[kimberly600]

The guy who demo'd my bathroom, installed cement board, then tile has done some things that I question -

He did not caulk the cement board seams before putting up tile
He did not fill new tub to test it before tiling. By the time the plumber came half of the tile was on the wall so there was no "testing" done. The drain did not hold water, the ceiling below is damp, as well as the top half of the wall in room below. Paint is cracking and feels spongy. I am having plumber come by to adjust drain and tell me what to do about ceiling and walls. Do I need to open up asap and replace asap so as not to get mold? (The main reason for the demo in the first place, but not the same cause of mold.)

The tile work is level, he says, but not straight vertically especially, and the grout lines are inconsistent in width. He says the walls were not plumb, but the tile is level. He did not run any kind of string while tiling nor use chalk, etc. nor lay out the tile beforehand for either floor or tub surround.

He grouted all the corners as well as the line where the first row of tiles meets the tub. Grout only.

Do I put clear caulk over the grout? Leave it alone - dig it out?

There are many reasons I am not happy but for now I am just trying to ensure that I don't have problems down the line.

I always thought caulk goes in the corners and tubline - but there is grout there now.

This is a bathroom and tub/shower that is heavily used by my four children.

Advice?

Thanks

[massplumber2008]

Hi Kimberly:

He shouldn't have filled the cement board seams with caulking... he should have placed a mildew-resistant mesh tape and the wall tile adhesive he is using to install the tile at the seams.

The plumber is responsible for testing the tub water and waste... has nothing to do with the tile guy except that they should have coordinated things a little better, perhaps...

Now.. some use grout at corners and between tub and tile... some use caulking/silicone. I started learning the grout method... moved on to the caulking/silicone method as I became convinced that different materials contract/expand at different rates and buildings settle... so think this the best method. However, I also know from experience that there are an awful lot of older jobs out there where the caulking is still standing up in between these materials without issue... but things were done differently then... for sure!

What material is the tub made from.. Fiberglass, acrylic, or cast iron... each needs to be set differently and will make a big difference in long term here, so let me know... O.K.

MARK

[kimberly600]

Mark -

Hello, thank you!

The tub is an american standard acrylic, I think, with some kind of insulating factor in the walls. Looks quite basic - bought at Home Depot, the next best to the cast iron, which I replaced because it was uncleanable and trashed.
Honestly, I don't know how he installed the tub - the plumber, regretably perhaps, was not involved. It seems solid and stable, but we don't know yet.
Thank you for your input. So I will leave the grout as is and no caulking needed at this time, if I understand you correctly. I feel a little better - fingers crossed.

K

[massplumber2008]

Hmmm...

An Americast tub is extremely flexible compared to the old cast iron tubs. I would have definitely caulked/siliconed between the first row of tiles and the tub. In fact, the manufacturer calls for a sealant as well. You can look up the installation instructions for your tub at:

www.americanstandard-us.com

Americast tubs are NOT supposed to be set in mortar... voids warranty, but they do require that a STRINGER board be installed end to end of the tub (you can't see it as it under the tub). See if the plumber can see that stringer board when he opens up the ceiling. If not, you will have other isues in the future!

Finally, if the tiles are not straight VERTICALLY throughout the install... EXCEPT at the corners, perhaps, because the walls are out of plumb then the guy is definitely a HACK as any decent tile guy will make plumb lines and install tile so it is straight everywhere.

Any chance you can post a picture of this work..? Was a plumbing permit or building permit issued for the job (I'm betting not! ).

Letr me know...

MARK

[Bljack]

He did not caulk the cement board seams before putting up tile

Actually, it's alkali resistant mesh tape, not mildew resistant tape, they don't get caulked, they get taped and thinsetted, tile adhesive (mastics) should not ever be used in a tub with a shower for any reason. I really hope that prior to installing the cement board, that your isntaller used some sort of moisture barrier over the wall framing and overlapping the flange of the tub, either 4 mil plastic sheeting or 15lb roofing felt. Your cement board is 100% NOT waterproof, only 100% not affected by water. It will very happily allow water to pass right through. If a moisture barrier was not used, you can expect to have plenty of issues. Grout sealer does not water proof the grout either.

The tile work is level, he says, but not straight vertically especially, and the grout lines are inconsistent in width.

My guess is that he may have tried to cheat some grout lines or the tile came from different calibers. When tile comes out of the kiln and cools, it's all marked with the dye lot, but they don't all cool down to the same size. They are sorted into similar size groupings known as and marked as "calibers" 2 tiles, same lot, but different calibers can vary in size by 1/8" or more.

Out of plumb walls mean the grout lines from one wall to the next would be wider or narrower to maintain tile at the same level, still no excuse, though, there are tile industry standards for tolerances on the framing.

He grouted all the corners as well as the line where the first row of tiles meets the tub. Grout only.

Do I put clear caulk over the grout? Leave it alone - dig it out?

Those areas should only ever be caulked. Grout will always crack out of those areas. Long ago, when surrounds were formed by using cement over metal lath, you had essentially a monolithic cement structure within the house and the inside corners could be grouted because the entire surround acted as one structure independent of the house. With cement board, each panel is going to react with the wall to which it's attached. For this reason, it gets caulked. This is why what used to work does not work now. When walls are floated, they can still be grouted.

Caulk will only perform as well as it's base. Caulk over cracking, unstable grout will fail in short order, so remove the grout prior to caulking. Fill the tub with water prior to caulking the tub line and allow it to remain filled with water during the curing time of the grout. If your children are young, keep the door locked to prevent any tragic accident.


Any chance you took pictures during the renovation and can post them here or provide a link to them?

[kimberly600]

I can email some pictures. Haven' t yet saved them to a folder or link... guess I'm not sure how to do that at the moment.

Will get back to you - I appreciate your help.
K

[Bljack]

An easy photo sharing option is to create a free account at Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket and upload your photos there. Once you do that, you can post a link to your online photo album.

[massplumber2008]

Or you can just post them here under the go advanced feature at the text box when posting. Here, click GO ADVANCED, then click MANAGE ATTACHMENTS then click BROWSE and upload your saved pics. Then click SAVE CHANGES and all will post here.

Let us know..

MARK

[kimberly600]

Here are a few.

[ballengerb1]

Lack of spacers and experienced caused the problem way more than out of plumb wall. Did you watch him do the install, bet he started in a corner didn't he.

[Bljack]

Spacers or starting in a corner have nothing to do with it. Did his breath smell of alcohol or did he make his way through your home with the assistance of a white cane or a highly trained dog? All I can say about those pictures is :eek::eek::eek:

I've never seen anything so horrible. Really. Whoever did this needs to reimburse you for the tile, the installation labor you paid and the cost of someone else to demo the job to redo it. Another thing, caulk will not bridge a gap that large at the tub/tile intersection. It should have been no more than 1/8". Do you know the financial limit for small claims court in your jurisdiction?

[massplumber2008]

Yeah...

No excuse on this guys part... inexperienced guy pretending to be experienced... shame!

And I'm also betting that he started in the corner trying to use as many full tiles as possible. I'll also bet that the grout line at the tub goes from thin to even thicker as you go around from one end of the tub to the other... ;) These are very common beginner mistakes!

That large grout line will crack as soon as you fill the tub with water and will eventually be a problem when you try to caulk over it and the caulking turns black because mold/mildew grew in behind the grout and simply can't be removed after the fact!

Any word from the plumber on the installation of the tub and that leak you mentioned..?

Let me know...

MARK

[mygirlsdad77]

Honestly, I don't know how he installed the tub - the plumber, regretably perhaps, was not involved.

K

Did the same person that laid the tile install the tub? Sounds like you had a jack of all trades (master of none) do all the work. I guessing this person was not associated with a reputable company. The money you saved by having a do it yourselfer do the job, may indeed cost you a fortune in the end. I do truly hope you get this fixed at installers expense(one of the worst tile jobs I've seen.). Please let us know how things work out.

[kimberly600]

Thank you all - the plumber comes tomorrow or Thursday and I will let you know...

[kimberly600]

Yeah...

No excuse on this guys part....inexperienced guy pretending to be experienced...shame!!

And I'm also betting that he started in the corner trying to use as many full tiles as possible. I'll also bet that the grout line at the tub goes from thin to even thicker as you go around from one end of the tub to the other...;) These are very common beginner mistakes!

That large grout line will crack as soon as you fill the tub with water and will eventually be a problem when you try to caulk over it and the caulking turns black because mold/mildew grew in behind the grout and simply can't be removed after the fact!

Any word from the plumber on the installation of the tub and that leak you mentioned...??

Let me know...

MARK

Yes, the grout line goes exactly as you suggest.
At it's widest it is at least .5 inches near left corner down to about 1/4 inch. Very inconsistent.
That was my concern (one of many) - the grout line will not hold. I've discussed this with installer several times, to no avail.
I did this project (my first ever renovation!) despite a very strained budget because I had mold around the tubline and even on the groutlines of the floor - due to a toilet overflow a couple of years ago.
I was concerned about our health, and resale not to mention the way it looked.

Thanks for your help. I really appreciate the feedback.
Plumber tomorrow or Thursday. Good guy - a pro that I trust.
New tile, new installer, new demo has to be the next step. It is clear.
The project started 3 months ago - we are ready for a second bathroom again but even if everything was sound, none of us will be able to take a shower or bath in peace the way it is.


Be well.

K

[Milo Dolezal]

Agree, the tile looks sloppy ( grout lines don't line up ) but it is only visual problem. If you use sanded fortified grout, you can go wider with joints. I don't see any missing grout that would suggest it is allowing water through. The leak was probably plumbing related.

I know I am not saying what you want to hear, but: In contrary to the previous advices, I must inform you that we do not caulk new work where tile meets tub. We grout it. If done properly, grout will not crack.

Yes, yellow mesh tape should be applied at seems at the time of tile installation...

Some of the source of cracks in grout may be: unstable floor, weak joists, no ledger support installed, and new framing using wet lumber. All these problems are associated with prep-work and may not be tile-man related...

[iamgrowler]

I know I am not saying what you want to hear, but: In contrary to the previous advices, I must inform you that we do not caulk new work where tile meets tub. We grout it. If done properly, grout will not crack.

I PM'd a few of the Tilesetters I have worked with over the years last night, and they said that the edge between the tub and the bottom course of tile should be caulked with an elastomeric caulk -- In most cases they buy a tube of color matched sanded caulk when they buy their grout for the job.

The reason being that a grouted joint will crack as the tub flexes, particularly composite tubs like the Americast.

[massplumber2008]

Iamgrowler and Milo...

I repeat what I said at my 2nd post...

An Americast tub is extremely flexible compared to the old cast iron tubs. I would have definitely caulked/siliconed between the first row of tiles and the tub. In fact, the manufacturer calls for a sealant as well.

Thanks...

MARK

[Milo Dolezal]

MARK, I hate to say it but you are incorrect...

I just walked out of my bathroom. There is a "plastic" (acrylic) Kohler Memoir tub, tiled, and grouted. Even though the tub is jetted, there are NO cracks along the edge where "plastic" tub meets cementous grout. It has been that way for two years now.

FYI: there are no cracks because close attention was paid to framing and tub installation to prevent the problem of cracked grout.

I understand caulking may be the way to go in your area but it is not in my area. We consider caulking as the last the option. No new tile work is caulked in my area.

If you've never seen properly installed acrylic tub with grout line along its edge than let me know - I can take a photo of it and post it for you. :D

Cheers...

PS: well, I did take a photo of it... See for yourself...

[massplumber2008]

Hey Milo...

It's not what is acceptable in my area or your area. It is simply a FACT that the manufacturer of the AMERICAST tub REQUIRES a flexible SEALANT be used for this tub no matter if tile or tub surround is used. There's simply is no debating that... ;) You can always check it out at their website.

I have installed tons of tubs over the years with no issues myself... all cast iron, by the way, but as a rule I started using the Kohler color matched grout years ago because sometimes we are remodeling plumbers and we can't always reframe the floors/joists/walls, etc... simply not in the scope of the job sometimes... and there will be flex and give such that the grout line cracks and mildew/mold begins to creep in and that is awful... so as a rule almost everyone I know goes with the flexible sealants today.

In this case, being the HACK tile job that I see and the fact that Kimberly said that the tile guy set the tub as well I will still STRONGLY recommend that the grout get pulled out NOW, before the tub area is used and mildew/mold can set in. Then Kimberly's contractor can install a sanded CAULKING... ;) Sold almost everywhere nowadays!

Remember, we are still waiting to hear what Kim's plumber has to say about the tub installation (remember that leak in the ceiling? ).


Talk soon...

MARK