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    HelpinHere's Avatar
    HelpinHere Posts: 1,062, Reputation: 144
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    #41

    Jul 15, 2009, 11:12 PM

    Hmm...
    I'll throw in a link to the answer to the question in the subject!

    ye

    I just felt like it... Blackkdark is doing a wonderful job here, it isn't necessary, but yeah! I found it and felt I had to.
    simoneaugie's Avatar
    simoneaugie Posts: 2,490, Reputation: 438
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    #42

    Jul 16, 2009, 12:01 AM

    Hi Patrick,

    My dad always says Ms. is a cop-out. I told him that because Master isn't used like Miss, then Ms. is the same as Mister. Who is right?
    Blackkdark's Avatar
    Blackkdark Posts: 59, Reputation: 3
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    #43

    Jul 16, 2009, 01:23 AM

    Haha, well, Miss and Ms. have the same root, it's more of a political correct form that developed later. In fact both Miss and Mrs. also come from the same root: Mistress. It was a culture shift. Our culture wanted a term for an older unmarried woman, so they created Ms. We wanted to respect them and still show what level they are at in marriage.
    'tis all well, many words form this way.
    Blackkdark's Avatar
    Blackkdark Posts: 59, Reputation: 3
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    #44

    Jul 16, 2009, 11:00 AM

    HelpinHere,
    Well I did already answer it earlier, but it´s always good to have more sources to back me up. No worries.
    HelpinHere's Avatar
    HelpinHere Posts: 1,062, Reputation: 144
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    #45

    Jul 16, 2009, 11:02 AM

    Lol, I know. I just ran across it, and thought, "why not?"
    simoneaugie's Avatar
    simoneaugie Posts: 2,490, Reputation: 438
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    #46

    Jul 16, 2009, 09:33 PM
    I like Mistress, it represents someone who commands, is in charge. Ms. is a reaction, in my mind, to males needing to know if a woman is spoken for (owned.) What about the development and use of Mister and Master though?
    Blackkdark's Avatar
    Blackkdark Posts: 59, Reputation: 3
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    #47

    Jul 16, 2009, 10:57 PM

    Well, I wouldn't say that the development of Ms. was to say if a woman was spoken for or not. Actually, quite the opposite, I would figure it to be something that arose out of a feminist ideal, the idea that a Miss is a young unmarried female, and Mrs. is a married female, Ms. was a respectful term for a non-child female who is unmarried.

    Now, Mister, that does come from the word Master. This isn't uncommon, and in fact these are often changed into the pronouns for you in quite a few Romance languages. In Spanish, Usted, comes from a root meaning "lord" and domnul in Romanian has the same root as the latin Dominus or "lord." In Portuguese, the word senhor (similar to signore in Italian) meaning a formal pronoun you.
    ravana2's Avatar
    ravana2 Posts: 146, Reputation: 1
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    #48

    Jul 16, 2009, 11:34 PM

    Please complete this .

    I - me

    Thou - thee

    He - ?

    She - ?

    It - ?

    We - ?

    You - ye

    They - ?
    Blackkdark's Avatar
    Blackkdark Posts: 59, Reputation: 3
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    #49

    Jul 16, 2009, 11:52 PM

    Okay, well, I'll just do the whole bit, cause you mixed up one of 'em:
    I - me

    Thou - thee

    He - him

    She - her

    It - it

    We - us

    You - you

    They - them
    ravana2's Avatar
    ravana2 Posts: 146, Reputation: 1
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    #50

    Jul 17, 2009, 04:24 AM

    [edit] Etymology 1From Old English ġē, the nominative case of the second person plural personal pronoun. See also you.

    ye - Wiktionary
    Blackkdark's Avatar
    Blackkdark Posts: 59, Reputation: 3
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    #51

    Jul 17, 2009, 04:41 AM

    Yeah, you see Nominative case. That's Old English. You asked for Modern English. I can give you all the personal pronouns for All Eras of English, but ye was not really common in the Modern era. Either way, it would be interchangeable with you, not the accusative case of it.

    I know where Ye and You come from. And it also says that Ye is archaic, as in not really used anymore.

    Btw, Nominative = Nominativ, Accusative = Akuzativ

    your pattern was:
    Nominative - Accusative
    And ye was originally only used for the nom.
    YoungHyperLink's Avatar
    YoungHyperLink Posts: 152, Reputation: 13
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    #52

    Jul 17, 2009, 09:50 AM

    Blackdark,
    I think you misread simoneaugie.
    Blackkdark's Avatar
    Blackkdark Posts: 59, Reputation: 3
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    #53

    Jul 17, 2009, 07:25 PM

    I'd be happy to give a different answer, but I don't see where I misread (I'm assuming) her.
    Blackkdark's Avatar
    Blackkdark Posts: 59, Reputation: 3
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    #54

    Jul 17, 2009, 07:31 PM

    Unless you mean about Mister and Master not having the same development as Mistress to Miss, Ms. and Mrs. If that's the case, it's probably an older development. Most Indo-European languages have a feminine form which differs from younger girls to older ones, and one general term for the male.
    That might have to do with cultural values relating to the two genders. Chances are, that started in France, since France is where most rules of formality were formed, and from there it was passed to the rest of Europe.
    simoneaugie's Avatar
    simoneaugie Posts: 2,490, Reputation: 438
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    #55

    Jul 17, 2009, 08:19 PM

    I thought Master is the "correct" way to address an unmarried male. Then Mister would mean that the man is married. If Mister is used exclusively then why have Master at all? Were these terms used in English long ago?
    Blackkdark's Avatar
    Blackkdark Posts: 59, Reputation: 3
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    #56

    Jul 17, 2009, 08:40 PM

    Well, yes. Master in Modern English has several meanings. If say a person becomes an expert, than he is a master, so a Master magician, or logician, or blacksmith (even expressions like Schoolmaster can still be heard). Then there's the concept of the Master of the house, which relates it back to the "lord" concept. Also, if a person works for another, he or she often refers to the male children as 'master' (this is more common with those from Britain). However, this is not restricted to children, and adult married and unmarried males can be referred to as 'master.'

    In some cases, schools (not usually American ones) a boy may be called 'master' but I cannot common on how widespread that is.

    And again, Mister comes FROM Master, and originally Master had a different meaning, that of someone who's has quite literally a Mastery of a subject. In my mind, they occupy two different spheres of usage in the English language. I don't associate Master with Mister, save in the historical origins.
    YoungHyperLink's Avatar
    YoungHyperLink Posts: 152, Reputation: 13
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    #57

    Jul 18, 2009, 11:19 AM

    No, I meant that in your answer you took simone to mean that Ms. developed to determine whether a woman was spoken for or not; what she was really saying (and I agree) was that Ms. developed as a reaction against the idea that it was important to know whether a woman was spoken for or not (Miss, Mrs.).
    Blackkdark's Avatar
    Blackkdark Posts: 59, Reputation: 3
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    #58

    Jul 18, 2009, 11:58 AM

    I'm not sure if I agree by the wording, but I also don't think it ultimately matters. The argument against both is simple, that if there is a difference in pronunciation, than Ms. and Mrs. still show the difference between a married and unmarried woman, and thus it's development in that sense is pointless.

    Either way, Ms. is not likely to develop as a reaction to the idea of understanding if a female is married or not, but more likely to the idea that if a female is unmarried, it doesn't necessarily mean they are young or ignorant. That is, that a mature woman can still be unmarried, and thus a Mrs. I'd say it has more to do with connotations that Miss entails such as innocence or child-like mentality.
    ravana2's Avatar
    ravana2 Posts: 146, Reputation: 1
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    #59

    Jul 25, 2009, 12:31 AM

    Blackkdark .

    I jointed your web page . Can you recommend me someone who is god in thou/hath way of speaking ?

    Newcastle will be perfect .
    Blackkdark's Avatar
    Blackkdark Posts: 59, Reputation: 3
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    #60

    Jul 25, 2009, 07:53 AM

    What? Jointed? What web page?
    In the Early Modern way of speaking? I can recommend READING Shakespeare, he's the one whom we have the most texts in the Early Modern period. There are others, but he is the best for a beginner.
    Newcastle?

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