[jammixmaster]

There have been many posts about if magic or spells exist or not so I've made a new post explaining it.

Magic is real. It works by raising, directing and releasing energy to obtain a goal. However, there are those who have tried to cast a spell before and it didn't work and they wonder why or they no longer believe in magic. There are several factors that could have not allowed their spell to work. The #1 reason is that because magic is pure energy, it works by "like attracting like". That means that if you cast a spell then start thinking that it might not work, then it won't. Why should it if you don't believe it? That's why more seasoned Witches have an old saying, which is "Set it and forget it". That means after you cast the spell to forget about it.

Anyway, magic does exist and it is all around us. I'm sure all of us at one point or another have been told "You can do anything you put your mind to". In a nut shell, that is the basis of magic, because magic must first begin in the mind and you must focus your mind on that intent before it becomes reality. Some call that "creative visualization". So yes, magic, spells, witchcraft, tarot cards, palm reading, astrology, summoning spirits, astral projection and all that jazz... it's all real. Any questions? :cool:

[sarnian]

Hello jammixmaster

Can you provide any scientific support for magic?
I mean any proof that magic has been tested in a scientific way for it's effects and power?

Your #1 reason is that because magic is pure energy : do you have any proof for that?

You stated 'anyway, magic does exist and it is all around us... "You can do anything you put your mind to".'
You mean that is your evidence?

You stated 'Any questions?'.
Yes I have : please support what you preach. Please provide the supporting evidence!

Of course you may believe that this is so, but claiming it to be a fact is incorrect until you proved it!

[jammixmaster]

No problem. I'm glad you asked. I'll start with your first question, of scientific proof. Science has already proven that magic is real because as stated before, magic is pure energy, and science has proven that energy exists (just go read any physics or chemistry book). As for your second question, I would have to delve more into psychology to give you a full answer but I'll try and simplify here. Magic begins in the mind because the mind is the center of all focusing... unless you can prove to me that you can focus on something with your foot then I guess we'll just have to stick with the mind. Science has already proven that you can use your mind to create change, that process of creating that change is called magic. Some people may call it "positive thinking" or whatever, but that's essentially how magic works. That's not to say that if you focus on becoming a billionaire that tomorrow you'd be one. There are other factors that come into play and it's too much to type here. As for proving it, I'm sure you've already proven it to yourself. I don't know your personally so I can't explain exactly how but I can give you some examples. If there has ever been a time in your life that you needed something or just wanted it really bad but had no way of getting it, then a few days later (or any time frame) out of nowhere the means for getting what you wanted or needed came. Science would call this a "coincidence". But we all know that a "coincidence" is just science's way of saying "I don't know how to explain that".

[NeedKarma]

Science has already proven that magic is real because as stated before, magic is pure energy, and science has proven that energy exists (just go read any physics or chemistry book).

You are mixing two things here. Yes science can prove that energy exists, no debate there. No it has not proven that magic is real. Can you post some papers on this subject?

[jammixmaster]

There are not many papers on the subject as most scholars choose just the one side... either magic or science. I did however find this:

Science vs. witchcraft

I'm not sure if its what you're looking for but it's the best I could find. BTW Needkarma, your display pic is awesome, that guy is like the new Billy Mays!

[XOXOlove]

jammixmaster can you do magic? If so how? I'm just curious

[vwdieseljunkie]

"Magic", explained by jammixmaster, is "pure energy". This thought is lost by many, as they try to rationalize it as though it were something tangible, like electricity. To further complicate any attempt to explain "magic", you have the problem provided by science fiction. I've heard the "if magic is real, then show me a green, wart-nosed woman in a black outfit flying around on a broom, or turn me into a toad. See! You can't do it, so it isn't real!" I personally have never flown without mechanical means, nor have I pulled a rabbit from any of the many hat's I own.

Magic is whatever you can convince your mind that it can be, so long as you understand that it's much more fantastic in your imagination, and normally quite boring in reality.

Most of what I've seen considered "magic", didn't really have anything "magical" about it. Our desire to mix emotion and belief into what we cannot explain intellectually, and the desire to be something more than what we appear to be, tends to throw things like "magic" out of proportion.

If you mix a base with an acid, a reaction occurs. For someone who has never experienced this before and doesn't understand the science behind the reaction, IT'S MAGIC! But, it's our imagination that makes it so, and our desire to believe in something fantastic. In reality, it's boring old predictable science. Many "spells" are found to be similar to this.

However, you still have the "pure energy" side of the "spell", such as the incantation, meditation, séance, astral-projection, etc. that is quite often chocked up to total BS by those without the desire to believe. These same people, more often than not, are the same that believe in the "power of prayer", yet do not make the connection between prayer and "energy projection". As far as I can tell, and this is my opinion, there is not much difference. You are projecting your personal energy, whether it be emotional or physical, whether you believe it is received by an omnipotent being and sent back down, or if there is no "middle man" in the process and you are in control, you are still doing it. How exactly the process works, is left up to the individual and their mind's eye, as there isn't a all-fitting practical explanation that I know of.

I find it easier to compare to that which is a fantastic piece of science fiction: Star Wars, and the "Force". It's a cooperation between you and your surroundings though a transference of energy. Can you reach out and make your light saber come to you? Well, there is a lot of science behind telekinesis, and it's the ability to affect matter with your mind, right? Moving salt shakers across the table, bending spoons... Sure, why not a light saber, lol. But the concept wasn't invented by the movies. Many of the Native American beliefs that I have read about, shared the belief that there was a "web" that connected all things. That everything from the soil to the sky was an inter-weaved, cooperative being. We get to participate in this form for a while, but will be returned to the earth to propagate another life. Does Disney's "the Lion King" song "the Circle of Life" ring a bell?

Now after you remove the science fiction from "the Force" and remember what you learned in middle-school science class, EVERYTHING ON EARTH is made of protons, neutrons, and electrons. Everything, even the rocks at the bottom of the river, the tree in your yard, the air you breath, and yes, even you, is composed of basically the same stuff. What defines the rock from the tree, is the composition and order in which these things are arranged. Granted, I'm no scientist or professor, and my comparisons probably suck, but you get the idea, I hope.

But here I am, coming full circle, and beginning to try to explain how "magic" and "pure energy", is, in a way, electricity. Without electricity, our synapses don't fire, our thoughts don't form, our heart doesn't beat. We might as well be a rock or a tree. It's the attraction and repulsion, the cooperation of the electrons and protons of the elements that make up the forms we keep. This electricity, this "pure energy" or "magic", is in us all. How you rationalize what it is, and what you can or cannot do with it, is reliant solely upon your desire to accept the form or fashion in which it exists. How this is projected, I do not pretend to understand, but I can believe that we possess the ability to do so, whether in the form of prayer, as a spell, or in any other flavor you choose. We know there's something to it, though we can't reach out and touch it, and we all long for an explanation that we can understand, but it's just out of reach.

Ok, I'm burned out, it's been a long day, hopefully someone can help make sense of what I think I was trying to say with all this, and that maybe some part of what I have said here can be helpful to the discussion. I hope.

[sarnian]

.... scientific proof. Science has already proven that magic is real because as stated before, magic is pure energy, and science has proven that energy exists (just go read any physics or chemistry book).

Yes, science proved that energy exists. But you still have to prove that magic is pure energy.

.... Magic begins in the mind because the mind is the center of all focusing.......unless you can prove to me that you can focus on something with your foot then I guess we'll just have to stick with the mind. Science has already proven that you can use your mind to create change, that process of creating that change is called magic.

Sure, magic can begin in the mind. But there are limits. You stated "You can do anything you put your mind to". But that is not true. There are limits. You can imagine many things in your mind, but that does not ensure that whatever you imagine is real or can be done. So prove that you can literally do anything you put your mind to, or accept that this is no support for your magic claim.

.... There are other factors that come into play and it's too much to type here.

How conveniant. But I have all the time, so go ahead : post these factors, of course supported by valid evidence.

.... As for proving it, i'm sure you've already proven it to yourself. I don't know your personally so I can't explain exactly how but I can give you some examples. If there has ever been a time in your life that you needed something or just wanted it really bad but had no way of getting it, then a few days later (or any time frame) out of nowhere the means for getting what you wanted or needed came. Science would call this a "coincidence".

Science would call this a non-answer. Of course there is coincidence. But that has nothing to do with 'real magic', and nothing with 'You can do anything you put your mind to'. Please keep to the subject and the point I made. Prove that 'You can do anything you put your mind to'. Or accept that there is no support for this claim.

Note : you have not in any way supported so far your claim that magic is real.
You introduced a lot of 'red herrings' in response to my previous post, but I like to keep focused in your own topic on your own question 'Is magic real?' and your own statement "Magic is real". I asked you to support that statement. But I am still waiting.

Again : of course you may believe that magic is real, but claiming it as fact is incorrect until you have proved it!

[sarnian]

I've heard the "if magic is real, then show me a green, wart-nosed woman in a black outfit flying around on a broom, or turn me into a toad.

You may have heard that, but in this topic all that was asked was to provide valid support for the claim "magic is real". So far I am still waiting.

[mastermagican]

Magic is real if you think it is. For example you never heard of eletricty and one day david blaine came up fliped a swicth and a light came on then you would belife it was magic

[vwdieseljunkie]

So far I am still waiting.

Yeah, well, I am also still waiting for proof that there is a god. Does my disbelief in a vengeful, omnipotent, omnipresent entity have anything to do with whether one exists? No. That is why I made the comparison to prayer and incantation. Though through belief, neither has anything to do with the other, yet they are both the same in my opinion.

But, you are right sarnian, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. So magic does not exist because I can't make your keyboard fly off your desk while you type, unless I was there with you to yank on the cord. But that's OK with me.

As someone who has spent a great deal of time in the company of practicing Wiccans (and other various paganistic beliefs that "use magic"), I had learned to keep my mouth shut and my eyes open, and not make it too obvious that I've got my tongue in my cheek and often trying not to smile, or worse, laugh. This is as serious to those who believe in magic as prayer is to a Christian.

I can make water burn, hell I can make water expload VIOLENTLY. It's not magic to me, it's provable, tangible, boring old science. But to watch the eyes of those who witness me do it, even after explaining what the reaction was, you could see that it was still magic to them. It was extraordinary.

The argument against magic is like the argument against religion. Until the omnipotent one comes home, or someone turns you into a toad, we are left only to believe what we choose. It's the inability to positively disprove the actual existence of either, that keeps it believable to the individual.

Am I making any sense?

[XOXOlove]

I guess it kind of makes more sense now, but how do you do it?

And even if I could do magic I think I would still believe in god.

Don't wiccans believe in god(s)?

[excon]

.....it's all real. Any questions? :cool:

Hello j:

I cannot imagine living in a world where a goblin is waiting around the corner to pounce, or where Satan is ALWAYS trying to make you do stuff, or where a white haired guy in the sky is telling you not to listen, or where your car might disappear because a magician made it so...

Nope, I cannot imagine it. It would actually be quite scary knowing that you don't have control over your life. How do you folks get through the day?

excon

[vwdieseljunkie]

i guess it kind of makes more sense now, but how do you do it?

and even if i could do magic i think i would still believe in god.

don't wiccans believe in god(s)?

I was using faith in god as an example of belief in something that can not be physically disproven, and yes wiccans believe in god/gods/goddesses. As far as "how do you do it", as far as I can tell, it is up to the individual as what you feel that works for you may not work for others. The imigination plays a big role here. Mental visualization of things that cannot be seen with the eyes. It is the projection of thought, energy, whatever you want to call it. I don't know for sure if you can bend a spoon or move something with your mind, or even if you can have any actual effect on your surroundings, but that's not to say that you can't believe that you can.

Much of what I can agree with is more of the ability to effect yourself. I believe we are more than we seem. From the thought that we only use a small portion of our brain, what our mind does when we are asleep, and what we are capable of if we focus ourselves.

[XOXOlove]

So it's like having telekineses?

[vwdieseljunkie]

I think I may be able to provide an example of sorts to help explain the idea I am trying to get across...

There was a young lady that had cut herself in the kitchen while cutting up herbs. It wasn't a really bad cut, but there was blood, and she was in pain. Her aunt, and self-professed "witch", began a "spell" to stop the pain and help with healing. It involved moving her hands around in a certain way over the injury, and saying some choice incantation, and the young lady said that the pain was going away and that it didn't hurt anymore, and it was accredited to the "spell".

Was it in fact magic that stopped the pain? Or was it simply that the young lady believed that the "spell" was having an effect, and thus made her body ignore, or at least lessen the acknowledgment of the pain.

By the time all of this had transpired, the blood at the injury had clotted (like it's supposed to) and the bleeding had stopped. Not magic by any means, it's our natural biology doing what it does, but it happened to take place at the right time.

What made it magic may have been nothing more than psychology, and the ability for the young lady to manage her own pain, through the suggestion that the "spell" would work.

[sarnian]

magic is real if you think it is.

I already mentioned that. That approach is called BELIEF.

[sarnian]

... So magic does not exist because I can't make your keyboard fly off your desk while you type, unless I was there with you to yank on the cord. But that's ok with me.

No, that is incorrect : I never stated that as supposed evidence. You did.
I simply asked : please provide evidence for the claim 'magic is real'.
Still I have not seen any evidence for that.

... I can make water burn, hell I can make water expload VIOLENTLY.

Empty words, just wild claims. Please provide EVIDENCE that you can do that.

... The argument against magic is like the argument against religion.

I have no argument against magic, nor against religion. I have an argument against people making wild claims which they can not back-up with evidence.

... Am I making any sense?

No.

[XOXOlove]

Where does the energy that you use to do magic come from. It can't just come out of nowhere. That's the part I don't get.

[jammixmaster]

jammixmaster can you do magic? if so how? im just curious

Of course I can do magic! I'm a Wiccan Priest. Now if you're talking about turning people into frogs or levitating then I suggest you stick with Charmed or Buffy The Vampire Slayer, they are the only Witches that can WOW you with TV magic. As for the "how" of my magic, as stated in previous posts its too hard to explain here. I suggest you buy a book on the subject or download one from a torrent.