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artlady · Aug 8, 2009, 06:56 PM

Gods knows when you hurt and I don't believe for a minute you are sent to hell for not being able to live on earth.When life is too much.
I don't believe it! All Gods love to all of you who ever wanted to take the easy way out! Don't do it it... PRAY! :)
The Lord is your Shepard!

arcura · Aug 8, 2009, 09:47 PM

artlady,
For your friend...
I believe that a person is very much mentally disterbed who commits suicide.
For whatever reason her son did that I'm sure that it did not effect his love for her.
And yes I think he is more a peace now than just before he took his life.
He was not at peace in any way at that time.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Karamel · Aug 8, 2009, 10:35 PM

I don't believe it necessarily separates you from God, but it certainly doesn't please him. Imagine this: There was an entire group of people that were going to die and you wanted to save them but the only way to do it would be to have your son killed. Would you do it? Most people wouldn't. But God did. He gave his only-begotten son as a ransom for all sinful humans on Earth. What an extremely humbling thing to do! So imagine if you saved all those people and then they killed themselves. Would you not be upset or angry? I mean you gave up your SON to save these people. I would feel very disrespected.
That's what suicide is. It is no respect for God or the sacrifice he made for us. Yes, living on this Earth is no fun task and Satan does NOT make it very easy on us. But as long as we pray for help, assurance and guidance from Jehovah (God) he will be there to help us. As the scriptures bring out " And Jehovah is the one marching before you. He himself will continue with you. He will never desert you nor leave you entirely. Do not be afraid or terrified" (Deut. 31:8)

So, suicide will not separate you from God but it is very disrespectul to God and everything he has done for us.

With that sad, I really am sorry about your friend. It actually doesn't surprise me that your friend was pushed to that level. This world is a scary place. Sometimes I feel like doing it. But I just pray to God and ask for help. He is the only one that knows how to comfort me in times like those. Keep your spirits up and never forget the power of prayer! :)

arcura · Aug 8, 2009, 11:08 PM

Karamel,
Thanks for your interesting point of view on this.
But I do believe that a person is our of his/her mind when they commit suicide.
Therefore God and any other thing that is good is also out of their minds.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Karamel · Aug 8, 2009, 11:41 PM

Yes, Arcura I agree. They can't be completely sane. . But you don't just wake up crazy one day! There had to have been actions and thoughts that led up to it. Some people don't handle things as well as others and until we are perfect, nothing is going to change that. That's just life for now, unfortunately :/

arcura · Aug 9, 2009, 07:35 PM

Karamel,
True!!
Fred

artlady · Aug 11, 2009, 10:49 PM

I wonder how many people say *God forgive me * before they eat the gun?

arcura · Aug 11, 2009, 11:14 PM

artlady,
I'd wager not many, if any.
I think that people who commit suicide dio not think of God at that time.
Some may, but I doubt it would be many.
Fred

artlady · Aug 11, 2009, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

artlady,
I'd wager not many, if any.
I think that people who commit suicide dio not think of God at that time.
Some may, but I doubt it would be many.
Fred

I did.

this8384 · Aug 12, 2009, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by artlady

I did.

That was my exact point. Some people are remorseful - others are not.

We cannot say whether someone is going to Heaven or to Hell; only God has that answer.

Flesh · Aug 12, 2009, 06:42 PM

I am a Christian and I think about killing myself, and I am going to get in depth here, so get ready. Also I am 24.

For one I do believe that my suicidal thoughts, that I have from time to time are caused by the residual effects of my old life, where I was so hopeless and unfortunetly we create mental habits.

So when I get stressed or I feel anxiety I can usually go to God speak to him and understand that this is a positive situation because it gives me a chance to become stronger, mentaly and it is a test of my faith, will I rely on God, will I give in to the temptation, the only way to get better at something is to succeed where you once failed, to literally face your demons, I could not personally do this without God, some may call this weak, but when I am weak in myself I become stronger in God and our relationship deepins as does my faith for he truly has never abandoned me.

Now lets actually go to this week, something really negative happened to me, I lost my job that I had for 2 years and I loved everyone there it was my place, and my boss was my friend but he fired me, I was sad, and that was Monday, but I just went to God and said what do I do with this situation you have given me, so I decided I would write my boss a letter telling him that while I do not understand his reasoning, but I am not angry at him, and I forgive him for any pain this has caused me and hope that we can still have a civil relationship, now that was Monday, Tuesday I was good... today and its odd I read this post, but the suicidal thoughts started to come, this is how they go, usually It starts with me imagining how I will die, gunshot, hanging, stabbing, what I would do to myself would I put a note on me, would I stab a note through my body, where would I do it, would it be in front of the people that hurt me, would I be alone somewhere I pretty much fantasize death and the emotions are something like extreme sadness mixed with anger, cause I do not want to die, I just want to die, and now you get the insanity that is suicidal thoughts, they are usually accompinied by thoughts of past relationships and about how hurt they made me, about how I feel like I can never be whole, that my life will never be manageble and that no one is ever going to love me, because I'm cursed and it just hurts a little more, but there is a pleasure as well, something feeds and enjoys these thoughts this fantasy. I have not had suicidal thoughts like I did today in a long time.. well long for me like 5-6 months... and I was really thinking about it, wondering if God would forgive me, and at the same time knowing he would, but also knowing that it was not right. I would like to say that I think most people before they kill themselves probably think about God, whether they are Christian or not, but not in the sense you are thinking, when I think of God during these times, I am not asking for help, or saving I am simply like hey I'm out this life is to cold for me, too much, and your not even enough and I know you are but I just can not take this insanity for another day, I can not take these broken memories for another second they make my life misrable and my only other option for instant relief is death, I just want to be with you, to be free of this. I will tell you right now, suicide is not a theological question, it is not talked about in the Bible at all or not very much. As to the murder thing, there are two hebrew words for killing, one means to murder aka to kill a man for an envious reason or a self focused reason and one is to kill to defend or during fighting. Murder in the first sense is the one that Moses wrote on the 10 commandments, so know that murder to God is not just killing something. Its where your heart is at, and where your soul is at, if you are saved by calavary than you are saved, he took your place end of story as long as you believe that and have faith in that than you are saved, sinning while you die or not. Suicide is a sin I am sure of that, but Jesus came to take our sin away, and I am sure out of his mercy if a believer ended there own life it would be forgiven, he does not see like we see nor does he judge like we judge, I know I am not wrong here, Jesus has taken my spot, no matter what I do, and that does not give me free reign to sin, in fact I hate sin, but it does not mean that I do not sin, we are cursed with it until these bodies die.

sorry about all the spelling errors I was typing fast and am not going to spell check :)

paraclete · Aug 12, 2009, 07:14 PM

Suicide is the ultimate act of faithlessness and placing yourself above God. Having said that, we cannot know whether a person who suicides is actually insane and unable to control their actions. So I suggest God might view each case on its merits, but as a general injuction suicide is no different to murder and we know God doesn't sanction that but will forgive a repentant sinner. What I find difficult is to see how a willful act so far away from God's purposes is likely to produce repentance

Flesh · Aug 12, 2009, 07:52 PM

paracelete that is pure unabashed judgement, killing yourself is not murder. Tell me if when you are on your deathbed your last words are a lie, are you forgiven? Jesus took my place end of story, no matter what I do, I do not have to ask forgivness for every sin I commit what yoke is that? I am forgiven by my faith in the Son alone, the LAW is Dead by the flesh of the Son.

N0help4u · Aug 12, 2009, 07:55 PM

If you read what paraclete said in relation to the context you will see that he said IN GENERAL and with exceptions... so where's the judging?

Flesh · Aug 12, 2009, 08:07 PM

He is acting as he was God that is what I mean by judging.. he is stating that in certain situations or under pending circumstances sin will be forgiven or not, it does not state this once in the Bible, its says

Colossians 2:13-15 (NIV)

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers of authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, truimphing over them by the cross.

Acting as God is passing judgement, speaking as though your words hold as much ground as Gods is passing judgement, I do not mean in the worldy way. I also do not care if you put I prepose or any other such statement your heart is easly seen in your post itself.

N0help4u · Aug 12, 2009, 08:09 PM

So do you say that any Christian that kills themselves goes to heaven?

Flesh · Aug 12, 2009, 08:21 PM

I am saying that any man that has faith in the son is saved by that alone and nothing else, not his deeds good or bad, even in death, FAITH ALONE SAVES, If I were to end my life today, I would go to my father, he does not see like we see, in his eyes my sinful nature and who I was died with Jesus, I was on the cross with him, when I come to the Father because of my Faith alone I am saved. It is a large mystery and I do not even begin to say I understand it all, I just know that to God, Faith, aka belief in something is the most important thing ever.

I will use a worldy example on just how important belief is to us as humans and its effects, and hopefully that can give you some slight understanding of what it must mean to God.

Almost every single highly successful person states that belief in there idea, and belief in themselves and the belief of others in them brought them to where they are at.

Dan Doogan of the Metal band Disturbed stated in Guitar World (paraphrased) "I was a construction worker and I made a decent living, but I just could not get this idea of playing in a band out of me, I just had this belief in myself."

Tiger Woods stated if it was not for the belief of my father in me I would not have gotten to where I was.

Its really simple for us humans if you have belief in something it does something sublime and yet at the same time very reconizable, how much must it mean to God than, he states in the Bible that by Faith (belief) alone you shall be saved... it must mean something massive to him and it must do something that we as we are not just can not grasp the full concept, we just have the crumbs of the idea.

paraclete · Aug 12, 2009, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by Flesh

paracelete that is pure unabashed judgement, killing yourself is not murder. Tell me if when you are on your deathbed your last words are a lie, are you forgiven? Jesus took my place end of story, no matter what I do, I do not have to ask forgivness for every sin I commit what yoke is that? I am forgiven by my faith in the Son alone, the LAW is Dead by the flesh of the Son.

There are many issues here such as once saved always saved, repentance, whether the person is really saved or just has knowledge of Jesus, insanity, who can know? This is why I think God might judge each case on its merits but why take the chance, if God wants you dead for mercy reasons or any other reason, he can call you otherwise wait around and get a grip.

This is no different to any other situation, salvation is not a license to sin. Why would my last words be alie. I am a Christian so my last words will be goodbye see you on the other side

classyT · Aug 13, 2009, 05:23 AM

As far as I am concerned and from everything I can gather from the word of God... there is NO sin that isn't covered under the blood of Jesus. SO... if someone is REALLY a christian and would commit this devastating act, MOST definitely they would be with the Lord Jesus.

Jesus Christ... HIS son.. cleanses us from all sin. Last time I check ALL means ALL!

This answer is based on the Bible.. not what I think or feel.

Flesh · Aug 13, 2009, 10:08 AM

Classy T is right, I am not arguing with you, I am stating what the Bible says multiple times, that we shall be saved by faith alone, humans always want to add human ideas to things, there are not "many isssues" the Bible gives it to you straight its from God, its absolute truth, there are not variations (that is the devils playground) there are not sub-sections there is no fine print, there are parables, if when I die I have faith in Jesus aka BELIEF, that I believe that he existed, hence God exist, that I believe with my heart that he died on Calavary and that when this happened and I accepted that, I was given at that exact moment the Holy Spirit, the great counsler, the thing that makes me able to speak with God, and to hear him within my heart, within my consouiness, than I am saved by that faith alone, which must mean a lot to God considering how many times he stresses belief in the Son is the only way to gain forgivness.
If you are having trouble understanding we are saved by faith alone, if you think I have to do something to gain it, or think in a certain way(other than belief in God, and Calavary) to gain it I suggest this book, "50 reasons Christ came to die" by John Piper, which heavly uses text from the Bible to support itself, which to me is the only way to avoid opinions, I dislike very much when a man assumes to be God and starts adding laws on his own bias opinion. Judas did commit suicide but he also did not have faith that is one of the only NT references to suicide that I can think of, and it does not matter if you shoot yourself or die from a car wreck without the son... and we are not to judge cause we do not know who has it and who does not.. it may appear to us as humans so and so does not but in fact does, we do not know the conversations people have had with God, and as far as I am concerned because of the authority in the Bible, if a killer had faith that Jesus died for him and began to repent and maybe he kills again while repenting, maybe he just can not stop killing but he knows it wrong and is trying to be with God (this is an extreme but by the word of the Bible is none-the-less true) than he is saved by that faith alone, if you can not swallow that, its good you should not be able too, its God he is above us, he knows this life is really nothing, worldly people can not even imagine that, they can not get around the fact that this life is NOTHING and the only important role it is to play now (remeber the world was Gods good work but it was ruined by sin) is for the salvation of his creations so he can save as many as possible, this of course is just one of the mysteries God does not give to us as to why, I personally do not know why sin is so grievous to God that he must eradicate it in the end and anyone who has it within him, you must see Sin for what it really is, its not an act, if it was it could be reversed by them, it's a curse a disiese, its something we as men can not fully understand, we only get the vague idea and know after being saved that it was in fact doing something to us, a worldy man will only know things as "good" or "bad" for him, I do not do this because it causes this, or I do this because X reason... we start to make up our own rules, our own truths, but God cleary states there is an absolute truth an absolute way to live, and you know what, none of us can do it... not one of us, we can not be what God had intended us to be until these bodies which are cursed with Sin are destroyed and only our Spirits remain, now imagine yourself as a spirit an energy ball or something, this is where the blood of Jesus is, on our souls it shows to God we have made a sacrifice (again another mystery, why is sacrifice so important to him, we as humans again only get the crumbs, we know self sacrifice to be a comendable act, we see it even in the world as to be so, again how much more it must mean to God how important it must be, he may reveal it one day to us) so Jesus' sacrifice is on us and God says this soul is pure by my standards now to your new body, not tainted by this curse, the enemy is dead no longer will sin destroy my creations. (yet another mystery not revealed to us, why was the enemy given riegn here, why was he allowed to spread his disiese, if we look at this in a finite way we will always just be pissed cause it seems our whole lives have been ruined, but you must see like God does, 80 years is NOTHING, I look forward to an ETERNAL life with God, 80 to the 1000000th power beyond, and I get to be in a body again, I get to live in this life again, but without the negative effects of Sin, I get to hold someone, I get to hang out with people... I get to talk to God.. in person, I get to love without fear, forever and all I have to do is sacrifice 80 years, to not live in this world as I would like to but as God would have me, to be obidient even to the point of death... whether that be physical or any other type of death this world threatens me with.