[omzig]

With what you pay for 1 or 2 FPE breakers, you could probably buy a new panel.

[tkrussell]

This is weird situation regarding FPE. Years ago ,when much younger and before the Internet was available, as with most people, we electricians "heard rumours" about FPE, and some authorities were serious about, that FPE had a recall on the Stab-Loc breakers. We in the industry just took it at face value,believed it and would tell customers that their FPE panel had to go. Hell. If the inspectors were pushing it, then it must be right, right? Inspectors are never wrong, we thought.

If you do some research on FPE now, you will not be able to find an actual recall, whether voluntary or forced, of FPE Stab-Lok. There is plenty of documentation now available on the Net that speaks of the unofficial recall.


Since you seemed to be trying to save money by building your own MTS, and I was shoving down your throat a product to buy, I figured I was up against a certain mindset to save money, and with all the false rumors about FPE, and I had no concrete information to back what I had been told over the years, no sense in trying to force you into changing a panel that had not given you any problems, with no valid reason.

Do a search for "FPE Stablok Recall" to see what I mean, no where will you find any agency or organization saying to rip it out. You will find where FPE did do some replacing of other breakers, in a college, which are large commercial type breakers.

Here is just a couple:
http://www.greatinspector.com/faq-elec-fed-pacif.html
http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magaz..._c/stablok.htm

FPE is still around making large switchboard equipment. The StabLok breakers, as I said, are still made by American Circuit Breakers, and can still be found in hardware stores, etc. for replacement. Funny ACBC has a cheesy website not worth referring to.

http://www.federalpacific.com/

So, with saving money being the focal point of your original question, and another answer agreeing with that point with the approval of using a homemade assembly, seemed like I was going uphill. And then you mention FPE, I figured all I was going to to was push the hill uphill with bringing up a "recall" that never happened, if I brought up the debate about FPE.

Thou I am glad to have one person bring up a personal experience with FPE, things like that can and do happen with all brands at one time or another, still not much for me to rely on to push you to changing your panel. I sure am glad ceilingfanrepair is OK, and now will not use FPE because of his experience.No argument from me on that.

Since I never actually saw any results of FPE problems myself, and then over the years learn that what I thought was true was only rumours, and then learn a few years ago that the recall never really did happen, what can I say?

I use to tell customers that their FPE had to go, and, of course, was told I just wanted to create more business for myself. Did I feel the fool years later once I became informed. Go figure, the inspectors were wrong. Once I became one, I wanted to be as accurate as possible.

But this is the great thing about this type of forum, a healthy open discussion and exchange of ideas and sharing personal experiences, and comparing those to our own experience and knowledge. Having said that, seems this worked very well, and now have you hearing others with real events to share, and giving you the information to allow you to make sound decisions.

I try to answer questions point blank, without adding my opinion or getting someone to do more work or spend more money that they originally came here for. Now, seems, with this discussion, you, not us, have decided to change the entire service. Great!

Correct, the ProTran unit I offered is not necessarily the unit to use if you upgrade the service. Before you decide to upgrade from 70 amps to 200 amps, and if UG or OH is the way to go, really need to do the calculations to see what size service you do need. No guessing here on size of service.

But, if 100 amps is the size you need, and for a couple hundred dollars more gets you a 200 amp, no problem, I will not try to persuade you to stay with 100 amps. I am always for exceeding the minimums, if someone is willing to spend the extra dollars.

Judging by the 70 amp service with such few circuits, 100 amps is probably more than sufficient. To do the actual calcs, need the square footage of livable space, a list of all stationary electric appliances, type of heat, size of AC. Any future needs or plans to add on to the home?

Whether to go overhead or underground is difficult to say, without knowing or seeing the actual layout of the site. There are several issues to look at and compare costs. Aerial would be less expensive, since the utility will probably furnish the OH feeder for no charge, if that is the standard method in your neighborhood.

UG has its benefits, but the utility may charge for the UG feeder, or may furnish up to a certain distance for no charge. If electric goes UG, then you may want to have telephone and CATV go UG also, this can get more expensive and bit more complicated with dealing with other utilities.

A SWAG (Scientific Wild Guess) estimate, OH 200 amp service... $1500.00, a UG 200 amp service, with trenching, utility fees, and getting the other utilities UG while your at it... $3000.00. Keep in mind, I have no idea of distances, types of materials needed, market, just a guess to show ratio.

So, I am glad my subtle mention of FPE got someone's attention, without making me look like a typical snake oil salesman, and got you thinking about upgrading your service. If you like we can proceed from here if you want to furnish more details to size your service and decide which way to go.

A new service will allow a different transfer switch/generator panel to be considered, one that is better suited or can be more useful being incorporated into the service, rather than just an add-on.

[labman]

To run my refrigerator, freezer, pump, and furnace all at once would only take 4056 watts. And they seldom would all running at once leaving me plenty for lights and maybe even short runs of the microwave. I also realized that 6250 watts is only 26 amps divided evenly between 2 legs. That puts it in a 30 amp breaker and #10 wire. However, if I set up a subpanel with all that plus a few lighting and receptacle circuits, I think I would want a more robust feed from the main panel for routine use. Likely one of the peak amps would be when the power went off and came back on with both the freezer and refrigerator making hot starts as the line voltage ramps back up. Sometimes I think when it seems to take several tries for the power to come on and stay on, it means it has to shed load by popping breakers or frying motors. I often shut my stuff off until the power stabilizes.

Until I decided I need a more robust feed from the main panel, I was really thinking of a double throw switch. I am not having much luck finding what I think I need. Mouser Electronics lists a NKK switch, S732-RO 25 amps resistive load. That is borderline, costs $50, and it wouldn't have the sturdy look to reassure the guy checking out the lit up house before he climbs the pole. Guess I am back to looking at sub panels with a transfer switch.

The ice storm 2 years ago really threw a scare into me. We were lucky, our power was only off a few minutes. I think there were thousands of customers in our county without power for 2 weeks. We lose electricity, the furnace, the water, and even the phone goes. Fortunately, it stayed warm. We often have a storm, and then the bottom drops out of the thermometer. Without electricity to power the furnace, the pipes would freeze.

[labman]

Disconnect switches and breakers should be no higher than 6.5 feet to the top handle. No minimum on lower, just need to use common sense, like protection from physical damage and water spray, dont't mount so low that snow will bury it, things like that.

Sure, sideways is not a problem, looks a little weird, but electricity does not care. No specific code exists to worry about.

I ask about sideways because the dryer sits under the main panel. There is about 10''-11'' down to it. So I could fit say a 10'' x 14'' panel in the same wall cavity if I put it in sideways. I figured it would work, but wasn't sure about code. A white or green wire will work as a hot wire. I guess common sense covers not locating a panel where you have to move the dryer to open the door.

I am not sure about the dryer or other stuff on the floor under a panel, but the house was built in 1970 with the dryer outlet in the same corner as the box. I am still not sure if there is any building inspection here.

Splicing branch circuits in the panel they are supplied from is allowed. These types of transfer switches rely on this practice for easy installation.

I was hoping so, but mounting it under the main panel would reduce the splices needed, never a bad idea. Mounting it in the next wall cavity would mean Swiss Cheesing the stud between as well as as bunch of splices.

The equipment ground and neutral from the generator will connect to the main panel's neutral bar, and separated if applicable.

Would it be a good idea to have the neutral and ground separated along with the other work?

[omzig]

A white or green wire will work as a hot wire.

Code-wise I don't think that this is true. Green can never be used as a hot. White can be reidentified if it's in a cable, but can't be used as a hot if it's single wire in conduit.

[omzig]

My point was things I know will work will create problems

:o Ah, sorry didn't catch that. I thought that was strange coming from someone with your knowledge.

[labman]

I spent some time at Lowe's and home Depot today and wasn't happy with what I found. The 10-3 SO cord didn't have a ground that I would need for a 4 wire connection. No double throw switches more than 20 amps. No small sub panels. Everything they had was labeled main lug. They actually had reliance transfer switches in stock, but I am not sure I like the way they work seeming to require a hot wire out to the switch, and then back to the main box plus running 60 amp service out to the switch. It also comes as a kit with a 25 foot cord that will only be a problem of excess cord. No double throw breakers. $50 for a power inlet box, just a water tight box with a 4 prong plug on the bottom. At least the unit is small enough to fit between my panel and the dryer.

[tkrussell]

There is much more options available at real electrical supply houses or wholesalers like Wesco, Graybar, Grainger. The box stores only carry a minimum of what is popular for light duty residential and there are limits because of the amount of parts and materials.

Check out the online Grainger catalog, works pretty good. Not the best prices but good for ideas and specs.

[omzig]

You guys ever see one of these?: http://www.interlockkit.com/intro2.htm

[labman]

$150 for a stupid little plate? What a rip off! Still maybe a cost effective solution. I could easily make one, but getting UL certification would cost thousands. Their list didn't show my 36 year old box. I have sent them the model number and other details including the age.

If they can furnish a kit, I think will go that way. That will require nothing more than running a cable out to a power inlet plus a short flexible cord. Likely I will sacrifice my dryer outlet saving shoehorning in a double pole breaker with 22 of the 20 slots already taken. If I want my power inlet outside the fence, using the dryer outlet wiring will save trying to run another cable through the already over crowded over lap between the garage wall cavity and the crawl space. We have a gas dryer. The outlet has not been used since my old air compressor wore out a few year ago. If I ever need it, I can do something then.

It will make all the circuits available. If I want something out of one of the spare bedrooms, I can flip the light on long enough to find it.

[newaukumdon]

You are a bright guy, so unless I missed something you are aware of the dangers of backfeeding? Just a courtesy check.

[omzig]

$150 for a stupid little plate? What a rip off!.

Oh, but it comes with a drill bit and stickers too! LOL. This is another one of those things where you say "Why didn't I think of that?" They're probably making a fortune.

[labman]

Some cold night when the line man knocks on my door, the stickers may be worth more than the plate. Otherwise I figure if I am lucky, he takes my meter and tells me to ask customer service about getting it back.

[labman]

Their website didn't really have anything that looked like my ancient panel. I emailed them the model number and all the details. They emailed back wanting pictures. OK, I had an almost finished film in my camera including the first pictures on my new puppy. I got a picture of the panel and then took one of our 2 dogs drinking out of the same pan together. The film wouldn't rewind. I finally did it by hand working in what I hope was a dark enough closet. Dropped the film off at Wal-Mart. I also picked up batteries for the cheap little digital camera I have, not even a flash. I set up my 500 watt work light and took some pictures. They look fairly good and emailed them.

I mentioned locating the power inlet outside the fence. I had a dog chew up the flex for the A/C supply. I replaced it with rigid steel conduit. I wasn't going to risk EMT.

[labman]

Another possibility,
http://www.generlink.com/about_generlink.cfm

If the price isn't outlandish, and my utility will cooperate, I really think this is the way to go. Nothing else to do except pick up the flexible cord I will need with any of the systems. Well likely if I run it outside the fence, I should support it somehow besides drooping it over the wire fence. It would mean retaining my dryer outlet, and neither poking about my main panel or paying somebody else to do it. No questions about who did the work, and no widowhood for my wife.

What ever it costs, I should get more for my money than a metal plate and some stickers.

[newaukumdon]

GenerLink™ is installed by your local electric utility in less than 30 minutes. There is no need for you to be home and there is no need to rewire the house

That should give an idea of cost. There is also the assumption your local utility is abreast of the product. Would be very interested in results.

[labman]

Well, I guess I won't be going this way.

Product Part #: MA23-N Generlink, Non-Surge
MA23-S Generlink, Surge
With Cable: MA23-N MA23-S
$ 650* $ 725*

I did find this, http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Gener...7/002-5907505-

Still waiting to here back on a lock out plate to fit my box.

[labman]

If anybody has a Square D box, or is planning a new one, this is a great deal, http://ecatalog.squared.com/techlib/...00892680126e4f The price is only $30.

Still haven't heard back from the $150 rip off people.

[newaukumdon]

It looks to be a kit specific to a panel purchased in advance knowledge of a generator need.
Might be a good idea. It seems a little like reinventing the wheel.

[jorgef]

you will not have any protection of the generator power if any circuit using a 3 way switch, if a short or an overload occurs the generator will continue to deliver power until one of two things happen, the short or overload burns the brach circuit wiring or the genset will fail.

RE: Running a furnace via a 3-way switch connected to a generator.

It sounds like a furnace 3-way switch connected to a generator via a power inlet receptacle works just like a transfer switch, but with no circuit breaker. Is this the only difference?

Does it then follow that connecting a refrigerator or other appliance directly to a generator with an extension cord would present the same problem?

Lastly, is there any possible scenario where a 3-way switch could backfeed?