06:43 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by firmbeliever View Post
    Oh! Wait!

    The title when you look at the forum listing, it says Why not Diesm ?"

    The heading when you open this thread says "Why not Deism?"

    Wonder why??
    I do know that Caddy man (I made a nickname) misspelled it originally and then changed it. Maybe it didn't change on the forum, only on the thread.

    Curious.
    cadillac59's Avatar
    cadillac59 Posts: 1,326, Reputation: 94
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    #83

    Sep 24, 2009, 07:04 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by firmbeliever View Post
    Oh! Wait!

    The title when you look at the forum listing, it says Why not Diesm ?"

    The heading when you open this thread says "Why not Deism?"

    Wonder why??
    That's the thing. I goofed up on the spelling and I was able to correct the thread title but not the forum listing. So now I feel like a dummy.:)
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #84

    Sep 24, 2009, 07:26 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by cadillac59 View Post
    Everytime I see the title "Why not Diesm" I want to kick myself. Someone's going to start a thread, "Why can't Cadillac59 spell???":)
    Oh, noooooooooooooo! I thought Cadillac misspelled it deliberately to get our attention!
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    cadillac59 Posts: 1,326, Reputation: 94
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    #85

    Sep 24, 2009, 07:28 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Oh, noooooooooooooo! I thought Cadillac misspelled it deliberately to get our attention!
    I should have for that reason if none other. No one pays much attention to me on this board anyway. I start a nice thread and everyone chats with each other and I get left out in the cold.;)
    Alty's Avatar
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    #86

    Sep 24, 2009, 07:42 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by cadillac59 View Post
    I should have for that reason if none other. No one pays much attention to me on this board anyway. I start a nice thread and everyone chats with each other and I get left out in the cold.;)
    LOL! If you want to chat then you have to come to our chat threads. Chatting here will get your butt smacked. Trust me, I know. Mine is still sore from the last time it was smacked. ;)

    We have to stay on topic here, there is the God of AMHD watching. ;)
    inthebox's Avatar
    inthebox Posts: 787, Reputation: 179
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    #87

    Sep 24, 2009, 08:21 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Altenweg View Post
    There's never a purpose to suffering, whether you believe in God or not. That's my opinion.

    .
    My wife states that the pain of labor and delivery is offset by 1] it will end 2] the joy of life that is born. There is a PURPOSE

    As humans we all go through relationship problems and suffering, the PURPOSE, is to learn from errors [ hopefully ], or to move on, or to empathize with those going through tough time.

    When someone has an open heart bypass their chest is split causing pain, but the PURPOSE was to help save a life or improve a life.


    G&P
    inthebox's Avatar
    inthebox Posts: 787, Reputation: 179
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    #88

    Sep 24, 2009, 08:28 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottGem View Post
    I've explained this several times. It might help if you pay attention. Once more; a Deist believe that an intelligence (call it a god, a diety or whatever you want "May the Force be with you!") created the universe. In doing so, certain natural laws were set up. The Deist believe in this intelligence because, logically, the complexity of the universe seems to indicate (to them) an intelligent design. That's why Deism rather than Atheism.

    From there the Deist and the Atheist follow similar paths. We do not believe that whatever intelligence created the universe is continuing to monitor their creation or to meddle in its operation. This is because we cannot believe that a diety that is watching and meddling could allow the suffering that exists.



    And that's another place where you aren't paying attention. A Deist does not operate on faith. I don't believe suffering has any purpose. I believe its a side effect of other portions of the creation. I don't believe the intelligence that created the universe was perfect. I believe mistakes were made and suffering is a byproduct of those mistakes. At least that is what I believe. I don't speak for anyone else.

    I'm going to add one more point here. The thread was started with the question of why deism is a valid belief. I believe that question has been answered thoroughly and eloquently. Along the way other people opined as to why Deism was not viable. Those people failed because the crux of their arguments (as yours) is that a level of faith in the teachings of their religion is required. But a Deist rejects or doesn't believe in those teachings because it requires such faith.

    I have not and will not put anyone down for having such faith. If that level of faith in the teaching of their religion provides them comfort, then I am happy for them. But MY beliefs are not in faith, but in logic. If I respect your belief in faith, then do me the courtesy of respecting my belief in logic.


    A very nihilistic view of suffering. Besides the question of suffering is PHILOSOPHICAL and not necessarily scientific or physiologic. But if you insist, pain is the body's way of telling you that it is being harmed or to stop a harmful activity - a physiological PURPOSE.

    Accepting science and reason is not dependent on one's religion or lack thereof, so why deism? If science and evidence are neutral?


    G&P
    Alty's Avatar
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    #89

    Sep 24, 2009, 10:09 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by inthebox View Post
    My wife states that the pain of labor and delivery is offset by 1] it will end 2] the joy of life that is born. There is a PURPOSE

    As humans we all go through relationship problems and suffering, the PURPOSE, is to learn from errors [ hopefully ], or to move on, or to empathize with those going through tough time.

    When someone has an open heart bypass their chest is split causing pain,, but the PURPOSE was to help save a life or improve a life.


    G&P
    What does labor have to do with God?

    Yes, labor pains are offset by the fact that you know the pain will end and then you'll have a beautiful child. My question is, why the pain to begin with if there is a God that cares?

    Yes, we all learn from our mistakes, we all move on, most people have empathy towards others going through tough times. That, if anything, proves Deism much more then Theism.

    So your God wants us to suffer? He wants our lives to be full of pain and suffering to prove our love for him? And if we take all the suffering he dishes out then we'll have eternal life?

    If that's true then there is no hell, we're already living in it with the hopes of going to heaven.

    Sorry, but if the God of the bible does exist then he's supposed to care, he's supposed to love all of his children. Why would any parent put their child through hell?

    None of you have answered that question yet. Is it because there's no answer?
    inthebox's Avatar
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    #90

    Sep 25, 2009, 04:08 AM

    Labor pain is an analogy:
    God lets us go through suffering, but the joy is in eternal life with God. An analogy for deism is going through labor pain, but not actually giving life.

    You have posted that there is no purpose in suffering and I have posted reasons and purposes and good that may come of it, now you turn it all around.

    As to suffering, there are a whole lot of people seeking relief or escape from it in substance abuse or hedonism, is that what you think the solution to suffrering is?

    Yes, life can be "hell," for a deist is that all there is? For an agnostic is that all there is? No purpose, no hope? Again why deism?


    G&P
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    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #91

    Sep 25, 2009, 06:09 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by inthebox View Post
    Labor pain is an analogy:
    God lets us go through suffering, but the joy is in eternal life with God. An analogy for deism is going through labor pain, but not actually giving life.

    You have posted that there is no purpose in suffering and I have posted reasons and purposes and good that may come of it, now you turn it all around.

    As to suffering, there are a whole lot of people seeking relief or escape from it in substance abuse or hedonism, is that what you think the solution to suffrering is?

    Yes, life can be "hell," for a deist is that all there is? For an agnostic is that all there is? No purpose, no hope? again why deism?


    G&P
    First, your analogies do not hold up to scrutiny. The suffering an tragedy that Alty, Caddy and myself have referred to are on a much grander scale. Yes the pain felt by a single person in labor or injury does have a purpose. But that purpose is the result of physical laws that were setup as part of the design of the universe. They do not equate to suffering we refer to in having thousands of lives lost in a tsunami, or even the pain parents might experience in the loss of a child. There is no specific cause and effect there.

    So we learn from our mistakes, but what mistake did we make that resulted in an earthquake taking hundreds of lives? Or maybe our security forces made mistakes that allowed some nut jobs to plow a plane into a building. Was it worth losing thousands of lives to tighten our security?

    And how much pain does someone go through in open heart surgery? Haven't you heard of anesthesia?
    ETWolverine's Avatar
    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #92

    Sep 25, 2009, 07:35 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Altenweg View Post
    And you have proof that God made them happen? Your faith leads you to the conclusion that God healed them. I don't have that faith.
    No. I don't have "proof" that G-d made them happen. But I have no other explanation. And logic suggests that if every other possibility has been exhausted, then what's left, no matter how implausible, must be the answer. Science has ruled out all other possibilities for these events. Ergo, the only thing left is divine intervention.

    I don't know much about the Jewish faith, so please forgive me if I'm wrong, but you do follow the bible, nes pas?
    Yes.

    If so, then isn't the God of the bible the all loving "father" of the all the people on earth?
    That is the incorrect assumption you are making.

    What makes you think that G-d loves everyone. It may say that in the New Testament, but Judaism doesn't accept the New Testament. The Old Testament has no source that says that G-d loves everyone equally. In fact, there are several sources within the bible that say the exact opposite.

    Do you have children?
    Yes, two, a boy and a girl, 8 & 7.

    of your children had cancer and you had the power to take it away, wouldn't you?
    Yes I would.

    d, according to you, seems to pick those he'll heal.
    Yes he does.

    Using a variation of your own example, would I heal my worst enemy? Especially if doing so is damaging to my own goals to better the world around me?

    Hell no.

    Would you?

    Now... would I heal a complete stranger, or someone with whom I had only a passing relationship? Depends. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

    Are you any different?

    Should G-d be any different?

    He also seems to let very bad things happen to a lot of his children.
    Yes he does...

    Where was he when my cousin was molesting me? Where was he when I was being raped?
    Probably the same place he was when I was being molested at the age of 10 by a camp counselor or having the crap kicked out of me by "teachers" who thought beating up a student was a good motivator for learning.

    I believed in the God of the bible then, but he did nothing to stop my suffering. What "greater good" can come out of the things I and so many other people have been put through?
    Perhaps the "greater good" is a greater realization today of the harm that these people cause and a greater effort to stop them. That is certainly the trend we are seeing in modern society. Or perhaps the greater good is something we haven't seen and simply don't know yet.

    We have. If Scott is anything like me (sorry Scott if I'm wrong) he thought long and hard, researched, questioned and soul searched for a long time before choosing Deism. I went to Catholic school for 10 years, I was raised a Lutheran, I wasn't a devout Lutheran or Catholic, but I did have bible study and plenty of time to research and question.
    I believe that both of you have examined your beliefs before you came to them. I am not questioning that. All I am saying, and what I try to practice for myself, is that such examination can't be a one-time thing. It has to be CONSTANT and ongoing through the lens of new experience and new information received. I hope that you do that, and Scott as well.

    The way I was treated in the Catholic school, because I wasn't Catholic, lead me to start questioning things, to start wondering if there is in fact a God that cares for the people on this earth.

    I was very close to choosing Atheism, but it made no sense to me. I believe that some greater force, Deity, God, had to have a hand in creating this world, but all evidence points to this God wiping his hands of the world right after he created it.
    If all the evidence points to G-d wiping his hands of the world right after creating it, then how do you explain documented cases of "unexplained" phenomenon like the spontaneous shrinking of terminal tumors like the examples I gave earlier in this thread? How do you explain that within the Deist philosophy?

    Was Jesus real? I'm sure there was a man named Jesus, I'm sure he did claim to be the son of God. Was he? I don't know. Why would a God put a human on this earth? To die for our sins but to keep testing us? What kind of God is this? So we suffer for 60+ years, if we're lucky, and then, if we accept the suffering, kneel before this unseen force, pray, etc. etc. etc. then we finally get the big reward? Where's the logic in that?
    If you would like to understand my own way of thinking regarding Jesus, please see this link. It's off topic, but you might find it interesting.

    https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/judais...ml#post1701021

    I respect your right to believe, I respect your faith, but, if you allowed yourself to see our side of things you may just understand why Deism is an acceptable belief.
    In my post to Scott, I went out of my way to state that such is an acceptable beliefe at least 3 times. I have no qualms with that.

    You may notice from my other postings in the religious forums that I have many times said, to someone that believes, God bless. That is their belief, I have no problem with that belief and speaking to them in a way that I know will bring them comfort. If a "God bless" will help them, well, that's the least I can do.

    I, on the other hand, have been told by more then one member on this site, that I'm going to hell, that I'll burn, that my "God" will be judged by their God, etc. etc. etc.
    Not a Jewish belief. Judaism simply doesn't believe that you go to hell if you aren't Jewish. Please see this link for more information: https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/judais...ml#post1981488 Specifically, check out the section regarding "conversions" in the answer to the 4th question. You will NEVER hear me tell anyone they are going to hell because they don't believe in G-d the same way that I do. If I said something like that, it is much more likely that I would be the one going to hell than you. I find such behavior abhorrent, both personally and religiously.

    Interesting isn't it? I can accept others but, because I won't conform I'm going to hell and worse and will not be accepted by people with faith.
    Like I say, I find it disgusting. And it is NOT my beliefe system. It is, in fact, one of the major differences between Judaism vs Christianity and Islam. And one that I happen to be rather proud of... Judaism accepts EVERYONE to the same heaven that we go to, regardless of religion.

    I wonder how God feels about that. I'm not being snide, but really, if your God exists then how do you think he feels about all his loyal followers treating his "lost children" like dirt on the bottom of their shoes?
    I can't speak for G-d, but I think I have made it fairly clear how the Jewish People in general and myself in particular feel about that sort of thing.

    Moreover, Jews have been on the receiving end of too many pogroms, inquisitions, blood libels, holocausts, expulsions, forced conversions, and intifadas to accept that sort of behavior.

    I fully accept your beliefs for yourself. I am just trying to examine the assumptions that underlay those beliefs. And I still have a lot of questions about them. I still don't think they fit all the facts on the ground.

    But if you are satisfied with them, then I'm happy for you. I just know that in the same position, I wouldn't be quite so satisfied... which of course is the reason that you and I have different beliefs.

    Elliot
    Alty's Avatar
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    #93

    Sep 25, 2009, 08:37 AM

    Using a variation of your own example, would I heal my worst enemy? Especially if doing so is damaging to my own goals to better the world around me?

    Hell no.

    Would you?

    Now... would I heal a complete stranger, or someone with whom I had only a passing relationship? Depends. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

    Are you any different?

    Should G-d be any different?
    The Christian God should be different. The Christians believe that God loves everyone, all his children. If we're all equally his children then yes, he should be different. He's not a human being, he's a God. He's not supposed to be limited to our narrow view of the people on this earth, he's supposed to love us all equally. I don't see that happening.

    No, I probably wouldn't heal my worst enemy, but I'm not God, I'm human, fallible.

    I believe that both of you have examined your beliefs before you came to them. I am not questioning that. All I am saying, and what I try to practice for myself, is that such examination can't be a one-time thing. It has to be CONSTANT and ongoing through the lens of new experience and new information received. I hope that you do that, and Scott as well.
    I can only speak for myself but yes, I do still question. If evidence came about that there is a God that loves us, intervenes on our behalfs, then I'd be a fool not to believe. I'm not a fool.

    So far all my research, all my questions, lead to Deism. So for the time being that's where my beliefs will remain.

    If all the evidence points to G-d wiping his hands of the world right after creating it, then how do you explain documented cases of "unexplained" phenomenon like the spontaneous shrinking of terminal tumors like the examples I gave earlier in this thread? How do you explain that within the Deist philosophy?
    Science. That's how I explain it. These phenomenon may not be explained yet, but there is an explanation, we just haven't found it yet.

    You will NEVER hear me tell anyone they are going to hell because they don't believe in G-d the same way that I do
    True. I should have been more clear, I apologize. I've never been told that by a person of the Jewish faith, only Christians, not all but enough that it's hurtful.

    Judaism accepts EVERYONE to the same heaven that we go to, regardless of religion.
    I'm going to read the links you provided. I do admit that I don't know anything about the Jewish religion.

    I fully accept your beliefs for yourself. I am just trying to examine the assumptions that underlay those beliefs. And I still have a lot of questions about them. I still don't think they fit all the facts on the ground.
    Thank you. I'll try to answer any questions you have. Sadly, when talking about ones beliefs it's often hard to make those beliefs clear and understandable to others, at least for me. Trust me when I say that I didn't make the choice of Deism lightly. I thought long and hard about it and Deism simply makes the most sense to me.

    I'm always willing to learn more about others beliefs, but so far I've never seen any evidence pointing to faith in a God that does care about us.

    I have to say that this discussion is going very well. Most of us are listening to each other and that doesn't usually happen on the religious threads.
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    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #94

    Sep 25, 2009, 08:55 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Altenweg View Post
    The Christian God should be different. The Christians believe that God loves everyone, all his children.
    I'm not Christian. Jews don't believe in turning the other cheek either. I think we tend to be more pragmatic than the Christians.

    If we're all equally his children then yes, he should be different. He's not a human being, he's a God. He's not supposed to be limited to our narrow view of the people on this earth, he's supposed to love us all equally. I don't see that happening.
    Why is he "supposed" to love us all equally? Who says so? Again, this is one of the assumptions that you have made that are the basis for your belief system that I'm questioning.

    No, I probably wouldn't heal my worst enemy, but I'm not God, I'm human, fallible.
    You assume that not healing your worst enemy is a "mistake" and a "fallibility". Again, why is that your assumption?

    I can only speak for myself but yes, I do still question. If evidence came about that there is a God that loves us, intervenes on our behalfs, then I'd be a fool not to believe. I'm not a fool.
    No you're not. In fact, I find you to be anything but.

    So far all my research, all my questions, lead to Deism. So for the time being that's where my beliefs will remain.
    Fair enough.

    Science. That's how I explain it. These phenomenon may not be explained yet, but there is an explanation, we just haven't found it yet.
    The problem is that "science" can't explain it. So you are basically saying that you have faith that science will someday figure it out. That's fine. I have no problem with that beliefe.

    But I have already found the explanation. At least for myself.

    True. I should have been more clear, I apologize. I've never been told that by a person of the Jewish faith, only Christians, not all but enough that it's hurtful.
    An understandable reaction. I wonder, though, if some of your reluctance to accept a hands-on G-d might not be related to the pain and anger that such comments from people claiming to believe in such a G-d might cause. Just a thought. In any case, I feel very sad for what that pain has cost you.

    I'm going to read the links you provided. I do admit that I don't know anything about the Jewish religion.
    Feel free to ask any questions you may have. I enjoy talking about my religious, philosophical and cultural beliefs.

    Thank you. I'll try to answer any questions you have. Sadly, when talking about ones beliefs it's often hard to make those beliefs clear and understandable to others, at least for me. Trust me when I say that I didn't make the choice of Deism lightly. I thought long and hard about it and Deism simply makes the most sense to me.

    I'm always willing to learn more about others beliefs, but so far I've never seen any evidence pointing to faith in a God that does care about us.

    I have to say that this discussion is going very well. Most of us are listening to each other and that doesn't usually happen on the religious threads.
    My experience is similar to yours. I much prefer this way.

    Elliot
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    inthebox Posts: 787, Reputation: 179
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    #95

    Sep 25, 2009, 01:00 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottGem View Post
    And how much pain does someone go through in open heart surgery? haven't you heard of anesthesia?
    Anesthesia does not take care of the post operative pain. Sternotomy wires are not the most comfortable.



    G&P
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    Alty Posts: 28,317, Reputation: 5972
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    #96

    Sep 25, 2009, 01:56 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by inthebox View Post
    Anesthesia does not take care of the post operative pain. Sternotomy wires are not the most comfortable.



    G&P
    And what does this have to do with God?

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