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    classyT's Avatar
    classyT Posts: 1,562, Reputation: 214
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    #21

    Jul 16, 2009, 07:04 PM

    This is kind of off topic but the Apostle Paul says we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit. Now, how are you going to get UNsealed? It ain't happening. Jesus also says he will never leave us or forsake us. Never means just that... NEVER. God cannot lie.
    N0help4u's Avatar
    N0help4u Posts: 19,823, Reputation: 2035
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    #22

    Jul 16, 2009, 07:07 PM

    Yep we are finite and rationalize salvation and other things of God in our finite minds but God is way bigger and transcends our rational limitations.
    Tj3's Avatar
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    #23

    Jul 16, 2009, 07:42 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by N0help4u View Post
    Well with the discussion on less saved and you are saved or you are not and all....
    What Jenni said is relevant because even though we may struggle with or sins and we may even backslide and come back people do tend to say stuff like they got saved,
    they lost their salvation,
    they came back to the Lord.
    God isn't in heaven with a pencil and eraser erasing our name and rewriting it every time we mess up. So even when we have come to Christ and we haven't gotten rid of our old ways God isn't using that eraser either.
    Scripture is clear that is is possible to walk away from (reject) salvation, but not to return.

    Heb 6:4-7
    4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
    NKJV

    A person may backslide, but just backsliding does not mean that a person has ceased to be saved.
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    #24

    Jul 16, 2009, 07:44 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    This is kinda off topic but the Apostle Paul says we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit. Now, how are ya gonna get UNsealed? it ain't happenin. Jesus also says he will never leave us or forsake us. Never means just that...NEVER. God cannot lie.
    He will never leave us - but that does not mean that no one ever leaves Him.
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    #25

    Jul 16, 2009, 07:46 PM

    Yes that is true and many people believe they are Christians thus saved that are not... but as far as somebody that is truly God's then their name may never have been there to be erased even though they may have thought it was.
    There are at least a couple verses that do say something about the elect being deceived or lead away from the faith so yeah it can happen.
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    classyT Posts: 1,562, Reputation: 214
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    #26

    Jul 16, 2009, 07:53 PM

    Tom,

    And what happens if I walk away from the Lord and go do my own thing?. will HE leave me? He said he wouldn't. There wasn't a condition.. he said NEVER. And believe me.. if I could screw something up like my salvation... I will. I know me.
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    #27

    Jul 16, 2009, 07:54 PM

    No, it does not. And folks will pull any kind of scriptures out of the Bible in an attempt to make others conform to their way of thinking, being, and doing. The Bible was not written by GOD, but by humans like you and I. GOD is real! And each of have a right to serve or believe in any way we choose!
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    #28

    Jul 16, 2009, 08:00 PM

    Yeah everybody does have a right that is why he didn't make us puppets or robots but that doesn't mean what we believe IS right. There is only one truth and my goal is to figure out what is true to the best I can.
    You are going to believe what you believe and so am I.

    You can believe God according to your own agenda but in the end if it is wrong then you can't complain.
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    Tj3 Posts: 3,028, Reputation: 112
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    #29

    Jul 16, 2009, 08:08 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    Tom,

    and what happens if I walk away from the Lord and go do my own thing?....will HE leave me? He said he wouldn't. There wasn't a condition ..he said NEVER. and believe me..if I could screw something up like my salvation...i will. I know me.
    Psalm 139 says that we can never leave the presence of God, even if we make our bed in hell. He proved that by coming to earth in the flesh to die on the cross for our sins, for those who were in rebellion against Him. So we know that He does not walk away.

    But scripture is clear that those He is faithful we are not always. That is why when the covenants were make in the OT, it was not a two way covenant, man covenanting with God and God with man, but it was ONLY God who made the covenant because ONLY He is faithful - we are not.

    So man can and may walk away. Will God say that we are lost if we fail - one? Twice, a hundred times? No. But what if a person completely and absolutely reject God, turns away from their salvation, wants absolutely nothing to do with God moving forward. Is that God walking away? No. Will God force Him to spend eternity with Him? Where do we find that in scripture? If God was going to force salvation on anyone, why didn't He do that right from the start?
    classyT's Avatar
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    #30

    Jul 16, 2009, 08:22 PM

    Tom,

    We have discussed this before. If someone has a relationship with the Lord Jesus, not just professes Christianity but talks to him, meditates on His word... KNOWS him how can that person say... " NAAAH.. I choose something else"? I can't wrap my mind around it. It is like me discussing stuff with you and saying... you aren't real or I don't believe that you exsist.. it makes NO sense to me.

    HOWEVER having HEAD knowledge of the Lord and professing Christianity but never really receiving HIM.. oh yeah, I can see how you could walk out and choose something else.. or nothing at all because it was NEVER real.
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    #31

    Jul 16, 2009, 08:30 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Christfollower View Post
    I have many friends who are gay and have not chosen to be that way.
    Have you asked your friends why they chose to be something many people hate and revile? If not, please do so. And ask they if they actually did CHOOSE to be homosexual.

    At what age did you consciously choose to be heterosexual?
    Tj3's Avatar
    Tj3 Posts: 3,028, Reputation: 112
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    #32

    Jul 16, 2009, 08:31 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    Tom,

    We have discussed this before. If someone has a relationship with the Lord Jesus, not just professes Christianity but talks to him, meditates on His word...KNOWS him how can that person say..." NAAAH.. I choose something else"?. I can't wrap my mind around it. It is like me discussing stuff with you and saying ...you aren't real or I don't believe that you exsist..it makes NO sense to me.
    I agree that it is hard to comprehend, but I also find it equally hard to comprehend why the majority of mankind rejects Him in the first place. I cannot comprehend how Peter could deny the Lord three times. I cannot comprehend many things that people do, but they do them nonetheless.

    That being said, I do think that the number of times that anyone reject salvation after being saved would be very very few, but scripture says it does happen, so who am I to say that it doesn't?
    Tj3's Avatar
    Tj3 Posts: 3,028, Reputation: 112
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    #33

    Jul 16, 2009, 08:33 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by WATCHYOURMOUTH View Post
    No, it does not. And folks will pull any kind of scriptures out of the Bible in an attempt to make others conform to their way of thinking, being, and doing. The Bible was not written by GOD, but by humans like you and I.
    There is too much evidence to the contrary to believe that.

    GOD is real! And each of have a right to serve or believe in any way we choose!
    Yes you do, and God has the right to dictate what you must do to be saved.
    classyT's Avatar
    classyT Posts: 1,562, Reputation: 214
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    #34

    Jul 16, 2009, 08:38 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    I agree that it is hard to comprehend, but I also find it equally hard to comprehend why the majority of mankind rejects Him in the first place. I cannot comprehend how Peter could deny the Lord three times. I cannot comprehend many things that people do, but they do them nonetheless.

    That being said, I do think that the number of times that anyone reject salvation after being saved would be very very few, but scripture says it does happen, so who am I to say that it doesn't?
    Well now Tommy boy you know if scripture SAID it.. I'd believe it. I don't think it does say it. I think you need to put it into context! The writer of Hebrews in my humble opinion was NOT talking about true Christians... only those that "tasted" "partook" how many people in our churches today are just like them? LOTS... and LOTSSS... all head knowledge.. that is my take.

    Your pal,

    Tess
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    #35

    Jul 16, 2009, 08:43 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by ;
    Does being gay make you less of a christian?
    I don't think anything makes you less a christian, or less ANYTHING.

    God said we are ALL EQUAL IN HIS EYES. We are ALL equall sinners, we are all either christian or not. You can't be 'well, I'm 20% christian, but not 100%"

    If you are not 100% christian, I don't believe you are a christian AT ALL.


    There. I said my peace (or piece. How ever its suppose to be said) lets see what anyone has to say about that ;) hehe
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    Tj3 Posts: 3,028, Reputation: 112
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    #36

    Jul 16, 2009, 09:27 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    Well now Tommy boy ya know if scripture SAID it..i'd believe it. I don't think it does say it. I think you need to put it into context! The writer of Hebrews in my humble opinion was NOT talking about true Christians...only those that "tasted" "partook" how many people in our churches today are just like them?
    Just like Jesus only "tasted" death on the cross?

    Heb 2:8-9
    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
    NKJV

    Does that mean that He did not really die?

    Partaking of the Holy Spirit is the same term used by peter to describe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:4). Is Peter speaking of people who are not really saved?
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    #37

    Jul 17, 2009, 05:58 AM

    Tom,

    I don't know because I haven't study it out. ( about Peter's terminology and use of the word) Of course the Lord really died, he didn't stay dead though and last time I checked everyone that has died so far has stayed DEAD. ( that is their earthly bodies anyway) So in that way I could see why Paul says he 'tasted" death. These obviously are just my thoughts...
    Tj3's Avatar
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    #38

    Jul 17, 2009, 06:02 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    Tom,

    I don't know because I haven't study it out. ( about Peter's terminology and use of the word) Of course the Lord really died, he didn't stay dead though and last time I checked everyone that has died so far has stayed DEAD. ( that is their earthly bodies anyway) So in that way I could see why Paul says he 'tasted" death. These obviously are just my thoughts....
    But He was really dead and came back to life.

    Just like those who taste of the Holy Spirit. Really saved and then cease to be. They tasted of the Holy Spirit just like Jesus tasted of death.
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    #39

    Jul 17, 2009, 06:09 AM

    Let me add this. The word tasted is geuomai, which according to Strong's means:

    a primary verb; to taste; by implication, to eat; figuratively, to experience (good or ill):

    The word "partakers" referring to being partakers of the Holy Spirit is metochos which, again according to Strong's, means:

    participant, i.e. (as noun) a sharer; by implication an associate:

    I understand your difficulty is seeing how a person could be saved and then turn away from it. I share that difficulty. I find it more difficult to argue that scripture does not say that there are some who do leave the faith after being saved.
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    sndbay Posts: 1,447, Reputation: 62
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    #40

    Jul 17, 2009, 06:20 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jenniepepsi View Post
    i dont think anything makes you less a christian, or less ANYTHING.

    god said we are ALL EQUAL IN HIS EYES. we are ALL equall sinners, we are all either christian or not. you can't be 'well, im 20% christian, but not 100%"

    if you are not 100% christian, i dont believe you are a christian AT ALL.


    there. i said my peace (or peice. how ever its suppose to be said) lets see what anyone has to say about that ;) hehe
    Scripture tells us that God is equal, and HIS way is equal for all. Everyone has the same equal way to live in Christ, in Faith of all that is written. The gospel is profitable unto godliness, and (all souls belong to God. Eze 18:4)

    It is man that is not equal, nor are his ways equal.

    EXAMPLE: Eze 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? Are not your ways unequal?

    When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die... However! Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

    Eze 18:29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? Are not your ways unequal?
    ********

    When you say God does not use a pencil and eraser to what we are doing, I find HIS judgement to be upon righteousness. God certainly cares for each of us, and God does watch over us, and give us reprove and tries us. (That is HIS pencil and eraser...) The book of revelation speaks of those who will be clothed in fine linen, and it is the righteousness of acts that makes us ready as a bride for the wedding. (Revel 19:7)
    Those who follow Christ are clothed in fine linen, clean and white.

    Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

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