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bamatbucket · Mar 17, 2009, 07:32 AM

I have 3/4" copper water supply line that enters my house through the basement wall, makes a 90-degree turn and runs for a short distance horizontally, makes another 90 and goes vertical for a short distance, then through another 90 to horizontal where it goes through a pressure reducing regulator and then vertical again. It was connected this way by a plumber when I had the old galvanized supply line from the meter to the house replaced with copper. He connected the new copper to my existing galvanized in the house the best way he could because someone else (not me) had already cobbled up the old piping. I am in the process of replacing all the old galvanized with copper, and I would like to simplify the zig-zag configuration described above. I would go vertical through the first 90, into the regulator, and on from there. This would involve rotating the first el 90-degrees so it would run vertically rather than horizontally. Can I just heat the fitting and rotate it or should I remove it and resolder a new one in place? If I remove it, will the old solder on the pipe help to tin it when soldering the new fitting or should I try to remove it? If I can heat it and rotate it, should I try to sweat more solder into it? No matter what I do, I could have a major problem drying out the pipe out because it runs about 75 feet from the meter downhill into the basement. The best answer may be to leave the zig-zag as is (it doesn't leak) and connect the new pipe to it.

Milo Dolezal · Mar 17, 2009, 07:44 AM

You have to drain all water from that pipe before you try to solder. If any water is present, solder will not enter the fitting.

In some cases, you can heat up old fitting, turn it, and reapply more solder. But I would suggest to remove it, maybe even cut of couple of inches of pipe, clean the end, reapply flux and solder in new fitting.

90 Ells in your system inhibit water flow as well as create more friction. Therefore, use as few 90s as possible. It is always good idea to simplify your plumbing system. Run pipe directly from one point to another one.

speedball1 · Mar 17, 2009, 07:47 AM

I could have a major problem drying out the pipe out because it runs about 75 feet from the meter downhill into the basement

if you don't think you can dry out the pipe then don't attempt to solder. If the pipes can be dried out the umsolder the old ell and pull it off, now take a rag and wipe the melted solder off from the end of the pipe. The pipe is now tinned and a new ell can be soldered on. Good luck, Tom

KISS · Mar 17, 2009, 07:56 AM

Running downhill isn't a major problem, but the shutoff has to work.

Rotating ususlly doesn't work unless the fittings were recently sweated.

Remove the fitting. Stuff a piece of bread in the pipe. It wll stop the few trickles of water.

In this case, I would recommend:

Heat the pipe coming out of the wall and wipe with a damp rag.

Prepare a new elbow. Wire brush/flux and heat and pre-tin. Wipe with a damp rag.

Now make sure the fittings will fit. Sand lightly, if they will not.

Flux, heat and install.

You may also need a heat shield. My favorite is one from SmallParts.com: The Hardware Store for Researchers and Developers.

My dad did all of his fittings by pre-tinning and that's how I learned from pop. Not any more except when re-using old fittings.

bamatbucket · Mar 18, 2009, 06:11 AM

I appreciate the suggestions. The answers confirmed what I had expected regarding not trying to rotate the fitting. I will try to remove the old fitting and solder a new one on. I have been getting more comfortable with sweat soldering as I have progressed with my copper pipe replacement project and haven't had a single one leak yet - maybe a combination of dumb luck and following the basic rules of good cleaning, using tinning flux, and proper heat application. I don't have enough room to cut the end off the supply pipe because it goes into the first 90 right as it comes through the wall. I have purchased some plumber's bread at Lowe's for jobs like this, but haven't used it yet because all my work up to now has been on new lines that have never had water in them. My plan for this job would be to shut the water off at the meter, drain the line, let it air dry, use compressed air or my shop vac if further drying is needed, and stuff some of the plumbers bread into the end in case there is still some trickling. I understand how the old solder on the pipe would tin it, but I don't know how to tin the inside of the new fitting. My backup plan in case I can't get the new fitting properly soldered is to use a Gator Bite fitting. I would prefer to install the soldered fitting but must complete the job in the course of one day or we won't have any water into the house.

KISS · Mar 18, 2009, 08:35 AM

It will take some practice because it's not commonly done.

Prepare and flux. You;ll have that fitting held with a pair of plyers over my favorite spot, a laundry tub.

Keep the opening facing down and sort of chase a bead along the top edge. When you have most of it coated. Shake out the excess solder.

Re-heat the fitting and stuff a rag with some sort of something to hold it. A 1/2' brush with a wet rag in a 3/4 hole works.

Tinning the pipe side should be cake.

bamatbucket · Mar 18, 2009, 11:55 AM

I'll try to tin the new el as you describe, since it will probably increase the chance of not having any leaks. As Speedball says, there will be some solder on the end of the pipe that will tin it after the old fitting is removed.

KISS · Mar 18, 2009, 12:39 PM

Once you manage to get it tinned it really doesn't have to fit on the pipe. You can heat the fitting and the pipe while trying to place it.

Tinning both, does just that. It decreases the probablility of a leak in my opinion.

You only have to tin the one end.

iamgrowler · Mar 18, 2009, 08:26 PM

The only real problem I see with applying new solder to an older soldered joint is the probability of dissimilar compounds/elements in the solder.

Anything pre-1985 is likely to have been soldered with 50/50 solder -- Whereas anything post-1985 is likely to have been soldered with 95/5 solder.

The antimony content of 95/5 solder will not bond that well with the high lead content of 50/50 solder.

>shrugs<

Just my two pence.

KISS · Mar 18, 2009, 08:36 PM

Growler, you have a good point. It just means you have to sand a little more. i.e. remove most of the old material. It will sand off nicely.

bamatbucket · Mar 19, 2009, 08:00 AM

Good call, Growler. The solder in the joint should be 95/5 currently approved for potable water lines because the installation was made about 14 years ago. I assume (hope) the professional plumber who did the work would have used the correct solder. He did use a copper male threaded fitting rather than a dielectric fitting to connect from the new copper supply line to the old galvanized line, but I guess that is legal even though I thought it was a bad practice. I'll be using copper to brass (valves & pressure regulator) when I rework the connection. I was under the impression that copper to brass does not result in electrolysis - is that correct?

Milo Dolezal · Mar 19, 2009, 08:05 AM

Yes, copper to brass is fine. However, copper to galvanized is bad connection...

KISS · Mar 19, 2009, 10:58 AM

Brass is an alloy of copper.

bamatbucket · Mar 19, 2009, 11:39 AM

Thanks for the info.

iamgrowler · Mar 19, 2009, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by KeepItSimpleStupid

Brass is an alloy of copper.

It most definitely is, KISS, yet it is an approved material for transitions from copper to galvanized piping -- Go figger.

When making a transition from copper tubing to galvanized piping, being a stickler for code compliance, I always consider the application.

Most of the adopted codes expressly forbid the concealment of unions or shutoffs (gate valves ball valves etc); So if the transition is to be covered by drywall or flooring, I make the transition with a brass coupling or brass nipple and copper male/female adapter.

OTOH, if the transition is exposed and accessible (crawlspace or unfinished ceiling in a basement, for instance); I'll use a dielectric union.

But the use of dielectric unions presents yet another problem -- Mainly maintaining the continuity of the homes electrical grounding/bonding system.

In short; I make it a point to carry bonding clamps and lengths of bared copper wire to bridge the gap between dielectric union transitions.

I know, I'm a fussy old fart -- But the 9PM calls kvetching about lost phone/internet/cable service dropped to zero after I instituted the policy.