[Tigerbob]

I'm going to be using my garage to make custom hardwood furniture. It's a 2 car garage, about 25'x21', only ever used for that purpose, and so is still in fairly basic condition. That means the wooden structure is still open both on walls and ceiling, and the floor is 2 large concrete slabs. The roof beams are about 9' high, above which there is a sloped roof, the highest point being about 5' above the beams. I intend to use this area to store lumber.

I need to get the garage floor leveled where one of the concrete slabs has cracked and subsided a couple of inches. When this is done I intend to epoxy the floor.

The next step after that is insulation, both to cut down the heat loss and the noise. And that's where I have a question.

Living in Michigan, I can expect cold winters and hot, relatively humid summers. I can figure out a way to keep the temperature workable, but what do I need to be thinking about to prevent excessive buildup of moisture and minimize the potential for mold? Damp proof barriers? Attic fan? Chemical treatment? Do I need to consider different problems when dealing with the exterior walls than I do when dealing with walls that adjoin the main house?

This really is not my area, so any info would be appreciated.

[ballengerb1]

Hey Bob, you may need to look into a small separte HVAC unit for this area. I recall your winters get down to 30 below and summers up to 95. I would treat this like a small separate home. Put in insulation, a vapor barrier and sheetrock. Attic fan would be nice but you must make sure you have soffit intake and a gable vent to let out the heat. The floor may not be done subsiding so even a pourable floor leveling concrete may not give you a crackfree finish.

[hkstroud]

I go along with Bob on the insulation and the separate heating and A/C system. You don't want to pull dust into you house system. No need to insulate the wall joining the house.

As to the floor, I think I would install an new floor. Install 2x6 or 2x8 joist with 3/4 plywood flooring. Use metal straps for blocking or install blocking on the bottom edge, next to the concrete, so you can get you ducts for your dust collection system (and your wiring to stationary machines) in between the floor joist. You are planning on having a dust collection system aren't you. The wooden floor will also be considerably easier on your feet. Install the plywood flooring in 4' X 4' sections, with screws, for easy access to the under floor area.

[Tigerbob]

Hey Bob, you may need to look into a small separte HVAC unit for this area. I recall your winters get down to 30 below and summers up to 95. I would treat this like a small separate home. Put in insulation, a vapor barrier and sheetrock. Attic fan would be nice but you must make sure you have soffit intake and a gable vent to let out the heat. The floor may not be done subsiding so even a pourable floor leveling concrete may not give you a crackfree finish.

Interesting thoughts - thanks.

[Tigerbob]

I go along with Bob on the insulation and the separate heating and A/C system. You don't want to pull dust into you house system. No need to insulate the wall joining the house.

As to the floor, I think I would install an new floor. Install 2x6 or 2x8 joist with 3/4 plywood flooring. Use metal straps for blocking or install blocking on the bottom edge, next to the concrete, so you can get you ducts for your dust collection system (and your wiring to stationary machines) in between the floor joist. You are planning on having a dust collection system aren't you. The wooden floor will also be considerably easier on your feet. Install the plywood flooring in 4' X 4' sections, with screws, for easy access to the under floor area.

Thanks to both you and ballengerb1. I've made some progress on this and compared my plans / current status against your observations.

I'm going to completely re-pour the floor. It's the only way to be sure of getting a stable surface that will last for years rather than months. I've had several quotes, the best being $2250 for a 6 mag mix, 4" thick with wire mesh on a compacted stone base. They'll tint this to a light grey (which will help keep the workspace light) and remove / haul all the old floor.

The wall is going to be dry-walled with blown-in insulation - more expensive but will take care of any gaps and as this is a 20 year rather than a 5 year workshop I'm hopeful of making the money back. The roof will be insulated with fiberglass. I've checked the roof space and there's good ventilation there.

Rewiring the garage to add extra outlets (110 and 220) is going to be the main cost, since it will mean installing a new sub panel. I also want a single disconnect for all the machinery since the kids go into the garage.

Other than that, the last thing is the lighting. We're going to put in a hung ceiling (is that the right term?), which will also allow for good lighting but will not result in too much loss of height.

Thanks to both of you for your thoughts, which have been most helpful.

[hkstroud]

Some thoughts.

Saw dust collection is going to be your biggest problem. I don't know how much lead time you have but now would be the time to plan that out . A central system requires a lot of large, bulky duct work. Suggest that you contact some one selling systems like Onida and get some assistance in planning out your system. You may be able to get some of the duct work under the floor or in the ceiling. Get the assistance, it requires the movement of a large volume of air and it doesn't work quite like we think it does.

Your table saw will probably sit in the middle of your shop. Put in conduit for you electrical cable. You won't need near the total electrical power you think you will. You will just need it in a lot of places. Unless you plan on hiring employees you won't be using but one machine at a time.
Most of you stationary machines will be on casters. Your jointer, planner, router table or shaper and drum sander will in most likely be stored around the walls and be pulled out for use. We would all like to use them where they sit but you would need a warehouse to do that. While we are on space, plan on needing a place to store material. It's going to take about twice what you think.

Plan on a stationary air compressor with drops around the shop.

In addition to a saw dust removal, plan on an air filtration system.

If you are planning on fluorescent lighting, add some incandescent light. All fluorescent lighting can make a spinning saw blade look stationary.

It's a small thing but I wouldn't mess with the tinting of the concrete, it's a shop floor. Besides the concrete is already gray. If I did anything I would use the epoxy like you originally planned. It may scratch or chip but it will at least seal the floor. You will be spilling things if you do any finishing. Make sure that it doesn't get slick from spills.

Don't plan on making a lot of money. People like wood and custom made furniture, but not enough to pay what you will have to charge. "I saw the same thing at Walmart, can you match their price" is not uncommon question.

[KISS]

I like HK's idea of putting in a wood floor, otherwise you'll be putting anti-fatique mats around each piece of equipment.

There are fancy poles for electrical drops and I've seen it done just with conduit.

Air is very important. Use silver solder (braze) and put drops from the ceiling with quick connects. You don't necessarily need the hose at all locations. You can move it around.

The electrical sub-panel can be used as the disconnecting means, You can use say a 200 A panel fed by a 100 A breaker. The wiring would be rated for 100A and the 200 A breaker can be used as the disconnect. Put a lock on the box and your set.

Use two breakers for lighting and keep them on circuits by themselves. If a ligting circuit fails, there is another to back it up and your not left in the dark.

Wiring your dust collection system will have issues and therefor a power pole with low and high voltage may not be a bad idea.

You can mount a 24 VAC energy limiting transformer at each location and tap into the power pole with a telephone like jack or you can hardwire it.


What I might do is use a 4 conductor cable and plug from the machine. One monitors power and is connected to the primary of a 24 V transformer. The other two contacts are reserved and would be OPEN if a machine is conneced and CLOSED if not.
Plugging in a dummy plug would bypass this connection.

So, two low voltage wires run back to your dust collection control. They activate a contact closure in parallel with the dummy plug, so either the dummy plug or the machine ativates a 24 V relay for each piece of equipment. I'll assume that a contact closure is all that's necessary to run the dust collection system.

Mount it close to the breaker box. You would also have the option of using current sensors mounted in the panel to activae the dust collection system. It's a cost/labor issue. Clearly the current sensor approach makes a clean installation and is less work.

In my high school, what they had was a large contactor with a key to turn on and an emergency stop. When the instructo left, he just hit the stop button and all the mchines were deenergised.

[hkstroud]

I take it that the concrete floor is made decision. The ideal floor would be some of the old raised computer flooring. It can be found at salvage yards but would probably take some searching. The better saw dust collections use gates with low voltage contact points. There are remote controls available to turn system on and off.

[KISS]

Yea, and it appears they use STUPID controllers.

These devices: http://www.ssac.com/timerscat/Sect8.pdf

Can be used to sense current. You can mount one in the breaker box and then run to a NEMA 1 enclosure with a backing plate.
The enclosure will be your dusst controller. Use DIN terminal blocks to lay out the controller.

A delay on break timer is another rmajor part needed. Create a delay after the machine stops before it turns off again. I'd say a delay from about 3-5 minutes.

It's nice, convenient and easy to build.

[zippit]

A suggestion for the walls is a barrier about 4' from ground up to resist puctures,I think corrugated tin is both attractive and cost effective you can get a trim that follows the corrugation of the metal it may collect a little dust on the lip of it but I would do something to protect the wall for a 20 yr plan most likely the shtrock will look like hell 5 yr down the road

[Tigerbob]

I like HK's idea of putting in a wood floor, otherwise you'll be putting anti-fatique mats around each piece of equipment.

There are fancy poles for electrical drops and I've seen it done just with conduit.

Air is very important. Use silver solder (braze) and put drops from the ceiling with quick connects. You don't necessarily need the hose at all locations. You can move it around.

The electrical sub-panel can be used as the disconnecting means, You can use say a 200 A panel fed by a 100 A breaker. The wiring would be rated for 100A and the 200 A breaker can be used as the disconnect. Put a lock on the box and your set.

Use two breakers for lighting and keep them on circuits by themselves. If a ligting circuit fails, there is another to back it up and your not left in the dark.

Wiring your dust collection system will have issues and therefor a power pole with low and high voltage may not be a bad idea.

You can mount a 24 VAC energy limiting transformer at each location and tap into the power pole with a telephone like jack or you can hardwire it.


What I might do is use a 4 conductor cable and plug from the machine. One monitors power and is connected to the primary of a 24 V transformer. The other two contacts are reserved and would be OPEN if a machine is conneced and CLOSED if not.
Plugging in a dummy plug would bypass this connection.

So, two low voltage wires run back to your dust collection control. They activate a contact closure in parallel with the dummy plug, so either the dummy plug or the machine ativates a 24 V relay for each piece of equipment. I'll assume that a contact closure is all that's necessary to run the dust collection system.

Mount it close to the breaker box. You would also have the option of using current sensors mounted in the panel to activae the dust collection system. It's a cost/labor issue. Clearly the current sensor approach makes a clean installation and is less work.

In my high school, what they had was a large contactor with a key to turn on and an emergency stop. When the instructo left, he just hit the stop button and all the mchines were deenergised.

Holy cow. You're clearly more comfortable and experienced with electrics than I am. Some interesting thoughts though, if I've understood them correctly. I've got my electrician coming over at the weekend and will mention to him - he's a good friend and will give me straight answers rather than just saying "yes" to anything he can make money on.

[Tigerbob]

Some thoughts.

Saw dust collection is going to be your biggest problem. I don't know how much lead time you have but now would be the time to plan that out . A central system requires a lot of large, bulky duct work. Suggest that you contact some one selling systems like Onida and get some assistance in planning out your system. You may be able to get some of the duct work under the floor or in the ceiling. Get the assistance, it requires the movement of a large volume of air and it doesn't work quite like we think it does.

Your table saw will probably sit in the middle of your shop. Put in conduit for you electrical cable. You won't need near the total electrical power you think you will. You will just need it in a lot of places. Unless you plan on hiring employees you won't be using but one machine at a time.
Most of you stationary machines will be on casters. Your jointer, planner, router table or shaper and drum sander will in most likely be stored around the walls and be pulled out for use. We would all like to use them where they sit but you would need a warehouse to do that. While we are on space, plan on needing a place to store material. It's going to take about twice what you think.

Plan on a stationary air compressor with drops around the shop.

In addition to a saw dust removal, plan on an air filtration system.

If you are planning on florescent lighting, add in some incandescent light. All florescent lighting can make a spinning saw blade look stationary.

It's a small thing but I wouldn't mess with the tinting of the concrete, it's a shop floor. Besides the concrete is already gray. If i did anything I would use the epoxy like you originally planned. It may scratch or chip but it will at least seal the floor. You will be spilling things if you do any finishing. Make sure that it doesn't get slick from spills.

Don't plan on making a lot of money. People like wood and custom made furniture, but not enough to pay what you will have to charge. "I saw the same thing at Walmart, can you match their price" is not uncommon question.

I would love to get some help planning a system, but budget constraints mean it's probably going to be just me at the moment. As for the collection itself, I saw a 1.5 horse Jet at Woodcraft yesterday for $370. It was labelled DC 1100M but I can't find it in their catalog. I need to go through the Delta catalog as well, but there seems to be some degree of choice for 1.5hp around the $400 price point. Anyone have views on Jet vs Delta for this? And I had been thinking about doing without dust filtration...

That's fascinating about fluorescent light. I never knew that.

I'll be putting in a false wall behind which I can store sheet goods. Hardwoods are going to be stored downstairs in the basement where I can control the humidity a bit better. My workbench is down there as well.

Yes, I'm aware that there is not a fortune to be made in this, but that's also why I'm trying to keep overheads down at the start. My wife has only so much patience!

[KISS]

You might be putting the cart before the horse. You dust collector should be sized according to the system it serves. This website offers a duct planning service for $100 or free if you buy a system from them. Ductwork Planning Service at Penn State Industries

Current sensors are abou $50, but you would have to realisticly make that a "cost per channel" ad that might end up being about $80.

You start splitting hairs when you want to lower the cost.

Lighting can make all the difference in the world when staining. The envirornment that the piece is going in should be known beforehand and staining done in that environment.

[hkstroud]

Check out this web site. Lots of nice people there and you can get a lot of help there.

http://www.woodworking.org/

My shop is in the basement and is slightly larger than yours. Actually, its in a basement under my garage, separate from the regular basement. I currently just use a shop vac similar to what you are considering. Keeping the saw dust down is the biggest problem. Originally thought I would just blow it outside but soon realized that that takes all heat and cooling out. Wish I had planned out a central vacuum system. I don't currently have an air filtration system and really need to do that. It's probably more important that the saw dust collection system. It not good for your health and there is a thick layer of dust on everything in the shop. I'm just a hobbyist that does a little cabinet and furniture on the side. If you are going to do this daily you will be spending a lot more time in the shop. You don't want to end up dead or develop some respiratory problem before you get to buy all your toys. Dust mask are inconvenient as heck.

You stated earlier that you expected the electric to be you biggest expense. That shouldn't be. If you can build furniture you should be able to drill holes and pull cable. At most you may have to have an electrician tie in a sub panel to your main panel. Sixty amps is probably more than you will ever need unless you plan on commercial or industrial size tools. I currently have a 3hp saw and a 5hp wood shaper, and 5hp planner. Never had a problem on 60 amps. Actually its 55 amps because I pulled 6/3 Romex to the sub panel.

I guess my main point is, plan on dust collection now or you will be like me and never get around to it.

[zippit]

Did the wall protection idea hit at all?

[Tigerbob]

did the wall protection idea hit at all?

Sorry - yes it did, potentially. It's something I am going to be pricing, but with the dozens of other things to do I hadn't got around to it yet!

[cyberheater]

"No need to insulate the wall joining the house."

He is in Michigan, so insulation is important and to make sure he uses at least 1/2 fire rated on the wall adjoing the house. Mud those joints and caulk on the top and bottom joints to that adjoining walls.