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Clawman59 · Jun 11, 2009, 06:56 AM

I am installing a ceiling fan that has a remote control. The box where the fan will be installed has two hot feeds, ground and no neutral. The reason for this is that the old fan was controlled in the following manner. One wall switch (black hot lead) controlled the light, a second wall switch (white hot Lead) controlled the motor. The fan control has a black hot in and a white neutral in, and on the other side has a white out to motor (neutral), black out motor (hot) and a blue to the light. My question is how do I wire up this fixture if I don't have a white neutral at the fan from the home wiring.

Perito · Jun 11, 2009, 07:05 AM

The reason for this is that the old fan was controlled in the following manner. One wall switch (black hot lead) controlled the light, a second wall switch (white hot Lead) controlled the motor.

You still had to have a return leg in order to complete the circuit. How was that accomplished. Did they use the ground? Maybe the electricians know, but I don't -- and what's with the "white hot lead". That sounds like it's a violation of the NEC. I'll wait for the electricians to teach me something here, also.

Clawman59 · Jun 11, 2009, 07:26 AM

It was not a violation when the house was built in '79. The white lead that is hot is marked as hot and the old fan used the ground as the neutral, I'm just not sure who to do it with the remote control unit, as the fan needs this unit to control the light and fan speed.

ballengerb1 · Jun 11, 2009, 07:39 AM

I do not believe that code, even in 1979, allowed using the ground wire for a neutral. No matter, lets find a way to to answer your question and I will for the moment continue to use the ground as a neutral. You will only need to use one of your black to get power to the remote receiver in the canopy of the fan. I am guessing that the two blacks can from a single incoming hot so, if done with pigtails, undo that connection and take it back to a single black hot. The hot and the ground (neutral) go to the box above the fan and are connected to the receover. The receiver outputs are black, white to fan motor and blue/white to light kit. Have I answered your question yet?

Clawman59 · Jun 11, 2009, 07:56 AM

You got it just about right. I have added a drawing of my situation. I think an idiot wired my house when it was built, but anyway. In the kitchen is a switch that has a hot lead to the fan, this controls the motor, in the den where the fan is at is a switch at the doorway that has a hot lead to the fan that controls the light. So at the box in the ceiling there is a single white lead (Hot) goes to the light, a single black lead (Hot) that goes to the motor and a bare copper ground. I know the way is should have been done is to run the neutral to the ceiling box from both switches and joined them there, but that is not the case, the neutrals are terminated in the wall at the switch, and I would have to rip down the ceiling to have it rewired as this is the first floor of a split level. Any suggestions would be grateful

Thanks

ballengerb1 · Jun 11, 2009, 08:02 AM

What color is your ground wire?

Clawman59 · Jun 11, 2009, 08:09 AM

The ground is bare copper from romex NM-B12/2. You can see my problem two hots and a bare copper ground, which I think the old fan used as the neutral.

ballengerb1 · Jun 11, 2009, 08:13 AM

This is a unsafe system but the Nm 12/2 has a black, white and a ground. Are you sure this is what you have?

Clawman59 · Jun 11, 2009, 08:22 AM

My whole house is wired with romex, and this is original to the house so some inspector had to check it when the house was built and the wiring installed. I'v lived in the house for ten years.

ballengerb1 · Jun 11, 2009, 08:24 AM

Doesn't your 12/2 have 3 wires; black, white and green/bare ground?

tkrussell · Jun 11, 2009, 08:31 AM

Bare or green equipment grounding conductors cannot be, and never were, allowed to be used for any purpose other than equipment grounding.

Inspectors do miss things, esp after fixtures have been installed and rarely checking to see how conductors were used. Something like this would not get picked up during a rough wire inspection.

Using equipment grounding conductors as neutrals, in this case, means the light fixtures or fans were never grounded.

If a ground wire does get connected to the system as a neutral, this can then allow neutral current be imposed on the entire grounding system of the home.

Until you are able to get the proper wiring installed so that the fan has a system neutral conductor AND an equipment grounding conductor, I see no one here being able to help you.

ballengerb1 · Jun 11, 2009, 08:36 AM

Clawman, can you answer my last question? If you have NM 12/2 tell us what wires are in the cable.

Clawman59 · Jun 11, 2009, 08:37 AM

Yes, but in this case they did not run a neutral to the ceiling box, they used is as a hot feed. So in the box I have white hot, black hot, bear ground and the neutral for both switches that feed the two hots to the ceiling box are terminated in the walls at the switch with the other switchs for other fixtures. And yes this is the only fixture in the whole house that is wire in this manner, and something tells me that the solution is to rip down the ceiling and run new romex with a nutral at the ceiling box.

ballengerb1 · Jun 11, 2009, 08:44 AM

I agree and suspect some fool tried to make a single switched light into a double switch for a light and fan. There may be hope since this is the only fixture wired like this (feeling better now) You have the right colors reaching the fan to have a hot, neutral and ground. Lets go back to the switch box, there should be a cable supplying power to the box, incoming. Do you find a supply line entering the box that is hot, neutral and ground with all the correct colors, ignor the wires after the switch for the moment.

tkrussell · Jun 11, 2009, 08:44 AM

Unfortunately,

Originally Posted by Clawman59

and something tells me that the solution is to rip down the ceiling and run new romex with a nutral at the ceiling box.

I see no other choice but to install new cable so that all live and neutral conductors are insulated, leaving a bare or green grounding conductor in place for exactly that, grounding only.

Clawman59 · Jun 11, 2009, 09:12 AM

Ballengerb1 and tkrussell I want to thank you for taking time to help me with this issue. I knew that the wiring was not done correctly to begin with so I think I will run a new line and fix the problem the correct way.
Thanks Again

ballengerb1 · Jun 11, 2009, 09:32 AM

A new cable might be needed but please go back to post #14 and try to answer my questions. I think your switch is likely supplied with the correct wiring and then someone did a jury rig at the switch. Tell us what wires enter the switch box from the panel, there is one last ditch toght regarding a possible fix.

ceilingfanrepair · Jun 30, 2009, 01:35 PM

Ok per my understanding:

The new fan needs only 2 wires and a ground. With the old fan you had 2 wires and a ground being used as a neutral.

What color wires are at the fan, from the ceiling? Is it black white and bare?

ceilingfanrepair · Jun 30, 2009, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Clawman59

Yes, but in this case they did not run a neutral to the ceiling box, they used is as a hot feed. So in the box I have white hot, black hot, bear ground and the neutral for both switches that feed the two hots to the ceiling box are terminated in the walls at the switch with the other switchs for other fixtures. And yes this is the only fixture in the whole house that is wire in this manner, and something tells me that the solution is to rip down the ceiling and run new romex with a nutral at the ceiling box.

Ok I just saw this post.

I don't think you need to run a new wire.

At the fan, connect black to black, white to white, ground to ground.

At the switch, connect black to the switch, white to neutral, and the other wire from the switch to hot. Ground to ground.

It should work.