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    cadillac59's Avatar
    cadillac59 Posts: 1,326, Reputation: 94
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    #21

    Sep 17, 2009, 03:27 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by firmbeliever View Post
    I will try to explain as a believer why just "Deism" does not work for me.

    As you mentioned Pol Pot and Nazi, their acts in this world was not actually punished while they were alive or even if some were it is nothing compared to the actions and mistreatment others had to endure in their hands.

    For this very reason,my belief in the Hereafter and an Almighty Creator who will provide justice even if we escape the worldly life makes sense to me.

    Because I can make a list of people who I know deserves to suffer for making others suffer at their hands.
    And there is not enough worldly punishment that will make up for the evils in their lives.

    I believe in a justice,where those who deserve get due punishment and those who deserve get due reward, deism does not offer justice.
    Your argument, and it's not necessarily a bad one, is that god must exist to equalize the injustice in the world. I see the point. Even if Hitler had been caught and put on trial (and maybe executed) it would hardly of done much to compensate for the wide path of destruction and death left behind. True.

    But I think imagining the way things ought to be is not the same as establishing how they in fact are. We can all envision a god who sorts it all out and makes it right at the end of the day, but that does nothing really to advance the argument of his existence. I think I've heard your point of view expressed as the "moral necessity" for the existence of god. I think there are better arguments. But I appreciate your point of view.
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    firmbeliever Posts: 2,919, Reputation: 463
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    #22

    Sep 17, 2009, 03:46 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by cadillac59 View Post
    Your argument, and it's not necessarily a bad one, is that god must exist to equalize the injustice in the world. I see the point. Even if Hitler had been caught and put on trial (and maybe executed) it would hardly of done much to compensate for the wide path of destruction and death left behind. True.

    But I think imagining the way things ought to be is not the same as establishing how they in fact are. We can all envision a god who sorts it all out and makes it right at the end of the day, but that does nothing really to advance the argument of his existance. I think I've heard your point of view expressed as the "moral necessity" for the existance of god. I think there are better arguments. But I appreciate your point of view.
    That was just to show why I could not cater to Deism.

    This view does not mean that it is the only reason I believe, just one of many. :)
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    cadillac59 Posts: 1,326, Reputation: 94
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    #23

    Sep 17, 2009, 05:21 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by firmbeliever View Post
    That was just to show why I could not cater to Deism.

    This view does not mean that it is the only reason I believe, just one of many. :)
    I think for those of us who might be inclined toward atheism, deism is a reasonable alternative. For example, coming from a Lutheran background (and from one of the most liberal of branches of that church), I considered atheism for a number of reasons, but have given deism some thought as an alternative. I'm not quite ready to fully embrace atheism at the moment, maybe that's part of it. Returning to god, for me, would be a return to a liberal Lutheran tradition I suppose (Lutheranism has the best that the Catholic church has to offer without some of the other matters I see as problematic).
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #24

    Sep 17, 2009, 07:52 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by cadillac59 View Post
    I think for those of us who might be inclined toward atheism, deism is a reasonable alternative. For example, coming from a Lutheran background (and from one of the most liberal of branches of that church), I considered atheism for a number of reasons, but have given deism some thought as an alternative. I'm not quite ready to fully embrace atheism at the moment, maybe that's part of it. Returning to god, for me, would be a return to a liberal Lutheran tradition I suppose (Lutheranism has the best that the Catholic church has to offer without some of the other matters I see as problematic).
    I grew up in one of the conservative branches of the Lutheran church, the Missouri-Synod. In fact, my dad was a pastor all his adult life. Despite the fact that M-S Lutherans tend toward fundamentalism, one lesson my dad taught was that we are to do our best to follow Jesus' two greatest commandments: love God and love each other. Yes, the Ten Commandments are a guide for us, but if we don't show love in our efforts to keep them, we have failed. How then can we show love to the unchurched, to those of another religion or who have no religion, to those who look different from us, to those who ARE in some way different from us? My dad often say the OT shows us our sin (SOS), shows us where we have gone wrong, whereas the NT shows our salvation (SOS), shows us the best possible way to live, a la the Good Samaritan, by showing unconditional love to others.

    Why do Christians insist that gays and their partners are living in sin, when it is the Christians themselves who won't allow any kind of marriage or even civil contract for gays. I know several gays in long-term relationships, some with adopted children. They have created stable families and make wonderful parents! Communities are enhanced with their presence. I pray that more church bodies will open their hearts and minds to include gays in their membership.
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    cadillac59 Posts: 1,326, Reputation: 94
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    #25

    Sep 17, 2009, 09:42 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    I grew up in one of the conservative branches of the Lutheran church, the Missouri-Synod. In fact, my dad was a pastor all his adult life. Despite the fact that M-S Lutherans tend toward fundamentalism, one lesson my dad taught was that we are to do our best to follow Jesus' two greatest commandments: love God and love each other. Yes, the Ten Commandments are a guide for us, but if we don't show love in our efforts to keep them, we have failed. How then can we show love to the unchurched, to those of another religion or who have no religion, to those who look different from us, to those who ARE in some way different from us? My dad often say the OT shows us our sin (SOS), shows us where we have gone wrong, whereas the NT shows our salvation (SOS), shows us the best possible way to live, a la the Good Samaritan, by showing unconditional love to others.

    Why do Christians insist that gays and their partners are living in sin, when it is the Christians themselves who won't allow any kind of marriage or even civil contract for gays. I know several gays in long-term relationships, some with adopted children. They have created stable families and make wonderful parents! Communities are enhanced with their presence. I pray that more church bodies will open their hearts and minds to include gays in their membership.
    Thank you and yes. As a gay man, I couldn't agree more.

    My church was ELCA affiliated and now that denomination ordains gay and lesbian pastors in committed same sex relationships. Hopefully same sex marriage will be the next thing to follow. That's why I said if I go back to god, it will only be in an ELCA church.

    Yes, we (gay people) are equal in every respect to heterosexuals: equal in our ability to form lasting relationships. Equal in our ability to be good parents, equal in our ability to love and respect others, equal in our ability to contribute meaningfully to our communities, equal in our ability to be good neighbors, equal in our ability to occupy any profession, and the list goes on and on.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #26

    Sep 17, 2009, 10:52 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by cadillac59 View Post
    That's why I said if I go back to god, it will only be in an ELCA church.
    Don't put God on the shelf because of incorrect thinking by people. It's not God's fault! I hope an area ELCA congregation will become your home away from home.
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    Capuchin Posts: 5,255, Reputation: 656
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    #27

    Sep 18, 2009, 02:59 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by cadillac59 View Post
    or first cause, one that is far better now since the big bang theory
    I find this a bit silly. You can say god did something to the universe that caused the big bang, or you can say the universe big banged on it's own. Both of which we have equal evidence for, and one of which is a degree simpler.

    I guess I find it silly to invoke a god just because you can't understand how something would happen without a god. I don't say that god holds the magnets to the fridge just because I'm ignorant of how magnetism works. In the same way I don't say that god caused the big bang just because I don't understand how that happened, and I don't think it's a particularly good argument for the existence of god.

    Have you ever heard the phrase "God of the Gaps"?
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    cadillac59 Posts: 1,326, Reputation: 94
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    #28

    Sep 18, 2009, 09:50 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Capuchin View Post
    I find this a bit silly. You can say god did something to the universe that caused the big bang, or you can say the universe big banged on it's own. Both of which we have equal evidence for, and one of which is a degree simpler.

    I guess I find it silly to invoke a god just because you can't understand how something would happen without a god. I don't say that god holds the magnets to the fridge just because i'm ignorant of how magnetism works. In the same way I don't say that god caused the big bang just because I don't understand how that happened, and I don't think it's a particularly good argument for the existence of god.

    Have you ever heard the phrase "God of the Gaps"?
    I'm not trying to make an argument for the existence of god. Far from it. In fact, I'm on the edge of atheism myself but, as I've indicated, I'm just not quite there yet and have looked at alternatives to religion, like deism.

    I heard an interesting argument raised recently by a theist in an atheism vs. theism debate, which involved the big bang theory. He said that because we now know the earth came into existence at a finite point in the past (i.e. at the time of the big bang) we can say the universe had a beginning whereas before we couldn't. Hence, if the universe had a beginning it must have had a cause and now the stage is set to call that cause god. Before, without proof that the universe had a beginning we could not do that. Because we define god without reference to having had a beginning we avoid the problem of having to apply the first cause argument to god's origins.

    To illustrate, Bertrand Russell, before the big bang theory, use to critique the first cause argument this way: You cannot use the first cause argument because it immediately raises the question of who made god. If you say god always existed and doesn't need a cause, you might as well say the universe always existed and doesn't need a cause either. If anything doesn't need a cause it might as well be the universe as god.

    Add the big bang theory and you give the universe a beginning thus necessitating an explanation of cause. But no similar argument can be made with respect to god. You see the distinction?

    Your point was well-taken: maybe the universe "big banged" on it own.

    Not sure I agree with the theist's use of the big bang to use a first cause argument but I thought it made some sense.
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    Capuchin Posts: 5,255, Reputation: 656
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    #29

    Sep 19, 2009, 03:52 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by cadillac59 View Post
    I'm not trying to make an argument for the existence of god. Far from it. In fact, I'm on the edge of atheism myself but, as I've indicated, I'm just not quite there yet and have looked at alternatives to religion, like deism.
    I apologise for my tone, I'm used to discussing these points with theists. But still, I'm just trying to share with you why I'm not convinced by the first cause argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by cadillac59 View Post
    He said that because we now know the earth came into existence at a finite point in the past (i.e., at the time of the big bang)
    You mean the universe? The Earth wasn't formed in it's present state until about 3/4 of the universe's age had passed.

    Quote Originally Posted by cadillac59 View Post
    we can say the universe had a beginning whereas before we couldn't
    I don't believe this is true, we can say that the universe was a dense singularity at one point, in which any information about what the universe was like before this singularity was destroyed. For example (and this is just hypothesis on my part) you could say that a contracting universe would contract to a singularity and then begin expanding again as a virtue of its inertia.


    Quote Originally Posted by cadillac59 View Post
    Hence, if the universe had a beginning it must have had a cause and now the stage is set to call that cause god. Before, without proof that the universe had a beginning we could not do that. Because we define god without reference to having had a beginning we avoid the problem of having to apply the first cause argument to god's origins.

    To illustrate, Bertrand Russell, before the big bang theory, use to critique the first cause argument this way: You cannot use the first cause argument because it immediately raises the question of who made god. If you say god always existed and doesn't need a cause, you might as well say the universe always existed and doesn't need a cause either. If anything doesn't need a cause it might as well be the universe as god.

    Add the big bang theory and you give the universe a beginning thus necessitating an explanation of cause. But no similar argument can be made with respect to god. You see the distinction?

    Your point was well-taken: maybe the universe "big banged" on it own.

    Not sure I agree with the theist's use of the big bang to use a first cause argument but I thought it made some sense.
    I think the rest of your post is driven by a slight misunderstanding (either yours or the theist's) about big bang theory. Big bang theory does not say anything about the time before the singularity. We call the singularity the beginning of our universe, because any information about what was before the singularity has been lost. We define the time at which the singularity began to expand as t=0. i.e. the first time for which we can derive information about with observation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    The Big Bang is the cosmological model of the initial conditions and subsequent development of the universe that is supported by the most comprehensive and accurate explanations from current scientific evidence and observation.[1][2] As used by cosmologists, the term Big Bang generally refers to the idea that the universe has expanded from a primordial hot and dense initial condition at some finite time in the past (currently estimated to have been approximately 13.7 billion years ago[3]), and continues to expand to this day.
    I find most people have a naïve idea that the singularity popped out of nothing, which might indeed necessitate some kind of first cause (which also could be addressed by some existing more scientific hypotheses), but the big bang theory does not say anything about that.

    In summary, I don't think the big bang theory really adds anythign to the first cause argument, other than letting the person arguing for the first cause use some arguments based on their own misunderstanding. The most we can assume from big bang theory is that the universe is not steady-state as was once believed, but is dynamic and changing. We still don't really have any information about whether there was a 'caused' beginning.
    ScottGem's Avatar
    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #30

    Sep 19, 2009, 06:08 AM

    OK, I AM a Deist. I have held that belief for many, many years. I've mentioned in other discussions here that deism is my belief.

    I am a deist because I find it hard to accept that the complexity of the design of this universe was the result of a random event. There are too many physical laws and design logic to believe there was not some intelligent force behind it.

    However, believing that, I cannot believe that such a force is hanging around guiding things. I cannot accept that a force intelligent enough to create this complexity could sit there and allow the evil and tragedy that exists in this world.

    Frankly, I think our known universe is a cosmic joke created by some intelligence who is amused by the havoc it created.
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    inthebox Posts: 787, Reputation: 179
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    #31

    Sep 19, 2009, 10:17 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    I grew up in one of the conservative branches of the Lutheran church, the Missouri-Synod. In fact, my dad was a pastor all his adult life. Despite the fact that M-S Lutherans tend toward fundamentalism, one lesson my dad taught was that we are to do our best to follow Jesus' two greatest commandments: love God and love each other. Yes, the Ten Commandments are a guide for us, but if we don't show love in our efforts to keep them, we have failed. How then can we show love to the unchurched, to those of another religion or who have no religion, to those who look different from us, to those who ARE in some way different from us? My dad often say the OT shows us our sin (SOS), shows us where we have gone wrong, whereas the NT shows our salvation (SOS), shows us the best possible way to live, a la the Good Samaritan, by showing unconditional love to others.

    Why do Christians insist that gays and their partners are living in sin, when it is the Christians themselves who won't allow any kind of marriage or even civil contract for gays. I know several gays in long-term relationships, some with adopted children. They have created stable families and make wonderful parents! Communities are enhanced with their presence. I pray that more church bodies will open their hearts and minds to include gays in their membership.
    Your first paragraph is a beautiful expression of what I think a God follower believes.

    Cadillac, I wish and hope that you understand that there is a God, a God that loves you.
    Sin, sinning, sinners is in God's realm. I'm sorry that Christians, myself included, focus more on judging the sinner rather than showing our love for the sinner. I hope you find a group of people / a church? That understands this and lives this.



    G&P
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    galveston Posts: 451, Reputation: 60
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    #32

    Sep 20, 2009, 02:03 PM

    I prefer to answer your question with another question.

    Why Deism?

    It offers no comfort in time of trouble.

    It offers no hope of anything better in this world, ever.

    It offers no hope that good will finally overcome evil.

    There is no promise of anyone to turn to when everyone has turned against you.

    It offers no guarantee that those who have committed horrible crimes against their fellow human beings will ever be brought to justice.

    It offers no hope of any life after this one is over.

    It puzzles me why anyone would want to be a Deist. It is as empty as last years' corn shucks.
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    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #33

    Sep 20, 2009, 02:33 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by galveston View Post
    Why Deism?

    It offers no comfort in time of trouble.
    So you find comfort in your belief in a god that watches over you. I am glad you have found such comfort in blind faith. As for, I see no evidence to provide me with any comfort in a belief in a God. And I too much of a logician to find comfort in blind faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by galveston View Post
    It offers no hope of anything better in this world, ever.
    I vehemently disagree with this. Hope for a better world lies in the actions of the people that populate that world.

    Quote Originally Posted by galveston View Post
    It offers no hope that good will finally overcome evil.
    Good will triumph by the good actions of people, not blind faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by galveston View Post
    There is no promise of anyone to turn to when everyone has turned against you.
    Quote Originally Posted by galveston View Post
    It offers no guarantee that those who have committed horrible crimes against their fellow human beings will ever be brought to justice.
    Again, if it comforts you that evildoers will get their just desserts in some afterlife, more power to you. But a religion that promises such punishment for people who don't worship they way that religion says they should is not going to capture me.

    Quote Originally Posted by galveston View Post
    It offers no hope of any life after this one is over.
    Again, I disagree. Since a deist does believe that there is a supreme being that created the universe as we know it, there is no conflict to also believe that some higher plain of living was also created.

    Quote Originally Posted by galveston View Post
    It puzzles me why anyone would want to be a Deist. It is as empty as last years' corn shucks.
    Not in the least. A deist is generally a logical person, who believes in the evidence of their own senses. There is enough evidence to believe that some intelligent guidance was used in setting up the universe. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that such an intelligence exists or existed. But there is overwhelming evidence, In my opinion, that no such force is guiding our actions or providing help and guidance. So the same logic prevents believing in some organized religion.
    cadillac59's Avatar
    cadillac59 Posts: 1,326, Reputation: 94
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    #34

    Sep 20, 2009, 04:41 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by galveston View Post
    I prefer to answer your question with another question.

    Why Deism?

    It offers no comfort in time of trouble.

    It offers no hope of anything better in this world, ever.

    It offers no hope that good will finally overcome evil.

    There is no promise of anyone to turn to when everyone has turned against you.

    It offers no guarantee that those who have committed horrible crimes against their fellow human beings will ever be brought to justice.

    It offers no hope of any life after this one is over.

    It puzzles me why anyone would want to be a Deist. It is as empty as last years' corn shucks.
    Here's an answer to your question which takes the form of a question:

    Why does wanting something to be true make it true? That's all you've said. Namely, that god has to be a certain way or else it just wouldn't be fair. I fail to see the logic to any of that.

    There's nothing fair about anything in life. The idea that god has to exist and have a certain character, so that everything comes out right in the end is childish wishful thinking.
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    galveston Posts: 451, Reputation: 60
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    #35

    Sep 20, 2009, 08:31 PM

    So, guys,

    You object loudly and long against any premise of faith.

    Unless it is your faith that mankind on his own will some day make a perfect world.

    Lots of luck on that one! How many thousands of years do you say that man has been around? Humanity in general is just as evil as it ever was.

    You are trying to "sell" the idea of Deism, so instead of bashing Christianity, tell us the benefits of Deism.

    Ask yourself this. If you are right and I am wrong, what effect will that have on me?

    Second question. If I am right and you are wrong, what effect will that have on you?

    Feel free to post your answers.
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    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #36

    Sep 21, 2009, 05:56 AM
    Galveston,

    Nope you are looking at this totally skewed from your perspective and that's where you go wrong.

    I am very happy that people can take comfort in their religious beliefs. Having faith can be a wonderful thing for such people. I don't object to faith for people who find comfort in it. What I personally can't accept, because of my own specific makeup, is blind faith. I need facts, or at least, logical conclusions to hang my hat on. If you want to believe the way you do, that's up to you and I'm glad you are happy with your beliefs.

    My objection to your posts in this thread is not that you personally can't accept Deism, but that you think no one should. I have explained why I believe that way, and I have refuted some of your arguments or explained why I can't accept them. But I have always maintained you have a right to them.

    Nor do I accept that humanity is as evil as it ever was. Clearly there are evil people. But I strongly believe that humanity in general wants to be good. If that wasn't true, why would so many follow religious teachings about being and doing good?

    I'm not trying to "sell" Deism, especially not to the extent that you are trying to "sell" Christianity. I have simply stated why I subscribe to the doctrine so people can understand my thinking.

    I do believe that IF there is an after life and IF there is a heaven and hell as part of that afterlife, the decision as to which direction and individual goes wi8ll not be dependent on what church they attend, how often they attend, or whether they attend at all. It will be based on how one lives their life. If a person does mostly good with their life, follows the Golden Rule and the ethical provisions embodied by the 10 Commandments, they one will be admitted to heaven no matter what their religious beliefs.
    cadillac59's Avatar
    cadillac59 Posts: 1,326, Reputation: 94
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    #37

    Sep 21, 2009, 12:01 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by galveston View Post
    So, guys,

    You object loudly and long against any premise of faith.

    Unless it is your faith that mankind on his own will some day make a perfect world.

    Lots of luck on that one! How many thousands of years do you say that man has been around? Humanity in general is just as evil as it ever was.

    You are trying to "sell" the idea of Deism, so instead of bashing Christianity, tell us the benefits of Deism.

    Ask yourself this. If you are right and I am wrong, what effect will that have on me?

    Second question. If I am right and you are wrong, what effect will that have on you?

    Feel free to post your answers.
    What you asked was the very familiar (and old) argument known as Pascal's Wager: If you are right and I am wrong, I've got everything to lose. If I am right and you are wrong you've lost nothing by believing. There's a detailed analysis (and critique) of the argument at wikipedia: Pascal's Wager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    There are many ways to refute this. One way that I like is to ask about all the possible competing religions out there and ask the same question: Can you possibly wager on all of them? If so, how? And should or would anyone?

    Plus, and I'll leave you with this since you can read the wikipedia article yourself, I'm not sure it is true that you've lost nothing by believing (whether that belief is false or not). What if you'd altered your life in such as way as to deny yourself happiness and fulfillment because of your beliefs and this cost you decades of your life before you came to your senses and started living the way you wanted to? Can you really say you've lost nothing?

    And a final comment. Inscribed on Sigmund Freud's tombstone in Vienna are the following words:

    The voice of reason is still but persistent.
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    earthmama Posts: 15, Reputation: 4
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    #38

    Sep 21, 2009, 12:09 PM

    I believe that all religions,with good intent are pathways to God.The pathways start differently,but all end up in the same place.(heaven)? Just a simple thought.
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    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #39

    Sep 21, 2009, 02:14 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by cadillac59 View Post
    I've been giving this some thought, and I've wondered why more people aren't deists? Everyone wants a god who intervenes, cares about them, watches over them, rewards them with heaven. But yet there's no evidence to support any theistic perspective. And, in fact, all of the very best arguments for the existence of god that theists have come up with (and there are some good ones) point only to deism and never directly support any theistic point of view. So what's wrong with deism? Sure, let's say there's a god but he doesn't care about humanity and simply allows things to happen as they happen. In fact, isn't this consistent with the history of mankind anyway? If there's really an intervening and caring god, why the Nazis, Pol Pot, and Stalin? Doesn't reality square much better with the notion of a god who is really unconcerned about us all?

    Your thoughts, from any perspective, are appreciated.
    Cadillac,

    I can only answer this question for myself. I can't answer why OTHER people aren't deists.

    Deism is the belief that G-d created the world/universe and then stepped back away from the day to day operation of that world/universe, and allows it to operate on its own without direct intervention.

    For me, it comes down to this... I have seen and experienced too much to think that G-d is not involved intimately with my life. I have experienced too many "coincidences" in my life to think that G-d isn't there. I've had my own life saved too many times to think that the universe is operating on "automatic". As an EMT, I've helped too many other people that I really didn't have the power to help on my own to think that there wasn't someone "out there" helping me do it. I've both experienced too much tragedy and avoided too much tragedy to think that anything is happenstance. I've done and seen too much to believe that the world is that random.

    Is it a scientific answer to your question? Nope. But that's MY reason for not being a Deist.

    As for your questions about Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, etc... there's a good book out there called "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People" by Harold Kushner. I don't agree with everything in the book (in fact, there are some parts of the book I strongly disagree with), but he does a good job of exploring the nature of good and evil in the world and why tragedies happen, and why G-d acts or doesn't act to prevent things from occurring. It might help answer some of your questions. Or it might just leave you with more questions. But I think it's worth a read.

    Elliot
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    simoneaugie Posts: 2,490, Reputation: 438
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    #40

    Sep 21, 2009, 02:45 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by earthmama View Post
    I believe that all religions,with good intent are pathways to God.The pathways start out differently,but all end up in the same place.(heaven)? Just a simple thought.
    I agree with you, but the thought is not simple to those who wish to be right. Being right is a part of feeling sane. It's not simple to those who are smart enough to question what appears (to us) be obvious. Those who have logic and intelligence as their strong suit and have not been brainwashed by childhood indoctrination of a mainstream religion, have issues with faith. Thinking about it and winning in the world with intelligence and logic makes the simplicity suspect to many.

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