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Clive Heath · Oct 18, 2006, 09:48 AM

Hi.

My son has a 1997/8 Honda Civic Coupe with a 1600 fuel injected engine. (UK spec). He recently had a light front end shunt and since then the engine will not run. The engine turns over but will not fire up. The garage that has done the bodywork have replaced the distributor with a new one, but to no avail. Apparently there are sparks at the plugs, but they're described as sparking 3 times only and then nothing. As far as I know the engine will not even sound as if it is trying to fire. The fuel pump is running, so it's not the fuel cut out that's at fault. We have tried to find the diagnostic plug, but it just doesn't seem to have one. We've looked on the loom near to the ECU which is in the passenger footwell area. We found a plug that we thought might be it... a brown plug taped to the back of the ECU mounting panel, but we are told that this is not it. We're at a loss as to what to do to get this car running now. The local Honda dealer are not a great deal of help. They say that they can't find the diagnostic plug, but that it should have one. Unfortunately they don't want to tell us any other places to look for it. They want to take the dashboard out at a cost of £500 to try and locate the plug. Seems a bit steep to me, especially as they can't tell us where we should look.

Can anyone help with any suggestions, apart from torching the car!! Any sensible suggestions received with thanks.

TxGreaseMonkey · Oct 18, 2006, 10:44 AM

1. When you turn the ignition switch to ON (not START), does the Check Engine Light (CEL) come on and then go off after 2 seconds?

2. During this 2 second period, do you hear the fuel pump in the gas tank run?
3. When the CEL goes out, do you hear (or feel) the main relay "click"?

I need you to answer each numbered question. Your answers tell me a lot and affects the direction we go from here.

I think you are looking in the right place for the Data Link Connector (3P) and the Service Check Connector (2P). On a UK Civic, I would expect them to be tucked just behind the dash, about 8 cm from the kickwall. The Service Check Connector might be housed in a blue rubber cover.

Clive Heath · Oct 18, 2006, 12:31 PM

Hi, and thanks for your response. I'll do my best to answer the questions but the car is in the bodyshop still trying to be fixed and they're closed at the moment so I won't be able to check my answers with the shop for around 12 to 15 hours ! Anyway, here goes my best shot.

1) As far as I know, yes the light comes on and goes off.

2) Again, as far as I'm aware, the fuel pump runs for this period.

3) A tricky one... I've never been aware of hearing any click, but then again I've never been listening for one. I've seen some posts referring to earlier Civics which suggest the main relay, but they've not been sure if the later ones have a main relay. The other posts suggest that the relay will be on the drivers side, tucked up behind the dash, in a pretty inaccessible position... would this be the same for our model year?

I can ask the bodyshop to check these three things in the morning and get back with definite answers for you.

As for the DLP and SCP, we can't find anything like those described anywhere in the vicinity of the footwell. We've been looking on the loom that comes out of the ECU, but so far, nothing. The glovebox is now out and still no sign of anything that we would expect to see. Again, I'll let the bodyshop know what you've said, and see if they can locate anything. Any idea why the Honda dealer wanted to take the dash out?

Thanks again, and I look forward to hearing from you when you get the time.

Clive

TxGreaseMonkey · Oct 18, 2006, 12:49 PM

Removing the dash is very extreme. I would try and get my hands on a Service Manual or call around to various Honda and independent shops that specialize in Hondas. In the U.S. the DLC for 1996 and later cars is easily visible, just to the left of the steering column. Don't forget to look under the hood, near the firewall, for the DLC.

It's important to hear (or feel) the main relay click, when the CEL goes out. On 1997-98 Civics, the main relay is located on the passenger side, near the kick panel. Check all under-hood and under-dash fuses with a test light or multimeter. Pay particular attention to the ACG (S) fuse in the under-dash fuse/relay box.

When the distributor was replaced, did it come with a new ICM (igniter) and coil? If not, then I would focus there. Problem likely to be with the main relay, ICM, coil, or fuse, based on your responses.

Clive Heath · Oct 18, 2006, 01:21 PM

Hi again.

I'll get the bodyshop to check the new possible locations for the DLC. They've been looking in the passenger footwell, which is obviously on the left hand side over here, but I'll get them to check near to the steering column (on the right hand side) just in case the looms are reversed on our cars.

I'll also get them to check in the engine bay near to the firewall.

I'll get the fuses checked too, but the ACG(s) fuse?? Can you explain that one ? Is it actually labelled as that ?

The shop tell me that the new distributor came with both the coil pack and igniter fitted.

TxGreaseMonkey · Oct 18, 2006, 01:42 PM

The ACG (S) fuse should be labeled on the under-dash fuse/relay box cover. It's fuse #24 on many Civics in the U.S. It controls power to the alternator, cruise control, gauges, and SRS unit (VB). If that fuse is blown, or missing, the car won't spark.

If all of that checks out, I would run a test to see if the ECM (computer) was damaged in the accident. Disconnect the MAP Sensor connector, turn ignition to ON, and check for 5 volts going between the right reference wire socket in the connector (+) and the main ECM ground on the thermostat housing. Really press the black test lead into the ground to get a good connection. If you don't get around 5 volts, then the ECM is probably damaged. The ECM is a giant "power transistor," whose job it is to supply the proper voltage to a host of sensors, under constantly varying conditions. If this sensor does not receive the proper voltage from the ECM, you will experience catastrophic ignition and fuel system failure. It's the "key" sensor on Hondas.

I hope the repair shop marked where the old distributor was positioned, so as to have the timing reasonably close to where it should be. Be sure and ask about that, because there are CYL, CKP, and TDC sensors in the distributor that could be way out of adjustment to allow the engine to start.

If you perform all of these tests, you should be able to isolate the problem.

TxGreaseMonkey · Oct 19, 2006, 08:29 AM

Clive, anything new?

Clive Heath · Oct 20, 2006, 02:06 AM

Hi again.
I've spoken to the bodyshop about your questions. They tell me that the answers to your first post questions 1,2 and 3 are all YES. Also the distributor was a complete ssembly with coil and igniter ready fitted. They think that there is NO SPARK at all now. They are still looking for the DLC and SCC but I have given them the alternative positions that you've suggested. I've printed out the whole thread and articles on the main relay failure faults and will be giving them to the shop today. Hopefully I'll have some more info for you later.

Thanks again.

Clive Heath · Oct 20, 2006, 07:58 AM

Hi again.

Some more information that I've found out as a result of going to the bodyshop today. The CEL comes on upon turning ignition on. After 2 seconds or so it goes out, but then comes on and stays on after about another 2 seconds or so. It stays on whilst the engine is cranking. The main relay does click, but some other posts that I've seen suggest that the main relay may still have a defect on the ignition circuit side. Any ideas about this, and if so , any ideas how to test the relay in order to identify or eliminate this possibility?

By the way, still no sign of any diagnostic plugs anywhere !

Thanks,

Clive

TxGreaseMonkey · Oct 20, 2006, 08:07 AM

Have all fuses been checked, particularly the under-dash ACG (S) fuse? If the Check Engine Light does not stay off, the problem is with either the ACG (S) fuse, main relay, ECM (computer), or ignition switch.

Get them to check all fuses and check for 5 volts at the MAP Sensor. This should only take a few minutes. Did you hear the fuel pump run?

Since the battery has likely been disconnected by now, all codes have been lost anyhow. We really don't need the DLC or SCC to get the engine running again.

This seems to be progressing towards either an "open" between the ECM and the MAP Sensor (connector problem) or a problem with the ECM, main relay or MAP Sensor. It's getting interesting--my guess is main relay or ECM.

TxGreaseMonkey · Oct 20, 2006, 08:29 AM

This seems to be progressing towards either an "open" between the ECM and the MAP Sensor (connector problem) or a problem with the ECM.

Clive Heath · Oct 21, 2006, 02:00 AM

Hi again.

Thanks very much for that last post. I think we seem to be narrowing the problem down, thanks to your help. If the problem does turn out to be the main relay, I'm hoping that we can fix it with a soldering iron, but if it turns out to be the ECM, then I think we might have problems since my son believes that it is all linked in with the immobiliser. By the way, have you any thoughts on the possibility that the fault could be connected to the immobiliser... that was renewed just about a year ago by our Honda dealership. I'm not sure what functions the immob. Closes down in order to prevent the car from being stolen, but I'm thinking that perhaps it could knock out the ignition system, although I don't know if that would cause the CEL to come on when cranking.

We appreciate your help !

Clive

TxGreaseMonkey · Oct 21, 2006, 08:03 AM

It's possible the anti-theft system could cause the problem. It can be very frustrating working on cars that have them installed, for a host of reasons. You would need to have an anti-theft specialist disable it.

For now, let's proceed with the assumption the security system is not causing the problem. Have you tested all fuses and tested for 5 volts at the MAP Sensor? This should only take a few minutes.

TxGreaseMonkey · Oct 21, 2006, 02:08 PM

There seems to be no progress on your end at all. This should not take so long to diagnose.

Regarding your last comment, 1996+ Civics have an Inertia Reset Button, which should be located behind the brake pedal. Additionally, some anti-theft devices can be reset by turning the ignition to ON for 10 minutes and then turning off. Hope these ideas help.

Sorry, but I don't have the patience to drag these things out.

Clive Heath · Dec 13, 2006, 06:00 AM

Thanks for your last answer...

The car is now running... it was apparently an immobiliser problem !

Now we have the problem of an Airbag light that won't go out. Apparently the reset connector is nowhere to be found. We still haven't got the car back and we're waiting for the same electrician to go to the body shop to sort out this last problem.

The other connectors for fault diagnosis etc were never found on the car ! Weird eh?!

Clive

JAP97civic · Oct 31, 2010, 05:30 AM

I don't have an answer but seems I may have the same problem as Clive. My '97 Honda Civic was hit on the drivers side behind the door. We were able to leave the scene of the accident but after driving about a mile down the road it died. It hasn't started since. It has spark, we've disconnected the fuel line from the fuel rail and have had fuel shoot out, fuel pump comes on/off fine. We've also even taken off the catalytic converter and went with other exhaust just in case it was clogged and checked to make sure the car was in time. We've gotten the car to backfire after changing the firing order. We've tried a different ECU from a running Civic and a Main relay as well, the check engine light comes on and after the 2 clicks from the main relay goes off. Nothing has gotten the car to start. Is there something were missing? We are absolutely at a loss here and don't know what else to check. All the car will do is crank, but never turn over.

TxGreaseMonkey · Oct 31, 2010, 06:59 AM

JAP97civic, perform tests in the link below:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/cars-t...tml#post229012

If the CEL comes on and goes off normally, focus on the distributor. Otherwise, the immobilizer may have been activated, in which case you should take it to Honda.

JAP97civic · Oct 31, 2010, 07:57 AM

Thank you for the advice. I had been looking up information on the immobilizer to find out where it would be located and all of the info I find says that I would have a symbol on my dash letting me know there is an issue. There are not symbols and as far as we were aware there isn't one on the car, but I will still take your advice to determine if this is the issue. Like I said at this point it is very frustrating not knowing what is the cause. Were waiting to take it to Honda until the claim from the accident to come through so we have the funding to do so. I will let you know if your advice resolves the problem! Hopefully it will! Thank you again.

TxGreaseMonkey · Oct 31, 2010, 08:11 AM

JAP97civic, try replacing the Ignition Control Module and coil:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/cars-t...tml#post265896

It's possible that you have spark but the igniter is not firing when it should for proper timing.

JAP97civic · Oct 31, 2010, 08:41 AM

Now the one thing about the ICM, before the wreck I would have an issue where when coming to a stop the car would die, but since it's a 5 speed you could just turn over in neutral and keep going or "kick start" while rolling. We had thought possibly that the idle was too low but it sounds like it could have been a problem before the accident and then after the accident caused the car not to start at all. We have thought about the distributor as well as it has spark but its weak. Now is it true that the coil pack for the car is located in the distributor? If you can tell I've been trying to read up on about every possible problem. I'm looking up where the ICM is located. I'm also at work so I apologize that I can't check any of your ideas at the moment but definitely will be when I get off.