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    logicalthinker's Avatar
    logicalthinker Posts: 58, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Aug 8, 2009, 04:39 PM
    Concern of abuse
    A friend of mine was concerned about some behavior of her 4 year old granddaughter so I figured we might be able to get some insight on here. Several times over the past couple days, she has discovered the child trying to stick things inside her vagina. I know it's normal for kids to explore down there. My question is whether this particular behavior is normal. I can't see how a little girl that young would even figure out there was a hole there to stick things in, but it may just be something I never experienced with my daughters. Also, when the child is asked about it, she gets defensive and upset. I can say with certainty that she is not being disciplined or belittled for it. Myself and my friend are very concerned about the situation. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
    N0help4u's Avatar
    N0help4u Posts: 19,823, Reputation: 2035
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    #2

    Aug 8, 2009, 04:43 PM

    Is the friend the mother?
    Maybe she should start watching for other things like who is she left alone with and things like that.
    logicalthinker's Avatar
    logicalthinker Posts: 58, Reputation: 1
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    #3

    Aug 8, 2009, 04:48 PM

    The friend is the grandmother. She does not have custody of the child, but the child is often there for weeks on end without any word from the mother. Both the mother and father are content to ship her off to whoever will take her. She doesn't really have a way to monitor it.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #4

    Aug 8, 2009, 05:00 PM

    Hello l:

    I just think it's kid exploring. At 4, I'm absolutely certain she knows there's an opening there...

    excon
    jmjoseph's Avatar
    jmjoseph Posts: 2,727, Reputation: 1244
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    #5

    Aug 8, 2009, 05:49 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello l:

    I just think it's kid exploring. At 4, I'm absolutely certain she knows there's an opening there...

    excon
    I agree with this. Maybe she "found" it while in the tub. I hope so.

    However, a guy I work with has a friend who has a step daughter that is 9, and is already masturbating. The step father was charged after they sent the girl to a counselor who "extracted" an accusation about the guy molesting her. THEY said that such behavior is indicative of sexual molestation. I say that some children explore, and start doing things like that earlier than others.

    Again, I hope so.
    JoeCanada76's Avatar
    JoeCanada76 Posts: 6,669, Reputation: 1707
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    #6

    Aug 8, 2009, 05:54 PM

    Masturbation and exploring is normal behavior. Many people I think over react to this kind of behavior and automatically think something is wrong.
    Jake2008's Avatar
    Jake2008 Posts: 6,721, Reputation: 3460
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    #7

    Aug 8, 2009, 07:54 PM
    I agree with the others that it seems harmless enough, and not to panic or over react with the child is a good idea. This sounds like a new behaviour as you said it's only happened the past couple of days.

    But, your question noted 'concern of abuse', and I'm curious why you stated it that way.

    With the grandmother having her weeks on end, why can't she monitor the child. Perhaps if she is concerned about any form of abuse, or development problem, her instinct could be right, and she should do some checking even via Google.

    Sexual Abuse of Toddlers: Six Behavioral Signs to Look for in Your Child - Associated Content
    logicalthinker's Avatar
    logicalthinker Posts: 58, Reputation: 1
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    #8

    Aug 8, 2009, 08:04 PM

    I guess I should have clarified that the behavior started again.. they also witnesses her doing this a couple years back. They can monitor who is with the child when they are around her. She doesn't have any type of custody of the child and the father/mother are able to come whenever they want to pick up the child. Which occasionally they do, then they ship her off when they are bored with her. Other than the fact that she is trying to stick objects inside herself, I'm not sure what other reasons they have to think it may be abuse. A red flag went off in my mind because when the child was in my care she told me that sometimes her privates hurt. This alone didn't alarm me, I have a 6 year old and that sometimes happens to her when she doesn't wipe properly or wipes to hard. But that combined with what I was told today worried me a bit. Does anyone have any experience with their own child or a child they knew doing this to the point where they were hurting themselves? I agree that we as a society in general are quick to jump to the conclusion of molestation, but at the same time, I hear about it so often that I wouldn't want to blow it off as paranoia either. Thank you everyone that has responded so far.
    spiritcharms's Avatar
    spiritcharms Posts: 230, Reputation: 30
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    #9

    Aug 9, 2009, 01:49 AM

    But why is she getting defensive and upset when the child is asked about it. Is that normal behaviour for a 4 year old?

    Also the child did this a couple of years back, so at the age of 2yrs old?
    Jake2008's Avatar
    Jake2008 Posts: 6,721, Reputation: 3460
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    #10

    Aug 9, 2009, 02:57 AM
    I don't think we have enough of the story, including the influence the child's mother and her husband/boyfriend have on the child, let alone all the people she's 'dumped with' when the parents apparently get bored with her.

    I have concerns about her overall welfare.

    And no, I don't think at 2 years old, a child putting things up her vagina is normal behaviour.
    ScottGem's Avatar
    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #11

    Aug 9, 2009, 03:34 AM

    At this point, I would try to have the child examined by a competent psychologist. There is not enough to report abuse to the authorities, but there is enough to pursue further.
    logicalthinker's Avatar
    logicalthinker Posts: 58, Reputation: 1
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    #12

    Aug 9, 2009, 11:59 AM

    Thanks for all the quick responses. I was able to get a little more information on the situation last night. The child said she does it because she likes to. She said that her fathers girlfriends daughter (about the same age) showed her how to do it. The fathers girlfriend said that she has talked to her own daughters about sex, periods, and tampons, so they are very familiar with their own anatomy. My gut feeling now is that it probably is exploration but if anyone else is getting a different vibe please let me know. Thanks again everyone! And as far as getting her to a mental health professional, that's not an option because my friend doesn't have any kind of legal custody. They have a hard time getting the mother to take the child to the doctor for an ear infection, I don't imagine they would be able to convince her to do this :(
    N0help4u's Avatar
    N0help4u Posts: 19,823, Reputation: 2035
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    #13

    Aug 9, 2009, 12:06 PM

    I think that explains it. I knew some girls that were 4 and their mothers told them the same thing and that was basically what the kids ended up doing on their own and with each other.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #14

    Aug 9, 2009, 12:10 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by logicalthinker View Post
    Thanks for all the quick responses. I was able to get a little more information on the situation last night. The child said she does it because she likes to.
    Hello again, l:

    Although some of us don't like to think it, we're SEXUAL beings and we're BORN that way. Infants are fully capable of sexual arousal. Boys experience erections IN the womb. I can remember nocturnal emissions before I had any substance to emit and before I had words to even describe it.

    For a 4 year old to be exploring her body, and to be discussing it with her friend is, as I said above, perfectly normal...

    I don't know if you remember the McMartin child abuse case in California. It started with ONE mother taking her daughter to a supposed expert when she suspected abuse. The expert WRONGLY determined there was abuse. There were arrests, trials, prison sentences and lives ruined... Yes, it was determined later that the so called expert WASN'T and the cops had NO clue how to deal with it... So, they arrested everybody, and convicted a lot of people in the community.. Everyone of whom were perfectly innocent...

    excon
    logicalthinker's Avatar
    logicalthinker Posts: 58, Reputation: 1
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    #15

    Aug 9, 2009, 12:26 PM

    Excon thanks. That's exactly why I came to this site instead of just telling my friend she should call cps or whatnot. I know that we're all sexual beings, and that there are ways for children to explore this appropriately. UnfortunatelyI'm also aware that there are a lot of sick people that prey on children with that exact excuse "children are sexual beings too" Thank you again for helping to focus on what was happening, versus trying to imagine all the sick twisted reason why it COULD be happening :)
    N0help4u's Avatar
    N0help4u Posts: 19,823, Reputation: 2035
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    #16

    Aug 9, 2009, 12:32 PM

    CPS is the worst thing you can do unless it is a sure thing the kids need removed from the home/adult.
    They can often make things worse than better
    0rphan's Avatar
    0rphan Posts: 1,282, Reputation: 240
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    #17

    Aug 9, 2009, 02:55 PM

    I'm not sure about any of this... yes I agree kids explore and feel pleasure at a very young age, but 2 and 4 years old to me inserting things in themselves I've never come across, even with my own children.

    There have been to many incidences over here.. UK.. where these things have been ignore, put down to kids playing etc...
    Only to find out later that the child has been abuse for several years and then in some cases found dead.

    Any suggestion or hint of what may be sexual interference, I would immediately report to the NSPCC of which I am a member, I wouldn't give it a second thought.

    Yes there is a huge chance that it is all perfectly innocent, but there is also a fair chance that it might not be.

    The professionals have the kids in just to play and through play many things are displayed.There are no difficult situations, no interigation, the child concerned will have no idea what the play time really means.

    Imagine if this does not get reported and ( I hope and pray to god it is nothing) this is a case for abuse, which continues for many years to come, the child will be damaged for life.

    I personally would not want to take the chance no matter how small it may be.
    N0help4u's Avatar
    N0help4u Posts: 19,823, Reputation: 2035
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    #18

    Aug 9, 2009, 02:59 PM

    I would try to find out as much as possible asap before turning it over to any CPS or counsellors. Once they are involved it can become messy as Excon pointed out and that was just one of many examples of messy.
    asking's Avatar
    asking Posts: 2,673, Reputation: 660
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    #19

    Aug 9, 2009, 03:04 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by N0help4u View Post
    I would try to find out as much as possible asap before turning it over to any CPS or counsellors. Once they are involved it can become messy as excon pointed out and that was just one of many examples of messy.
    Had to spread the greenies, but I absolutely agree with NOhelp4u. Don't involve CPS until you are sure something serious is going on. Exploring at 3 or 4 is totally normal. There has to be more to go on than that before taking any sort of action.
    Jake2008's Avatar
    Jake2008 Posts: 6,721, Reputation: 3460
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    #20

    Aug 9, 2009, 03:34 PM
    I agree. There are horror stories with child protection workers, you must be sure you need to take that step.

    One way to do that is to contact people that have also cared for this child. Ask them if they have noticed any unusual behaviour (even the six suggestions I put in another reply to you). Find out more about her from other people's experiences.

    What is going to happen to this kid when the parents keep dumping her. To go from place to place and never establish a solid relationship with an adult in a secure permanent home is going to cause big problems too. What about kindergarten in a few years.

    Maybe there are more problems going on here that need addressed sooner rather than later.

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