[ETWolverine]

Excon would love to have the world believe that the bill doesn't say what it says, and that the people who say it does are all just making it up.

But apparently more than 65% of Americans seem to agree that it says what it says, and they want no part of it.

More and more seniors are reading the bill, and they have seen what it says too. And trying to deny that it says what it says to them has a tendency to piss them off. Pissing off seniors, one of the largest voting blocs in the nation, is not a smart move.

Even AARP, which had signed on to the bill a couple of weeks ago is now distancing itself from the bill... because they now also realize what the bill says about seniors, the group they supposedly represent.

Sorry, excon. That many people can't be wrong. Oh, perhaps they COULD all be wrong, but they have the words of the bill itself to support their position. And even if they are wrong, the result is the same: Obamacare is either going to be killed on the floor, or it will be the death of the Obama Presidency.

So you can talk about what the bill "doesn't say" all you want. The words are there. The people reading those words know what they mean (or perhaps they just THINK they do). And they don't like it.

That's all that counts.

Elliot

[tomder55]

Maybe I'm getting disinformation from the President himself.

At a town hall meeting Tuesday he said :

On the doctors' front, one of the things we can do is to reimburse doctors who are providing preventive care and not just the surgeon who provides care after somebody is sick. (Applause.) Nothing against surgeons. I want surgeons -- I don't want to be getting a bunch of letters from surgeons now. I'm not dissing surgeons here. (Laughter.)
All I'm saying is let's take the example of something like diabetes, one of --- a disease that's skyrocketing, partly because of obesity, partly because it's not treated as effectively as it could be. Right now if we paid a family -- if a family care physician works with his or her patient to help them lose weight, modify diet, monitors whether they're taking their medications in a timely fashion, they might get reimbursed a pittance. But if that same diabetic ends up getting their foot amputated, that's $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 -- immediately the surgeon is reimbursed. Well, why not make sure that we're also reimbursing the care that prevents the amputation, right? That will save us money. (Applause.)

The White House - Press Office - Remarks by the President at Town Hall on Health Insurance Reform in Portsmouth, New Hampshire

Surgeons did not particularly appreciate that distortion so they responded .

The American College of Surgeons is deeply disturbed over the uninformed public comments President Obama continues to make about the high-quality care provided by surgeons in the United States. When the President makes statements that are incorrect or not based in fact, we think he does a disservice to the American people at a time when they want clear, understandable facts about health care reform. We want to set the record straight.
Yesterday during a town hall meeting, President Obama got his facts completely wrong. He stated that a surgeon gets paid $50,000 for a leg amputation when, in fact, Medicare pays a surgeon between $740 and $1,140 for a leg amputation. This payment also includes the evaluation of the patient on the day of the operation plus patient follow-up care that is provided for 90 days after the operation. Private insurers pay some variation of the Medicare reimbursement for this service.

Three weeks ago, the President suggested that a surgeon's decision to remove a child's tonsils is based on the desire to make a lot of money. That remark was ill-informed and dangerous, and we were dismayed by this characterization of the work surgeons do. Surgeons make decisions about recommending operations based on what's right for the patient.

We agree with the President that the best thing for patients with diabetes is to manage the disease proactively to avoid the bad consequences that can occur, including blindness, stroke, and amputation. But as is the case for a person who has been treated for cancer and still needs to have a tumor removed, or a person who is in a terrible car crash and needs access to a trauma surgeon, there are times when even a perfectly managed diabetic patient needs a surgeon. The President's remarks are truly alarming and run the risk of damaging the all-important trust between surgeons and their patients.

We assume that the President made these mistakes unintentionally, but we would urge him to have his facts correct before making another inflammatory and incorrect statement about surgeons and surgical care.

News from the American College of Surgeons: Statement from the American College of Surgeons Regarding Recent Comments from President Obama

[excon]

Euphemistically or whatever, I don't see that as what "we've" been saying here. And I'm pretty sure you have a suspicion of government that in another time would lead you to see what we're seeing. You'll get there...

Hello again, Steve:

You're right. I DO suspect government... I suspect the NSA is reading every single one of our online communications, including THIS ONE. You don't. I suspect that they listen to every single one of our phone calls. You don't. I suspect the CIA lied to Pelosi. You don't.

So, let's get this straight... YOU trust 'em when YOU want to, and I trust 'em when I want to. Ain't no difference between you and me.

excon

[ETWolverine]

Hello again, Steve:

You're right. I DO suspect government... I suspect the NSA is reading every single one of our online communications, including THIS ONE. You don't. I suspect that they listen to every single one of our phone calls. You don't. I suspect the CIA lied to Pelosi. You don't.

So, let's get this straight... YOU trust 'em when YOU wanna, and I trust 'em when I wanna. Ain't no difference between you and me.

excon

No, excon. You've got it wrong.

We don't trust the CIA any more than you do. Or the NSA. They lie for a living. You can be sure they aren't being all that truthful with Congress either. (Although there are records, transcripts, witnesses, etc. that point out that they were completely truthful with Pelosi and SHE is the one lying. But that's an argument for another time.)

The difference is that the CIA and NSA haven't taken any public action that has in any way affected our liberty.

The President has. And continues to do so.

So you are more concerned with the fact that the CIA or NSA might be reviewing this conversation AND DOING NOTHING ABOUT IT than you are about the actions of a President and a Congress that are taking specific actions that limit your liberties. Worse, you want to hand the whole kit and kaboodle over to them so they can do it even more.

Please explain to me how handing the government the keys to your health care makes the CIA or NSA or any other part of the government less capable of intrusiveness in your life? If you are so afraid of the intrusiveness of the government, why are you giving them MORE power to be intrusive? Why are you supporting a bill that has specific provisions in it that allow the government access to your finances?

What, you think the NSA doesn't have access to enough of your computer records? They need MORE access?

Again, your logic has swiss-cheese holes in it.

[ETWolverine]

Excon,

You also didn't answer a single point made by Tom... evidence that Obama DID say things that aren't true about doctors and the current state of medicine. Evidence that Obama is guilty of disinformation.

But then again, you often ignore facts that are inconvenient for you.

Elliot

[hheath541]

This the official information released by the white house addressing all the information floating around online regarding health care reform.

Get the facts about the stability and security you get from health insurance reform | Health Insurance Reform Reality Check

Frequently Asked Questions about Health Insurance Reform | Health Insurance Reform Reality Check

Health Insurance Consumer Protections

Reports on Health Reform

[ETWolverine]

this the official information released by the white house addressing all the information floating around online regarding health care reform.

Get the facts about the stability and security you get from health insurance reform | Health Insurance Reform Reality Check

Frequently Asked Questions about Health Insurance Reform | Health Insurance Reform Reality Check

Health Insurance Consumer Protections

Reports on Health Reform

Yes, all of that is official from the White House.

So are the two bills, the one in the Senate and the one in the House.

The information being put out by the White House does not match what is in the bills. Therefore, the White House is putting out DISINFORMATION about what the Bills say.

It's official, all right. It's also a bunch of lies. Official lies are still lies.

Elliot