[twelvemonkeys]

Ok, update... so thinks are pretty bad. I don't know why, but I just cannot give this girl up. We were supposed to go to Oregon with her sister... they were going to pick me up at my family's along the way and spend the night before continuing the journey. I totally made this trip happen for my wife's sister. Then out of nowwhere, my wife calls and tells me I am uninvited. They don't want to "put miles on their cars" when they drive back to drop me off. Even though when her sister was begging me to go she said she'd put as many miles as it took, she didn't care. I feel really upset, I can't believe they would just drop me like this. So, I express my upsetness while my wife has me on speaker. Now, because I was upset for 15 minutes her whole family thinks I'm the crazy one. They deemed me unreliable and all this stuff. It just frustrates me how much my wife doesn't care or support me. I feel like whenever we are a part, I disappear. She doesn't charge her phone or call me, except for when she wants something or to yell at me. I just wish she'd call to say she loves me. Anyway, she doesn't even want me to pick her up from the airport, instead she's having her dad do it! I just want a better relationship, one where she wants me to be the one to pick her up with flowers and such. That really bothers me. So, they still came to spend the night and at that point I was really upset and not in a mood to even see her. I thought I wanted to break up with her. So, I told her she and her sister could sleep on the floor downstairs in the bed I made. She started crying - wanting to sleep in my room. I was too upset for that so they ended up leaving and getting a hotel. I ran out and begged her to stay. I was upset but I didn't want her to leave! I was trying to be a good person by keeping to my word and letting them stay at my family's home even when I was upset with both of them.

Now, they won't answer their phones when I call. I just wish she'd pick up. I always respond to her and make sure I at least pick up for a short time just because it's the respectable thing to do as one's partner. I feel miserable, like I can't go on... with or without her. I know she doesn't care for me and that kills me. I just wish she'd care and show me decency and support and respect. The only time she called me was to beg me to get weed for her from a dealer, with about 5 hours notice.

Her old boyfriend she would walk around with his picture and would talk to him for hours at a time. She treats me like dirt and I become invisible when I'm not around her. I hate it. It makes me sad, I cry like every night. Now, because of the way I acted, I'm crazy and I'm sure they never want to speak to me again. I don't know what to do. I just want to talk to her and be nice... I miss her.

[N0help4u]

You have lost your total identity in her insanity and you can't even see what it is doing to you.
You are a glutton for punishment if you keep staying with her or you for some strange reason like the drama.
Maybe you should go in the opposite direction for your own vacation and clear your head.
Maybe if you have time away from her and your familiar surroundings it will help you to think straight.

Pack your bags and go somewhere before she gets back and do some soul searching on a beach or something.

[talaniman]

Harshness alert

Quit crying, man up, and leave this ABUSE. Thats simple.

Ain't that much love in the world, to make me sit, and take the abuse that your taking. Worse yet, bringing a child into this dysfunctional relationship, is a horrible thought. NO WAY!!!

She is making you into the nut case she is. Whining is not your solution, leaving is. Who knows, maybe she will be so heartbroken not having someone to crap on, she may get some real help. If not, that's her problem to deal with.

Sorry guy, I really feel for you, but you need to take care of yourself, because its obvious, YOU CANNOT HELP HER!

IF YOU CAN'T LEAVE, THEN ACCEPT IT, AND BE QUIET!!!!!

[asking]

Whoa! Baby? Child? I missed that. If that's come up, DON'T have one.

All the same, I'd go easier on twelvemonkeys. Abusive relationships can seem mysterious if you haven't been in one.

Monkeys, I think you need to establish No Contact for the foreseeable future and find yourself again. I hope you can find the strength to do this.

I strongly recommend some form of therapy if you can afford it. You need to build up yourself esteem. Think about what you want to do with your life. Do you have a career you care about? This is the time to throw yourself into it. If not, consider taking some classes at the local junior college. Find something that will get you out of your own head and get HER out of your head.

Whatever you do, don't jump into another relationship now. Give yourself at least 6 months. Someone told me however long the relationship was, give yourself half that time to get back to who you are.

I know you feel awful now, but in many ways, you are very lucky. You have no children, which means that once you are divorced, you never have to see her again. It's the best for both of you that you end this toxic relationship soon.

[Gemini54]

Dear twelvemomkeys, I'm going to go easy on you too, because my husband was in a relationship exactly like yours (worse, in fact)- but he got out.

Please go back to the Shrink4men website - re-read the articles and the posts by other men. Please go to this link below which describes really succintly how abusive women control their partners through the fear of loss:

How Emotionally Abusive Women Control You: The Fear of Loss and the Need for Approval A Shrink for Men

Yes, she is ABUSIVE and she is pressing all your buttons now. She has a PHd in this form of manipulation and you can rest assured that she will make sure everyone thinks that you're the abusive one. The more you continue to respond emotionally and sometimes irrationally, the more she will use that against you to demonstrate that you're the one that's unhinged. (And, she will never forget it.)

I speak from personal experience of a woman that behaves like this. Please believe me when I tell you that there is no way you will get the love you desire or make her understand what you want. It will never be about what you want, it will always be about her.

Leave while you can and while you have no real ties to her except financial ones. Give her what she demands financially. The pain you will experience at the break up of your marriage is nothing compared to the pain you will experience if you stay. It will be absolute hell.

[asking]

Hi Gemini and TwelveMonkeys,

I'm a little uncomfortable with the shrink4men website myself, just because some of the wording is the kind that actual abusive men use to try to falsely make it sound like it's the woman who is abusive.

For example, to take the very first thing on the page:

Emotionally abusive women will:
Threaten you with abandonment (If you don't shape up, I'm leaving).

I don't think this is abusive. If a man is abusive and the woman threatens to leave if he doesn't stop, she's not being abusive. Same in reverse, if a man threatens to leave because he's unhappy in the relationship, that's not abuse. That's setting limits. The two people may not agree about those limits, but that's something to talk about. A grown man is not a child who can be "abandoned."

If the named threats (children, money, career) are directed at keeping a man in a relationship and controlling his behavior, then it may well be abuse. But the "threats" listed at shrink4men are the kinds of threats that abusive men project onto women when she wants to LEAVE the relationship, not force him to stay in it. In fact, these are the very threats women typically hear when they want to leave an abusive relationship. He says, "If you leave, I will take the children from you, I will take the house, I will make sure you lose your job; you will live on the street."

The page goes on to talk about losing access to children. But instead of reassuring men that this is an empty threat, it argues that it is worth it to leave. Even abusive men often get half time custody of their children. There's no reason a good dad would have less. So it is not reasonable to assume he will lose access to his children if starts from the assumption that he will have them half time.

I am not sure if I am being very clear. But I think that this particular web site serves to justify men who are themselves abusive (and expect, for example, to lose their children). That's NOT to say that the men who read it are all abusive!

What Abuse IS:
Abuse is a pattern of controlling behavior. (And people who are leaving a relationship are not normally trying to control the other person.) I believe TwelveMonkey's wife is abusive. But I think TwelveMonkeys will get a more accurate sense of what constitutes abuse from a website such as the National Domestic Violence Hotline.

[Gemini54]

Hi Gemini and TwelveMonkeys,

I'm a little uncomfortable with the shrink4men website myself, just because some of the wording is the kind that actual abusive men use to try to falsely make it sound like it's the woman who is abusive.

For example, to take the very first thing on the page:



I don't think this is abusive. If a man is abusive and the woman threatens to leave if he doesn't stop, she's not being abusive. Same in reverse, if a man threatens to leave because he's unhappy in the relationship, that's not abuse. That's setting limits. The two people may not agree about those limits, but that's something to talk about. A grown man is not a child who can be "abandoned."

If the named threats (children, money, career) are directed at keeping a man in a relationship and controlling his behavior, then it may well be abuse. But the "threats" listed at shrink4men are the kinds of threats that abusive men project onto women when she wants to LEAVE the relationship, not force him to stay in it. In fact, these are the very threats women typically hear when they want to leave an abusive relationship. He says, "If you leave, I will take the children from you, I will take the house, I will make sure you lose your job; you will live on the street."

The page goes on to talk about losing access to children. But instead of reassuring men that this is an empty threat, it argues that it is worth it to leave. Even abusive men often get half time custody of their children. There's no reason a good dad would have less. So it is not reasonable to assume he will lose access to his children if starts from the assumption that he will have them half time.

I am not sure if I am being very clear. But I think that this particular web site serves to justify men who are themselves abusive (and expect, for example, to lose their children). That's NOT to say that the men who read it are all abusive!

What Abuse IS:
Abuse is a pattern of controlling behavior. (And people who are leaving a relationship are not normally trying to control the other person.) I believe TwelveMonkey's wife is abusive. But I think TwelveMonkeys will get a more accurate sense of what constitutes abuse from a website such as the National Domestic Violence Hotline.

Dear asking, the Shrink4men website is aimed at men that are in relationships with abusive women, and are themselves being abused. It focuses, in particular on advice to men who live with women that display NPD and BPD characterists. The author of the website uses strong words to describe these women - and, as you rightly note, this is confronting.

I don't believe that it is a website that condones male violence towards women, but it is one of the few websites that acknowledges that women with personality disorders can be intentionally emotionally and verbally abusive towards men and that this is a form of family/domestic violence.

I recommended this website because my husband's ex wife is personified on virtually every page, and because she suffers from Narcissitic Personality Disorder. We live with her abuse on a daily basis and having read the posts by Twelvemokeys many of the behavioral traits he describes COULD be attributed to a personality disorder such as this. The threats that the author of shrink4men lists are the very threats and strategies that my husband's ex wife used and continues to use with him, particularly with regard to his children.

Perhaps you may have misread some of the meaning, due to the strong wording, but I don't believe that the author uses the website to justify abuse towards women. I would never, ever recommend it if I thought that was the case!

Of course Twelvemonkeys should seek advice and information from other sources, as you again so rightly point out, that is what a Forum such as this is all about.

[twelvemonkeys]

Thank you everyone for your responses. They give me a lot of strength. So, after not talking for a couple days we've decided that it's best that I move out and find my own place. She is going to move back in with her parents. She thinks we need to go back to the beginning and start over with dating and such.

I don't know if I will continue to see her... she is going to get counseling and so am I.

Also, about the kids issue, she hates kids... so that takes care of that.

Thanks again.

[Jake2008]

Good for you for finding a better path for yourself.

I am glad you are in counselling for yourself. It's good to have a person to talk to who can objectively help you work through all of this.

Best of luck to you.

[talaniman]

She hates herself right now, so don't be like her.

Good Luck!

[Gemini54]

Thank you everyone for your responses. They give me a lot of strength. So, after not talking for a couple days we've decided that it's best that I move out and find my own place. She is going to move back in with her parents. She thinks we need to go back to the beginning and start over with dating and such.

I don't know if I will continue to see her... she is going to get counseling and so am I.

Also, about the kids issue, she hates kids... so that takes care of that.

Thanks again.

Glad to hear that you can have some time separate from her to seek some help for yourself and lick your wounds. Just a word of advice - you can never go back to the beginning.

[asking]

Dear asking, the Shrink4men website is aimed at men that are in relationships with abusive women, and are themselves being abused. It focuses, in particular on advice to men who live with women that display NPD and BPD characterists. The author of the website uses strong words to describe these women - and, as you rightly note, this is confronting.

Gemini, You are a generous and insightful contributor, and I don't mean to dismiss your views in this one area. I have had a lot of people tell me that my ex husband must be a narcissist or borderline and in many ways he seems both. Is he one, both, neither? I try not to worry about what he is, but to recognize the behaviors that are not okay, so that I don't do them myself and don't do anything that would encourage my children to do them. Supporting them in acknowledging emotionally confusing and hurtful behavior, without actually calling it "abusive," has been a major activity for me in the last 8 years. So I guess, I just think that the specific way this web site defines abuse confuses the issue and provides cover for abusers of both sexes.

Sorry for high jacking this thread!
*********

Congratulations to Twelve Monkeys!

I am so happy you are going to have some peace of mind for a change. I hope that you feel great relief. If you don't have a firm network of friends, nows the time to start building one. Be patient and reach out to other people. It's hard to acknowledge a failed marriage. I felt like a failure even when I didn't feel that divorce was a mistake. But you are laying the groundwork for a better future.

Good luck and hope you check back in and tell us how you are doing.

[twelvemonkeys]

I am so depressed, I just want to die. So, since that fight at my house.. she said she wanted me to live somewhere else and we could date for a few months and if it went well she would move back in with me. She said she loved me and missed me and everything.

Now, two weeks later I have moved out into the house we own together, by myself. I'm trying to get housemates.

Now though, she doesn't want to see me whatsoever. She changed her myspace page to divorced and took off ALL the pictures of me she had up so lovingly before. She put in her interests "Not divorced, separated" She has been so cold in her texts, when I say I love you she says nothing..

I am utterly depressed and alone. I miss her so much and just want everything back. I had her, I had the girl of my dreams loving me and now it's gone. I worked so hard to get into her heart.. she had pictures of me up all over her site!! Something I had always wanted and now it's gone. Everything is gone and how the hell am I going to get it back... right now?

[twelvemonkeys]

She wants a separation for three months.. she said she considers it open, isn't looking but expects me to be.. She doesn't want to talk or see each other at all and won't even do couples counseling. She wants me to get a life and a job.. which I just got.

So, I just wait 3 months and see what happens? It is awful not being able to talk to her and know what she is thinking.. well I do, from her myspace to an extent and it's not looking good.

[Jake2008]

Well, the plan was for her to move back in with her parents, and you were going to stay in the house. That part went according to plan.

It seems that she is now considering the relationship with you as over.

She is not behaving in a way that suggests by any stretch, that she is interested in the original plan of starting over from a distance, by dating.

That much is pretty clear. At this point, it doesn't matter how much you love her, or how hurt and disappointed you are. That is not going to fix, or re-start the relationship.

While I understand your disappointment, I think that in retrospect, this may have been something that you might have expected to happen. And it has. She has separated from you physically, now emotionally as well. She does not have the same feelings for you, that you have for her.

I would advise you to work on getting your own life on track. Don't contact her to tell her you love her, don't run yourself emotionally ragged trying to figure out the changes on her Facebook. To you, she has no reason not to love you back, but to her, she does.

Respect her space, and work on getting over the relationship. I think it's a long shot that she will ever want things back to the way they were. She has already moved on.

Don't stop living because of false hope. It is what it is. Time to put yourself first, stop contacting her, and move on with your own life. Don't put your life on hold for anybody, because you are only wasting time.

And speaking of time, we all only have so much of it, and when its gone, its gone. Living on hope and dreams waiting for them to happen will leave you in a place where you accomplish nothing.

While it is sad, yes, that it is over, it is time for you to let go.

[talaniman]

My best advise it to see a lawyer, and handle your business. There is plenty of time to cry later. For now you have to make yourself not only independent of her, but need a solid foundation in which to build.

I hate it that your going through this, I really understand have the rug ripped from under you. That's no excuse to rollover and play dead though. Now is the time to get back up and establish yourself, and show you count. She sure the heck is not going to help!

Do this for yourself, and your future, and forget the myspace stuff. And believe nothing she tells you from this point on. Its about you now. No more false hope, or butt kissing.

[claudia29]

How is evrything Going ? Did you guys move apart? I am going through the same with my boyfriend of 3 yrs. He is verbally abusive, smokes... has cheated on me... we have a lease until February and I'm thinking of leaving him but I am in love with him and feel I have invested a lot in our relationship that I stay and try to make it work but things keep going back to the same thing, its like we can't be happy...

[twelvemonkeys]

Thank you for the replies, they are really giving me a wake up call and a boost to start my life.

I'm moved 9 hours from my childhood home to be with her and it's also where the house we bought is (the one I'm living in).. I found roommates and got a part-time job and am starting to make friends.. Should I proceed to stay here for 3 months and see how it plays out?

It sucks that I have to pay her her half of the rent but it's not that expensive. I'm thinking I should just do it.

[twelvemonkeys]

Hi Claudia, yes we moved a part. She demanded I move out of the house we were renting together and so I did and moved to the house we own, she is living with her parents about 15 minutes away.

I am banned from going there and we have not seen each other in about a month. It seems like she is getting further and further from wanting to be with me. I'm just waiting it out but trying to start a life for myself as well. Even though the only reason I am here is for her, I will try to change that. It is very hard.

Good luck to you Claudia, let me know how your situation goes.

I just feel like everything was a lie.. the marriage, when she said I love you, I knew it too! That's why I pulled away, I was right and it sucks. Don't know what to do about that, now I just want to believe that she loves me - she said it so many times.. but it had to be fake.

[talaniman]

Be advised that a lawyer can tell you what YOUR rights are, and what she can DEMAND, and can't. I wouldn't pay her a Louie without the lawyers advice. Consultation can be free.

I did say no butt kissing didn't I??