[galveston]

Elements of this have appeared in various posts and threads, so let's see if we can bring them all together.

My working hypothesis is that there is no conflict between scientific estimates of the age of Earth and the Bible. Give your thoughts and prepare to defend them with something of substance. I will be defending the Biblical position, with help from all interested parties.

We may not arrive at consesus, but maybe it should be interesting. Good will to all!

[450donn]

See, I cannot disagree with your thoughts. If God did as he says it is perfectly logical that the earth is as old as the mad scientists of the world want us to believe. Between Ge 1:1 and Ge 1;31 there is no actual time line listed except that God did it in six days. So the question has to be what is a day to God?

[Tj3]

See, I cannot disagree with your thoughts. If God did as he says it is perfectly logical that the earth is as old as the mad scientists of the world want us to believe. Between Ge 1:1 and Ge 1;31 there is no actual time line listed except that God did it in six days. So the question has to be what is a day to God?

Scripture in Genesis says that it consists of the passage of one evening and one morning - nothing more.

Often people take the reference that a day is as a thousand years out of context and apply it to this, but if you look at that passgae, it is solely an analogy regarding God's long suffering towards the lost.

2 Peter 3:8-9
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
NKJV

[galveston]

I believe that there is a time gap between Gen. 1:1 and 1:3 that could have been of ANY length. Beginning with verse 3 we have the record of God re-creating life on this planet, and it would have been 6 literal days.

This accounts for all ancient fossils and does not show any evidence of Biblical error.

I may get flack from two sides on this, but it makes sense to me.

[Tj3]

I believe that there is a time gap between Gen. 1:1 and 1:3 that could have been of ANY length. Beginning with verse 3 we have the record of God re-creating life on this planet, and it would have been 6 literal days.

This accounts for all ancient fossils and does not show any evidence of Biblical error.

I may get flack from two sides on this, but it makes sense to me.

First, it is important that we establish doctrine based upon what scripture does say, not on silence.

Second, there are several issues with this theory.

- Death on earth started when sin entered the world. To suggest that there was death beforehand would be a denial of the gospel, and minimizing the importance of Jesus' defeat of death.

- Scripture is clear that creation from start to end took only six days - that includes heavens and earth. This is clear not just from Genesis but elsewhere in scripture:

Ex 20:11
11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.
NKJV

- There was no land prior to Gen 1:2

Gen 1:2-3
2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
NKJV

Without land, the gap theory falls apart since those who promote the gap theory suggest that this explains what they believe to be age, fossils etc. of land animals and plants.

[galveston]

The word "was" in verse 2 is:

a primitive root [compare 1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):

KJV-- beacon, X altogether, be (-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (oneself-), require, X use.

Indicates that the "void and without form" is somehing that happened.

When God created (or re-created) things, each time the phrase is that God saw that it was good. It's not likely that God would have created an Earth in the condition of verse 2.

I knew there would be disagreement on this. I'm waiting for the evolutionists to weigh in.

[Tj3]

The word "was" in verse 2 is:

a primitive root [compare 1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):

KJV-- beacon, X altogether, be (-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (oneself-), require, X use.

Indicates that the "void and without form" is somehing that happened.

When God created (or re-created) things, each time the phrase is that God saw that it was good. It's not likely that God would have created an Earth in the condition of verse 2.

I knew there would be disagreement on this. I'm waiting for the evolutionists to weigh in.

This does not address the points that I raised. The word "was" must be taken in context. Note that it can mean either to exist or to become, so to take one meaning of that and to interpret it out of the wider context would be inappropriate. Here is a more detailed definition:

to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out

1. (Qal)
1. to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass
2. to come about, come to pass
3. to come into being, become
4. to arise, appear, come
5. to become
6. to become
7. to become like
8. to be instituted, be established
9. to be
10. To exist, be in existence
11. To abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time)
12. To stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality)
13. To accompany, be with
2. (Niphal)
1. to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about
2. to be done, be finished, be gone
(Source: Hayah - Hebrew Lexicon)

The condition of the earth was an interim state and to say that God would not have created it in that state and continued to work on it is a judgment that I don't think that we are qualified to make.

The points that I made before still stand.

[sndbay]

I believe that there is a time gap between Gen. 1:1 and 1:3 that could have been of ANY length. Beginning with verse 3 we have the record of God re-creating life on this planet, and it would have been 6 literal days.

This accounts for all ancient fossils and does not show any evidence of Biblical error.

I may get flack from two sides on this, but it makes sense to me.

I agree with this idea..

The condition of the earth was an interim state and to say that God would not have created it in that state and continued to work on it is a judgment that I don't think that we are qualified to make.

The points that I made before still stand.

Tom, just to add to what galveston has opened the mind for in possible history: if we consider the verse ( Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. ) Stop...


Then consider the thought of ( Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. )

This may or may not be what anyone else has ever come up with in understanding. But what we can acknowledge that it is not one verse but the entire book of scripture that tells all.


We know there was a big tremble between satan, plus satan's fall angels, and God. What was here once before man was created, could have been the land of dinosour and an ape simliar to man of flesh. An exsistence of that was brought forth from a big destruction between satan and God then could be ( Genesis 1:2 And the earth (became) without form, and void; and darkness (became) upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. )

Then begins the earth we know today.. ( Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.)

To open the mind to what is written in scripture as being possibly different then what man has taught over the years, is to permit what science holds possible, and what scripture tells us in truth.

[sndbay]

Another point that could add to this in interest, was the flood of Naoh, and how differently the occurance of this earth was after God destroyed man and the earth. The word destroy leads most to think one way. Where I feel the earth did not perish at that time, but rather was wash of it's evil and cleaned.

Note the meaning of destroy as: go to ruin, decay, to pervert, corrupt

( Genesis 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. )

So when you read the scripture to (2 Peter 3:8- 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.)

AND

(2 Peter 3: 5-6-7) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

ASK yourself if the heaven was also affected by Noah's flood.. Not to my knowledge, right?
These verses are speaking of a time that the earth perished...became void! It brings the possilbe second idea of water used twice, once done before Noah, in the destruction of what evil brought...noted the promise of God there after never to use flood again.

And I will add that dinosours bones have been found under the ice of years, being possible of frozen water that covered over the earth(upon the face of the deep), that caused evertyhing to perished beneath the surface of what later God did in divided water.

[Tj3]

sndbay,

Much of what you have posted falls into the category of speculation, what might have been, but you have not addressed the points that I raise before regarding what scripture does say:

-----------------------

there are several issues with this theory.

- Death on earth started when sin entered the world. To suggest that there was death beforehand would be a denial of the gospel, and minimizing the importance of Jesus' defeat of death.

- Scripture is clear that creation from start to end took only six days - that includes heavens and earth. This is clear not just from Genesis but elsewhere in scripture:

Ex 20:11
11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.
NKJV

- There was no land prior to Gen 1:2

Gen 1:2-3
to the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
NKJV

Without land, the gap theory falls apart since those who promote the gap theory suggest that this explains what they believe to be age, fossils etc. of land animals and plants.

--------------------

I would be interested in what you have to say regarding these specific points.

[sndbay]

sndbay,

Much of what you have posted falls into the category of speculation, what might have been, but you have not addressed the points that I raise before regarding what scripture does say:

-----------------------

there are several issues with this theory.

- Death on earth started when sin entered the world. To suggest that there was death beforehand would be a denial of the gospel, and minimizing the importance of Jesus' defeat of death.

No take it further in depth, because I do not see life in flesh of man as scripture stated that would be in the image of God by the sixth day.. At this beginning man with spirit in = soul + flesh . And also able to speak words oral. (noting the importance of The Word then given to follow) the calling of God.

Death started just as the gospel says, because it starts from what was void and perished. Thus the world begins with flesh to communicate by Word, and in a called ability to listen to God, and answer that calling, and continue that calling.

(2 Peter 3:5-6 ) Creation in eternity past, to which all fossils and remains belong.

- Scripture is clear that creation from start to end took only six days - that includes heavens and earth. This is clear not just from Genesis but elsewhere in scripture:

Ex 20:11
11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.
NKJV

Yes at Genesis 1:3-5 began the light and dark first day .. Yes Genesis 1:6-8 was the creation of heaven as (firmament) .. Yes Genesis 1:9-13 was the water moved as being the surface opened of the water's deep to allow dry land of earth, then grass and fruit in growth of seed.

- There was no land prior to Gen 1:2

Gen 1:2-3
2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
NKJV

Without land, the gap theory falls apart since those who promote the gap theory suggest that this explains what they believe to be age, fossils etc., of land animals and plants.

--------------------

I would be interested in what you have to say regarding these specific points.

Earth and heaven ages are known to be 3. Which are we in now? Example each being 3 individuals in count, where did 1 started, and where is 3 ? Then where is the existance of satan begin?

[N0help4u]

I believe in the gap theory making the earth over the age of the creation.

[JoeCanada76]

I believe that there is a time gap between Gen. 1:1 and 1:3 that could have been of ANY length. Beginning with verse 3 we have the record of God re-creating life on this planet, and it would have been 6 literal days.

This accounts for all ancient fossils and does not show any evidence of Biblical error.

I may get flack from two sides on this, but it makes sense to me.

Never heard of the Gap theory before, but with any theory it is always a possibility.

[Tj3]

No take it further in depth, because I do not see life in flesh of man as scripture stated that would be in the image of God by the sixth day.. At this beginning man with spirit in = soul + flesh . And also able to speak words oral. (noting the importance of The Word then given to follow) the calling of God.

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Death started just as the gospel says, because it starts from what was void and perished. Thus the world begins with flesh to communicate by Word, and in a called ability to listen to God, and answer that calling, and continue that calling.

Death started when Adam and Eve sinned, according to the Bible.

Rom 5:14-15
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
NKJV

There are other [passages that state this also. To say that death started before that is to deny the gospel and God's word.

(2 Peter 3:5-6 ) Creation in eternity past, to which all fossils and remains belong.

2 Peter 3:5-7
5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.
NKJV

Agreed- the worldwide flood recorded in Genesis.

Yes at Genesis 1:3-5 began the light and dark first day.. Yes Genesis 1:6-8 was the creation of heaven as (firmament).. Yes Genesis 1:9-13 was the water moved as being the surface opened of the water's deep to allow dry land of earth, then grass and fruit in growth of seed.

You cannot alter meanings of words to make them fit a theory created by what you perceive to be silence of scripture regarding a gap.

Gen 1:1
1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
NKJV

So the heavens were created in verse 1. And throughout, including the reference that I gave from Exodus says that the entire time from creation of the heavens to the end of creation was 6 days. That starts at verse 1.

Earth and heaven ages are known to be 3

Scripture reference?

[galveston]

sndbay,

Much of what you have posted falls into the category of speculation, what might have been, but you have not addressed the points that I raise before regarding what scripture does say:

-----------------------

there are several issues with this theory.

- Death on earth started when sin entered the world. To suggest that there was death beforehand would be a denial of the gospel, and minimizing the importance of Jesus' defeat of death.

- Scripture is clear that creation from start to end took only six days - that includes heavens and earth. This is clear not just from Genesis but elsewhere in scripture:

Ex 20:11
11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.
NKJV

- There was no land prior to Gen 1:2

Gen 1:2-3
2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
NKJV

Without land, the gap theory falls apart since those who promote the gap theory suggest that this explains what they believe to be age, fossils etc., of land animals and plants.

--------------------

I would be interested in what you have to say regarding these specific points.

Well, you keep saying that there was no land mass prior to Gen. 1:2, and that may be so, but it is hard to prove.

Consider this word:
4390 male' (maw-lay');

or mala' (Esth. 7:5) (maw-law'); a primitive root, to fill or (intransitively) be full of, in a wide application (literally and figuratively):

KJV-- accomplish, confirm, + consecrate, be at an end, be expired, be fenced, fill, fulfil, (be, become, X draw, give in, go) full (-ly, -ly set, tale), [over-] flow, fulness, furnish, gather (selves, together), presume, replenish, satisfy, set, space, take a [hand-] full, + have wholly.

This was spoken to Adam and wouod seem to say that Adam was to fill the Earth again after it was destroyed.
We don't have to guess what it means because the same word is used again to Noah (Gen. 9:1) and there can be no doubt about what was to be done. The Earth was to be repopulated.

The thought is that Satan, before his rebellion and fall, ruled the Earth which was populated. That brought total destruction, affecting the heavens also.

If true, that would certainly explain the hatred that Satan has for mankind.

My point in advancing this is to show that there can never be a conflict between the Bible and science. There can only be conflict if scientific facts are misunderstood, or if the Bible is misunderstood. Science is, after all, only the search for facts.

[classyT]

Never heard of the Gap theory before, but with any theory it is always a possibility.

I grew up on the "gap" theory. It wasn't until I started going to a new church that I even heard of the earth being relatively young. I don't know>>... I admit. So I guess I will sit back and Listen... err I mean read.

[Tj3]

Well, you keep saying that there was no land mass prior to Gen. 1:2, and that may be so, but it is hard to prove.

Not hard to prove at all. Scripture says so:

Gen 1:1-10
1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. To the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. 3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 Then God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 Then God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so.
NKJV

Consider this word:
4390 male' (maw-lay');

or mala' (Esth. 7:5) (maw-law'); a primitive root, to fill or (intransitively) be full of, in a wide application (literally and figuratively):

KJV-- accomplish, confirm, + consecrate, be at an end, be expired, be fenced, fill, fulfil, (be, become, X draw, give in, go) full (-ly, -ly set, tale), [over-] flow, fulness, furnish, gather (selves, together), presume, replenish, satisfy, set, space, take a [hand-] full, + have wholly.

This was spoken to Adam and wouod seem to say that Adam was to fill the Earth again after it was destroyed.
We don't have to guess what it means because the same word is used again to Noah (Gen. 9:1) and there can be no doubt about what was to be done. The Earth was to be repopulated.

Notice that even your quoted definition say "to fill", so it would be hard to argue that it means that Adam was to re-fill the earth.

[sndbay]

Death started when Adam and Eve sinned, according to the Bible.

Rom 5:14-15
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
NKJV

There are other [passages that state this also. To say that death started before that is to deny the gospel and God's word.

Tom, In explaining sometimes we might not have the same meanings in our words used in the explanation. Perhaps first the meaning of death should be determined.

Death

1. Separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body

2. With the implied idea of future misery in hell, the power of death

3. Since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, region of thickest darkness

4. in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin

When reading the verse in Roman (Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses ) It is satan that reigned from Adam to Moses. Satan's ability to beguile man from the simplicity of Life . " Life or Death" "God or satan"

[sndbay]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The gap... Here is the suspected earth and heaven that was before what we acknowledge today.

The dinosours and an ape like beast that walked the earth. Yet as science proved by the new research released in DNA. The beast is unable to communicate by oral words. The brain did not hold that capability of speech.

Refer: The Language of God by Francis S Collins

Agree or not that is what I offer, in what could be some idea to what we have in evidence to this world being years older then is agreed upon.

***********
Genesis 1:2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The earth became without form and void, and darkness became upon the face of the deep.

Suspected destruction of an earth that was (gap frame of time) perished

Jeremiah speaks of perished, made void. We have nothing detectable because there is darkness of the deep of water. And the Spirit moved upon that water.

Think of it being all gone and what was, is now, unknown. The existence is gone, because satan and God had the shaken earth (Job 9:6)

Job 9:5 Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger.

Job 9:7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.

[Tj3]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The gap... Here is the suspected earth and heaven that was before what we acknowledge today.

The dinosours and an ape like beast that walked the earth. Yet as science proved by the new research released in DNA. The beast is unable to communicate by oral words. The brain did not hold that capability of speech.

Refer: The Language of God by Francis S Collins

Agree or not that is what I offer, in what could be some idea to what we have in evidence to this world being years older then is agreed upon.

***********
Genesis 1:2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The earth became without form and void, and darkness became upon the face of the deep.

Suspected destruction of an earth that was (gap frame of time) perished

Jeremiah speaks of perished, made void. We have nothing detectable because there is darkness of the deep of water. And the Spirit moved upon that water.

Think of it being all gone and what was, is now, unknown. The existence is gone, because satan and God had the shaken earth (Job 9:6)

Job 9:5 Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger.

Job 9:7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.

You can keep claiming that there is a gap, but scripture is clear that there is six days from the creation of the heavens and earth through to the end of creation.