[Unknown008]

I've been wondering about this for some time now... Why do Catholics have statues of virgins, of a man on the cross representing Jesus when God said that we should not praise idols? Because that's how I see, it, idols!

The Israeli once made a golden cow to represent God, and He was not pleased the least. Instead, he was angry at them and wanted to kill them. (Exodus 32:10)

[RickJ]

The short answer: We have statues of the people we look up to not unlike having a picture on the wall of a long dead grandparent.

Here is some more detail that you might be interested in reading: Do Catholics Worship Statues?

[Unknown008]

Thanks for answering Rick! (I haven't seen you around for a long time heh!:))

I'll take a look at the link you provided. :)

[RickJ]

I'm around... but "invisible" - lurking in the shadows :)

[Unknown008]

LOL! I haven't seen you posting that is to say. Now now, I don't want to hijack my on thread, :eek: Cya then! :) I'll have a look at the link. There's pretty much to read...

[arcura]

Unknown008,
Yes Rick provided some excellent links to ponder with.
An idol is something that is worshiped such as in paganism.
Catholics do not worship statues just as people in a city park do not worship the statue of some person or hero that has been placed there.
The statues you might see in a cathedral are representative of saintly people held in high esteem.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Clough]

Hi, Unknown008!

My own, personal view on this, is that statues and any other representations of things or people in the form of statuary, paintings, ornaments, altar decorations and ornaments, chancel decorations and ornaments, rosaries, etc. that are placed in and around church buildings, in cemeteries, etc. can also be viewed as works of art. They most often are used as remembrances, commemorations and things to have to help us to be "in touch" in some tangible way with the things that we might believe as a matter of faith.

Works of art can be and are reflections of something that has happened in the past, how people feel or felt about something, how people might perceive things to be in their "world", or in the "world" of others and many other things.

Centuries ago, people in many different faiths didn't have cameras, t.v. or any of the other modern ways was "capturing" something, other than writing it down, so that it would stand the test of time. So, creating works of art, was a way of being able to have something that would last into the future so as to help generations in the future to be reminded of an historical event; somebody that should be remembered and thought about because of what that person taught and/or believed; to be reminded of the reasons as to why people of any certain faith might believe what they do and why they do things the way that they do in the practice of their faith, etc.

How people created their art because a matter of custom and tradition.

Examples of what a couple works of art within the Christian tradition might represent:

Paintings, pictures and statuary of praying hands is a reminder of a way to pray, and also to pray.

Paintings, pictures and statuary of Jesus hanging on the cross, are reminders of the suffering that Jesus went through to redeem us from our sins. In many denominations, Jesus is shown on the cross, but represented in such a way as showing that he had power over sin and death.

What those things represent, will also vary, depending on the belief of the individual.

Different denominations have different traditions that they like to continue over time. This is even true between different congregational bodies within a single denomination.

Thanks!

[Unknown008]

The point is that, here, not only do Catholics kneel to the statues (which I just read that is does not necessarily mean that they worship the statue) but they do also mention the name of for example, Virgin Mary, look after us... etc. The fact that they strike the statues, give them offerings, pray to them is what makes me think that they are worshipping idols.

Then maybe not all Catholics are like that, as I understand from the link given by Rick, and thanks again for that. I did think all Catholics were the same everywhere (silly me). The link made things clearer, as well as your answers. But I also think that in my country, there are some, is not most, catholics who are 'extremists'.

[paraclete]

Unknown008,

An idol is something that is worshiped such as in paganism.

Fred an idol is something that takes the place of God, this is why the people were told not to make images, because God didn't want them using someoneelse's image when they were relating to him. Today people have many idols but this whole statue thing has missed the point, the relationship is supposed to be one on one with God, there isn't supposed to be anyone else in the picture. Just another case of tradition nullifying the Word of God.

In this case the Catholic Church threw away one of God's commandments

[Athos]

Fred an idol is something that takes the place of God, this is why the people were told not to make images, because God didn't want them using someoneelse's image when they were relating to him. Today people have many idols but this whole statue thing has missed the point, the relationship is supposed to be one on one with God, there isn't supposed to be anyone else in the picture. Just another case of tradition nullifying the Word of God.

In this case the Catholic Church threw away one of God's commandments

Fred's answer was perfectly understandable. You have managed to twist it into something it was never intended to be. Obviously, the Catholic Church did not "throw away one of God's commandments". Equally obviously, you have a thing re the Catholic Church. One would think, in the 21st century, the canard about Catholics worshiping statues would be finally put to rest. Apparently not in your world.

[paraclete]

Fred's answer was perfectly understandable. You have managed to twist it into something it was never intended to be. Obviously, the Catholic Church did not "throw away one of God's commandments". Equally obviously, you have a thing re the Catholic Church. One would think, in the 21st century, the canard about Catholics worshiping statues would be finally put to rest. Apparently not in your world.

In my "world" the question does not arise because I am not confronted with these images when I go to a place of worship, but I do know people who find it confronting.

The reality is there are many "cunards" that are not lain to rest because the Catholic practice continues unabated. The only "thing" I have regarding the Catholic Chrurch is they didn't introduce me to Jesus

[Athos]

in my "world" the question does not arise because I am not confronted with these images when I go to a place of worship, but I do know people who find it confronting.

The reality is there are many "cunards" that are not lain to rest because the Catholic practice continues unabated. The only "thing" I have regarding the Catholic Chrurch is they didn't introduce me to Jesus

The word is "canard", not "cunard". Good grief! How revealing is that! Spare us your nonsense. Nobody's listening. Good night.

[paraclete]

Good grief! How revealing is that! Spare us your nonsense. Nobody's listening. Good night.

Canard "to half-sell a duck" I am not selling you any ducks or ocean voyages for that matter.

I know that you are not listening, this, of course, is the problem, no one is listening. It is just business as usual!

[Athos]

this, of course, is the problem, noone is listening. It is just business as usual!

Lol. You got THAT right! Sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Nice to see you have a sense of humor.

[Unknown008]

Canard "to half-sell a duck" I am not selling you any ducks or ocean voyages for that matter.

I know that you are not listening, this, of course, is the problem, noone is listening. It is just business as usual!

Well, I'm not listening either but I'm reading all these posts... I was thinking like you did paraclete. But the other arguments were pointed out, and now I understand. The point is that, they must never put these statues prior to God. If they keep them as a matter of art, then that's fine. But the moment that they put some 'importance' or 'consideration' in they so that they also consider these statues as powerful beings who can also save them apart from God, then that becomes a violation of the ten commandments.

And please, stop creating a thread if that's in reply to a post in here. I don't want the mods (Fr-Chuck) to have too much work, I quite know what being a mod requires, and please, make it easier for everyone. The thread is here, so post in here so that people can understand what's going on, OK?

The conversation however is good, keep it coming :)

[RickJ]

So, paraclete, do you also condemn ALL the Christian churches that have a cross in them?

[paraclete]

And please, stop creating a thread if that's in reply to a post in here. I don't want the mods (Fr-Chuck) to have too much work, I quite know what being a mod requires, and please, make it easier for everyone. The thread is here, so post in here so that people can understand what's going on, ok?

The conversation however is good, keep it coming :)

The main thread remains the same, we have the ability to put a heading on a reply and I use that facility when appropriate, like this has nothing to do with the main thread. As far as Chuck doing some work, he took on the job.:D

[paraclete]

Nice to see you have a sense of humor.

Yes I do, and what I notice is that this is a fairly humourless place, everyone takes themselves and the subject so seriously, like their world will end if they get it wrong.

But then that's religion for you, but do you know Scripture says; God Laughs.:D

[paraclete]

So, paraclete, do you also condemn ALL the Christian churches that have a cross in them?

I don't spend my time condemning anyone but I do have opinions about the difference between Christianity and religion. What was it Paul said, he hoped to save some?

Religious people cannot stand for anyone to have an opinion which is contrary to theirs, this is why they crucified Jesus. There are some who would say that the methodology employed in our christian churches today is just a continuation of pagan practices and in some places it is more apparent than others.

Consider this
Jesus sort the lost
Jesus preached the Kingdom of God
Jesus avoided preaching in buildings
Jesus didn't take a salary for his ministry
Jesus prayed on mountain tops not in Churches
Jesus went to the people, not demanded the people come to him

[JoeT777]

I've been wondering about this for some time now... Why do Catholics have statues of virgins, of a man on the cross representing Jesus when God said that we should not praise idols? Because that's how I see, it, idols!

The Israeli once made a golden cow to represent God, and He was not pleased the least. Instead, he was angry at them and wanted to kill them. (Exodus 32:10)

Catholics hold that to worship a statue to be a sin, just as Protestants do, (see Ex. 20:4-5 and Ex. 32:31). However, a symbol of our Christian faith is no more idolatry than for a Protestant to put the Christian 'fish' symbol on the bumper of their car. Come to think of it I thought I saw Southern Baptist preacher Jones kneeling in front of his car the other day. The car had one of those fish symbols on his bumper. I wonder if he was praying to the fish symbol so that the car would levitate or was he trying to start his car? What do you think – silly isn't it? There are no statues in Catholic Churches that are worshiped.

And then there is the first book of Chronicles, chapter 28 where David built Sole a Temple; “And for the altar of incense, he gave the purest gold: and to make the likeness of the chariot of the cherubims spreading their wings, and covering the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All these things, said he, came to me written by the hand of the Lord that I might understand all the works of the pattern.” (V18-19) David's plan clearly included statues of angels. Oops! Did David mess up? Maybe instead of starting the Kingdom of David he was worshiping pagan idols – you, think David was guilty of polytheism? After all there were 'two' statutes of angels. You know two is more than one and 'poly' means many (which is more than one) – hence David was a polytheist? Why would Christ want his linage starting with David if he was an evil polytheist? Or maybe symbols used to remind us of our heavenly goal is OK? Or should we through the fish back?

But, if we were to search Scripture further we'd see where statues were used by Moses. Oops again! We see in Exodus, 25 verses 18–20 “ Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. 19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other.” God spoke to Moses and TOLD him to build the statues. Was Moses like our good Southern Baptist preacher, standing behind the tabernacle trying to get the Hebrews started on their journey or was he worshiping the cherubs? Maybe keeping heavenly visions of our hope is better than a fishy bumpersticker – you reckon?


JoeT