[450donn]

I was meeting with my small group the other night and the discussion turned to grace or the law. My argument is found in MT 5:17-19 where Jesus is speaking and says that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.
Another person cited Galations3:11 and Ga3:23-25 which seems to indicate that the we are no longer bound under the Law.
What say you?

[N0help4u]

We are no longer bound by the law other than the 'law' of love one another as I have loved you which the 10 commandments covers.

There is the law of do not eat pork, do not wear mixed fabric-(ex: 60% cotton 40% rayon-), do not travel more than x miles on the Sabbath, etc...

[rnrg]

I was meeting with my small group the other night and the discussion turned to grace or the law. My argument is found in MT 5:17-19 where Jesus is speaking and says that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.
Another person cited Galations3:11 and Ga3:23-25 which seems to indicate that the we are no longer bound under the Law.
What say you?

From what I understand we, as Gentiles, should have the Law written on our hearts. The law is what made man guilty of sin by causing him to see "sin" according to God's measurement of a "right standing" with Him. Also, we can not do away with the Law or the Old Testament's teachings since there are things that must first be fulfilled. (Luke 24:44 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.")

Jesus would often refer to the Old Testament when asked questions about what he thought. When He was asked by someone what they must do to inherit eternal life, Jesus replied by asking the man, what does the Law of Moses say.

Also, when He was asked what the greatest commandment was, He once again quoted scripture from the Old Testament Law.

The Law forced man to recognize "sin" . Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.(20) Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. (21) But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. Romans 3:27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. (28)
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Here Paul is writing this message after Jesus had already returned to Heaven. We are not to do away with the Law but keep it.
Romans 3:31 - Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Also, I think this verse sums it up. (John 1:17 - For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.)

The Law condemns us as sinners, Christ was and is the "answer" to our sin problem. They go hand-n-hand. Hope this was not confusing! Rita

[jakester]

I was meeting with my small group the other night and the discussion turned to grace or the law. My argument is found in MT 5:17-19 where Jesus is speaking and says that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.
Another person cited Galations3:11 and Ga3:23-25 which seems to indicate that the we are no longer bound under the Law.
What say you?

Donn -

This is clearly an interest of yours because I have heard you mention this before. With that in mind, I am personally eager to understand this statement of Christ better. I hope to be able to answer this in greater detail over the next few days. Allow me to pose a few questions to stir the question up a little more.

First off, how I would try to answer this question is by observing the context in which Jesus made this statement. Who was his audience? Why did he make this statement? Were people thinking that his teaching was so radical that it appeared he was trying to destroy the Old Testament?

Secondly, what did Jesus mean when he said that he came to fulfill the law and not to abolish it? We are quick to see that he didn't abolish it but what is meant by fulfill it?

Thirdly, donn, the apparent issue before you if you have concluded that the law is still in effect, is that all of the law is in effect. That means if your neighbor blasphemes God you are to stone him. If you were to catch someone working on the Sabbath, you are to stone him. Some people prefer to pick which laws are observable now but the law was given as one entire body, to be observed by the nation of Israel in its entirety... not just the laws concerning foods and clothing, but the moral laws like stoning people guilty of breaking the laws.

I'm sympathetic to your question so don't think that I am trying to make you feel bad about posting it. I personally do not think that the law is in effect for Gentiles at all. I do think that the law is in effect for the Jews but I would want to clarify why I think that it is and in what sense it is.

But why don't you provide some additional comments relating to what I have posted here if you don't mind. I will continue to research this and come back.

Thanks, donn.

[450donn]

Guess I did not make myself clear in my original post. I am strictly talking about the law of Moses or the ten commandments All other laws seem to me to have been made by man to subdue man. But then again I could be wrong. I am still a babe in the Lord. A mere mortal who sins every day. But under grace I have forgiveness for my sins.

[N0help4u]

The Bible says Moses laws is now summed up by Love one another and put God first.
If you look at each one of the 10 commandments it is clear that if you love one another and put God first there is no way you can break any one of them

Gal. is talking about the do's and don'ts laws that we have mentioned. I do believe God made those laws as well because people back then didn't have the knowledge of food poisoning and how diseases are spread. God also gave them as a significance of the importance of purity like not mixing fabrics.

[arcura]

What say I?
As I understand the passage that follows we ARE to obey the Law of the 10 Commandments and it is by the grace of God that we are forgiven when we sin and fail in we are repentant and ask for forgiveness.
Matthew 5: 17. "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.
18. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.
19. "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20. "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.
<><><>
It IS the whole passage that needs to be understood not just the first part of it.
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

[jakester]

Guess I did not make myself clear in my original post. I am strictly talking about the law of Moses or the ten commandments All other laws seem to me to have been made by man to subdue man. But then again i could be wrong. I am still a babe in the Lord. A mere mortal who sins every day. But under grace I have forgiveness for my sins.

Hey again, Donn. I'm a little unclear about your clarification. To avoid confusion, let's assume we are only talking about the Law of Moses (which included the 10 commandments). The Law of Moses is a very extensive series of laws that prescribe how Israel was to live: their personal lives in relationship to one another, their religious life as it related to the temple, etc. The entire body of laws is better known as the Law of Moses. Included in that law are prescribed ways to sacrifice, laws about morality and what to do when someone has broken them, etc.

Donn, when Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it, he meant the Law of Moses. As I asked in my earlier post, what did Jesus mean by fulfill? My take is that the law had built into it a certain amount of obsolescence. For example, the sacrifices and the priestly system are described in Hebrews as being the shadow of the things to come. But now that the embodiment of this sacrificial and priestly system has been fulfilled in Christ (since he is both the sacrifice for sin and the great high priest), there is no longer a need to go on sacrificing.

As I look at the context of Matthew 5, a few things come to mind as I consider what Jesus said. He has just finished speaking of the Beatitudes. He then moves to talking about being Salt and Light. When he finishes talking about not abolishing the law but fulfilling it, he goes on to say "For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." What I think Jesus is doing is in this section is making a point that the Pharisees have had a very minimal view of the Old Testament law. Their practice of observing the commandments amounted to what Jesus calls a "relaxing of the commandments." They made it "easy" to be a religious person because their vision of righteousness was attainable. But the Commandments of God—rightly understood—forced people to see that real goodness and righteousness was so much more difficult to practice because we are morally broken people. That is why Jesus contrasts the teachings of the Pharisees with true righteousness, because they had really confused the real righteousness of God with their own teaching. And if you were to observe their teaching, you would be "righteous." But Jesus says to the crowd that if their righteousness did not surpass that of the Pharisees, they will never enter the kingdom of God. The righteousness Jesus was talking about was an authentic righteousness; one that truly feared God and kept his law out of a respect and admiration for God—and kept the law not to obtain a righteousness of his own but out of his commitment to follow the Lord.

I still haven't even addressed what abolish meant but this is just some of my thoughts so far.

[sndbay]

. I personally do not think that the law is in effect for Gentiles at all. I do think that the law is in effect for the Jews but I would want to clarify why I think that it is and in what sense it is.
.

Jakester,

This is am important issue. I trust the Gentiles who are Ham's lineage, and his son Canaan, were the nations of Egypt that had difference ordinances that God was aware of according to (Lev 18:3)But I also trust what God said about making the Gentile clean and we are not to call them unclean. It was such an important fact about "man" in Acts 10:28..and not about food being clean.

The meaning and facts concerning what are ordinances, statutes, law, and the commandments should be defined. I trust, if everyone were taught the individual meaning, they might look at what is meant in scripture pertaining to law in a sightly different way.

The ordinances of the altar were changed by the blood of Christ.( refer: Eze 43:18) (refer: Col 2:14 )

If the meaning was established and understood, I trust what Hebrews 9:9-10 is saying about what was would be better recognized as a major difference to what was and is today refer: 9what was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Hebrews 9:11-12 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

And my belief in law, is that the LAW of Faith is what we are to accept and boast in joy of heart. (Roman 3:27)(Romans 3:28)What was the law of sin (Lev 7:37) brings us to Christ... But if someone wants to say they are a sinner and not justified in Christ then they are a transgresseth, who is under the law of sin, and not in Christ. (1 John 3:4)

Gal3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The only time you have left the schoolmaster of the law, is when you are begotten again in Christ Begotten in HIS image of righteousness which was the likeness of Holy Spirit dwells in us.

No longer begotten of man... It is my understanding that Christ came so that we can follow HIM and be begotten again, being born again of the spirit ](Gal 4:33), unto a new man (Col 3:10). The newness of life we are dead in Christ by baptism, thus buried and able to raise has HE did in the glory of the Father (Romans 6:4)

[sndbay]

I was meeting with my small group the other night and the discussion turned to grace or the law. My argument is found in MT 5:17-19 where Jesus is speaking and says that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.

Absolutely true Jesus did fulfil the law. Just as He and John fulfil all righteousness in baptism.
According to what is written it is now our turn to fulfil not lust of the flesh but put on Christ Jesus in righteousness. (Gal5:7)

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Another person cited Galations3:11 and Ga3:23-25 which seems to indicate that the we are no longer bound under the Law.

Those no longer under the law of sin "if" they are walking in the spirit of Christ. (Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. )

That does not mean the law of sin is no longer a schoolmaster to others, because they have the law to bring them unto Christ.

What say you?

~in Christ we have the Law of Faith as children of God

Worthyness of Christ to set us free from sin, and wash us clean of sin. (do you believe or hold stedfast to "Faith in Christ"

Eph 4:4-7 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

[arcura]

THIS has turned into a very interesting discussion with questions and interesting answers.
I'm following it much paritcularly in wonder about what others think about the sacraments established by Jesus Christ.
Sacrament = something set aside for a specific holy purpose.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

I was meeting with my small group the other night and the discussion turned to grace or the law. My argument is found in MT 5:17-19 where Jesus is speaking and says that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.
Another person cited Galations3:11 and Ga3:23-25 which seems to indicate that the we are no longer bound under the Law.
What say you?

Many hold that as each Covenant is proclaimed by God, the older Covenant ended; its sometimes referred to as dispensationalism. To list a few, there is an Edenic, Antediluvian, Civil Government, and Patriarchal promises or covenants in Genesis. The most recognized is the Mosaic Law which leads us to the New Covenant. Some dispensationalist catalog as many as 8 dispensations.

But, Christ proclaims he didn't come to destroy the law or the law givers (Cf. Matthew 5: 17-19). How is this explained? Pope Pius XII suggested “ by the death of our Redeemer, the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished; then the Law of Christ together with its mysteries, enactments, institutions, and sacred rites was ratified for the whole world in the blood of Jesus Christ." (Mystici Corporis Christi, Pope Pius XII, 29) The Pope says that 'the law' is replaced by the New Testament.


His Holiness Benedict XVI takes up this very issue in his book, “Jesus of Nazareth.” He looks closer at what Pope Pius XII wrote, more particularly what wasn't said. What's not addressed here is the Old Covenant is abolished or replaced; Pope Pius XII refers only to the “Old Law.”

When giving the sermon on mount, Christ interjected a one letter word that immediately raised the eyebrows of the Jews. He used the word I in conjunction with the Law and the Prophets. “Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled. He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt 5:17-19) But, the last I checked neither heaven nor earth has passed. That's because Christ didn't have any intention of terminating the Old Covenant nor the Law (at least not in the way dispensationalist think of it). To hold otherwise would throw the very next verse into a shambles by telling the Pharisees that they will never see the “Kingdom of Heaven.”

Any Rabbi worth his salt would never interject the word “I” in the same breath with the Law. To do so was sacrilege. Christ talked with “authority” causing alarm. (Cf. Matt 7:28, Mark 1:22, Luke 4:3.2) “The “I” in his message, which gives everything a new direction… consist[ing] of following Jesus.” (Pope Benedict XVI, Jesus of Nazareth, pp.107-114). In every discourse with the Pharisees regarding the law we stand before the “I” of Jesus.

Pope Benedict teaches that the Law of Moses is made of two basic codes: casuistic law and apodictic law. Casuistic law is built on legal precedent and includes such things as freeing slaves, injuries inflicted on man or beasts, restitution for theft etc. Those codes that were casuistic were subject to criticism on ethical grounds and were intended to change during as rules typically change in historical settings. On the other hand, the apodictic codes found in the Law of Moses are Divine and as such are immutable. Apodictic law should be the rule by which casuistic laws are judged.


It's here that Pope Benedict makes the salient point: Moses' Law and the fundamental permanency of the Law are connected. “The fundamental norm in the Torah, on which everything depends, is insistence upon faith in the one God (YHWH): He alone may be worshiped. But now, as the Prophets develop the Torah, responsibility for the poor, widows, and orphans gradually ascends to the same level as the exclusive worship of the one God. It fuses with the image of God, defining it very specifically. The social commandments are theological commandments, and the theological commandments have a social character – Love of God and love of neighbor are inseparable, and love of neighbor, understood in this context as recognition of God's immediate presence in the poor and weak, receives a very practical definition here. “All of this is essential if we are to understand the Sermon on the Mount correctly. Within the Torah itself, and subsequently in the dialogue between the Law and the Prophets, we already see the contrast between changeable casuistic law, which shapes the social structure of the given time, and the practical norms constantly have to be measured, developed, and corrected. “ (Ibid, pp.125-126)


Pope Benedict continues saying that there is no precedence in Christ's abolishment of the caustic code, but as the Messiah he adds to the Torah providing “social orderings with their fundamental criteria” of the New Testament. The radical movement that Christ made was to remove that element of the law which was casuistic and relegate it to the realm of right reasoning. (Ibid, pp.125-126)


Thus we don't find a radical on the Mount or a liberal rationalist on the Mount, rather we find an interpreter of the Torah perfecting the Law; “I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill” So, it was the “I” in Christ that perfected the Law replacing it with the Lamb of God and the New Testament. So, there is no discontinuity in Divine Covenants, no dispensation, no stop and start; but rather the law is no longer written in a book, but in the heart. The tenets are still there, but are obeyed as a good wife obeys her husband, from the heart.


JoeT

[sndbay]

So, there is no discontinuity in Divine Covenants, no dispensation, no stop and start;but rather the law is no longer written in a book, but in the heart. The tenets are still there, but are obeyed as a good wife obeys her husband, from the heart.
JoeT

Refer: Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


If one takes what is written in scripture, and applies the knowledge that is given by the Word that was made flesh, and we then hear the Word of God/hearing Christ, then their heart has followed Christ, and they have not followed man known in himself.

Hear the Word of God = Christ

Romans 3:19-20 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin

Romans 3:23-24 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

We are the lost sheep that Christ came to save and justify. When we believe in HIM (One Lord) and follow HIS calling of salvation (One Faith) to do as the Holy Spirit guides us to do (One Baptism). We are then begotten again, not of man but as a child of God in Christ Jesus (1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead)

So boast in the joy to be righteous..and being justified not by law, or by works of man, but boasted in faith of Christ (the law of faith) as in the glory of God the Father who sent HIS begotten Son the Grace of God.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

[JoeT777]

Refer: Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Yes we establish the law, the same law, in the heart.

It's the distinction between the Covenant and the law contained within the covenant. God's Covenant is immutable; the law on the other hand is mutable. That's why each of your citations refers to THE LAW not to the Covenant itself.

'Covenant' can be construed as laws but normally its used to refer to a body of laws. Lets take an example like subdivision covenants. Such covenants form a relationship between the developer who established the covenants and the homeowner who buys a lot in the subdivision. Furthermore, these same subdivision covenants also forms reciprocatory relation among the neighbors in a cooperative relationship for living and prospering in the subdivision. A similar relationship is formed between God and man in the Covenants of Moses do they not? Did Christ come to destroy these, or as He said fulfill them?

The Old Testament Covenants holds this same nuance in meaning. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, in his book “Many religions, one covenant” holds that “The relationship is therefore completely asymmetrical, because God, for the creature, is and remains the “wholly Other”. The covenant is not a two-sided contract but a gift, a creative act of God's Love.” God's act of love adds yet another dimension to 'covenant'. God's covenant becomes more than law, more than reciprocity, more than a spiritual love for “here God, the King, receives nothing from man; but in giving him law, he gives him the path of life.” This Holly ordinance becomes far more than direction, it brings a bridal love and a patristic relationship. So the Covenant of the Old Testament isn't 'simply' a set of laws it's a loving living, real live relationship (a.k.a. Covenant) between the immutable God and a mutable man.

Throughout the New and Old Testaments we find that the 'Law' while somewhat vague most always refers to those ordinances given by Moses and the Prophets. Any long married couple knows that that early in the relationship there are rules by which each spouse must relate to the other. (I'd like to stop and tell “knot raising” stories here, but Mrs. T is looking!). It goes something like, “don't mess with my side of the closet, I don't care if it smells like something is dead in there”; or “stay out of my Kitchen or you'll be embossed with this 'no. 10' printed on the backside of my frying pan!” I think you get the gist. Years down the road these rules are no longer written or even verbalized, they can be communicated with 'THE LOOK'. I don't think I need to explain 'THE LOOK.' Years later still, no rules are necessary, none whatsoever, you 'know' what your spouse wants, needs, or desires. And it's at this stage, you start finishing each other sentences, even in the privacy of the home – essentially becoming ONE. The point being that the rules, laws or ordinances found in marriage are same types as those found in the Covenants. Some are Divine, some are prophetic and some are mere preferences all aimed at the good of society.

When the laws are no longer applicable, or needed, and they continue to be enforced they become burdensome, oppressive, and are no longer focused toward the good of the community. It's these laws Christ perfected, they still exist, and they simply don't need to be enumerated for the good of the community. And as Matthew 5 tells us Christ came to perfect the LAW fulfilling every jot.


JoeT

[sndbay]

Yes we establish the law, the same law, in the heart.

When the laws are no longer applicable, or needed, and they continue to be enforced they become burdensome, oppressive, and are no longer focused toward the good of the community.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Gal 3:24-25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

It’s these laws Christ perfected, they still exist, and they simply don’t need to be enumerated for the good of the community. And as Matthew 5 tells us Christ came to perfect the LAW fulfilling every jot.
JoeT

Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

The law has always been perfect according to scripture, yet the law made no human perfect. Christ came to justify us where the law could not. In the law of Faith, we can rejoice!

Hebrew 10:9-10 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

[inthebox]

I was meeting with my small group the other night and the discussion turned to grace or the law. My argument is found in MT 5:17-19 where Jesus is speaking and says that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.
Another person cited Galations3:11 and Ga3:23-25 which seems to indicate that the we are no longer bound under the Law.
What say you?

Babe in the woods here too :)

I think of it like this: there is the law, and if the law is broken, then there is justice.

We know the law[s], and we know we break them [ we are sinners ], and our punishment as sinnners is Hell, an eternity away from God.

God knows this, and He knows that none can follow the law 100% of the time, and therefore we all are to be punished, but Jesus Christ "fulfilled" the demands of the law [ righteousness with God ] by dying and rising for our sins.

Galatians reminds us of this. We are not bound by the law that damns us, because we rely on the Grace of God.

Before we come to God we try to be "good" and follow the law to the "t." But none is THAT righteous :eek:

After God's grace, I follow the law because I want to please God, to respect God, it helps me love others. :)





G&P

[JoeT777]

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Which is precisely my point, why then would Christ continue to teach the Law if in fact he was the end of the Mosaic Law.

Gal 3:24-25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Again you make my point. The Law is taught by the masters. A good student takes it to heart. The Mosaic Law after it was perfected by Christ, now resides in the heart of the faithful.

Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

You’re reading my mind:

For the law brought nothing to perfection: but a bringing in of a better hope, by which we draw nigh to God. And inasmuch as it is not without an oath (for the others indeed were made priests without an oath: But this with an oath, by him that said unto him: The Lord hath sworn and he will not repent: Thou art a priest for ever). By so much is Jesus made a surety of a better testament. And the others indeed were made many priests, because by reason of death they were not suffered to continue: (Heb 7:19-22)

You do see it don’t you; the law of the Prophets can only bring hope and hope resides in the heart - but the Law remains nonetheless. The Law of the Prophets resides in the heart, like the bride we obey out of love for God - not because there is an ordinance.

The law has always been perfect according to scripture, yet the law made no human perfect. Christ came to justify us where the law could not. In the law of Faith, we can rejoice!

Yes the law has always been perfect “according to scripture,” but not according to men. Christ came to fulfill the Law, did you not read the verse?

JoeT

[arcura]

JoeT,
Thanks much for that.
Now I understand it much better.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Akoue]

Excellent, and very helpful, posts, JoeT. I second arcura's "Thanks much for that".

[sndbay]

Yes the law has always been perfect “according to scripture,” but not according to men. Christ came to fulfill the Law, did you not read the verse?

JoeT

Joe what I acknowledge is that Christ fulfil baptism, And He fulfil the law.
Do we baptize today? YES
Do we acknowledge the law? YES
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


Both were shown by Christ to be followed and done. One difference is the law did not justify us, so the better hope was Christ because faith in HIS body and blood does justify us. What was the ordinances of the law offered both gifts and sacrifices, that were done in a remembrance of sins every year by the priest.

However the ordinances of the altar were changed by the blood of Christ. ( refer: Eze 43:18) (refer: Col 2:14 ) Christ set us free from the curse, Christ washed us clean once and for all. Our souls are placed in HIS hands as Christ is the ONE LORD of (Eph 4:5) 1 Peter 2:25 For you were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls

Christ changed the ordinances that were done because of the curse of Adam, and the conscience of evil
Hebrews 9:9-10 what was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Baptism fulfil by Christ, now is the removal of evil conscience. ONE BAPTISM of (Eph 4:5)
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.


One Faith of (Eph 4:5) Matthew 28:18-19 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Romans 3:26-27 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Unless each individual holds stedfast ~in CHRIST by ONE LORD ONE BAPTISM ONE FAITH, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all ... Then each individual remains under the schoolmaster of the law of sin..