 |
|
| Browse | Ask | Answer | Search | Join/Login |
|
|
||||
|
When did the Redemption begin and.
Did Christ die to redeem Creation or just man?
|
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Hi, Joe, Akoue, Jakester and all who participated in the Romans 8 thread. I am in agreement with Joe that the Redemption began as soon as Adam fell. The ProtoEvangelium (Genesis 3:15) already foretells the coming of the Messiah in the very beginning. And, in my opinion, it is Jesus' mission to redeem all Creation. But man is different than the rest of known Creation. (Except for the Angels) We are the only ones who can worship God and thus know our Creator. Therefore it is difficult for me to believe that animals know "true" love. God is love and if animals can't know God, how can they know love? As I'm thinking about it, when Jesus became man, He entered Creation and became a creature. He did not thereby cease to be the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. If He had, then Mary would not be the Mother of God. I am very anxious to hear more about the glorified body. Sincerely, De Maria |
||||
|
|
|
||||
 Originally Posted by De Maria
|
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Therefore it is difficult for me to believe that animals know "true" love. God is love and if animals can't know God, how can they know love?
With the exception of a parents love for his child, it is the only unconditional love I know. They don't need to "know" God because they are of God. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
De Maria:
Below I answered your question with an opinion, but I think I failed to offer sufficient support for that opinion. I hope you do appreciate that I got a headache trying to find the necessary intellect! In fact, I think my frontal lobe had a meltdown – well it would have if I had one to start with! Originally Posted by De Maria
It was the characteristics of rationality that caused all the trouble in Eden. Man, (I'd like to add, “because of Woman” – but I dare not) erred by eating the fruit of the forbidden tree. Thus, God's Justice brought death to mankind. God in his infinite love for his creation provided a means of redemption. Originally Posted by De Maria
This does not say that animals can't exist in heaven. Originally Posted by De Maria
Considering all the above, the language in Romans 8, “Sons of God” or “Children of God” seems more tenable in that it implies a redemption that brings man in harmony with God's Creation without out actually consuming or incorporating into the essence of God. It seems to me that to say otherwise, would be to say that man can 'transcend' his current condition of his own wherewithal. You and Akoue convinced me that animals had souls – something I didn't previously believe. SO NOW you have the responsibility to expose any errors in my logic here; such correction would be appreciated. JoeT |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
DeMaria,
I agree with Joe to some extent on this. But mankind has three parts, body, mind and spirit (which I believe is our soul). We can not exist as mortals without those three parts. Animals have those three parts although they are different than man. How about plants? Do they have three parts? They have life, body and?? About the glorified body... Jesus had His after he rose from the dead. Note what he could do with it. He could walk through walls, eat food, appear and disappear, appear differently so He was not recognized, He could be felt by others, He could speak, walk, break bread, appear instantly miles way, and he could ascend. I believe those who are saved and in heaven will have bodies similar to what Jesus now has. Peace and kindness, Fred |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
I believe those who are saved and in heaven will have bodies similar to what Jesus now has.
Peace and kindness, Fred Are you talking about fleshey bodies that have to be fed, groomed, rested, have traits like blond hair, brown hair, short , tall etc. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by cozyk
It lacks any of the strings attached that most humans have for each other.
With the exception of a parents love for his child, it is the only unconditional love I know.
They don't need to "know" God because they are of God.
Yet, apparently you don't believe that all can have unconditional love. So, what is so special about one particular dog? And do other animals share that trait? Which ones? Cats, dogs, lizards, insects? Or are humans the only ones that don't have unconditional love (except in the case of mothers and their children)? |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Are you talking about fleshey bodies that have to be fed, groomed, rested, have traits like blond hair, brown hair, short , tall etc. [/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure he means a glorified body. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Quite a bit to think about and very well expressed. I hope I can do it justice.
Yes, I agree. Man is different from all the other creatures in God’s Creation, including the Angles. Paraphrasing St. Thomas, the essence of man consists of two parts, body and soul; the Body obeying natural laws and the soul obeying spiritual laws. It’s my opinion that man is not whole without both parts; the body cannot live without the soul, and the soul is lost without the body. The only thing we can say of the essence of the soul is that it is spiritual, whereas the essence of the body can be determined by its corporeal nature. Man’s soul is said to be rational, moving the intellect and animates the body. Furthermore, it is said that man’s soul is the only rational soul in Creation. Angles do not have bodies or rationality; many consider angles less than man, although being God’s ministers they are considered less because of this lack rationality.
So, please provide a reference for that idea.
It was the characteristics of rationality that caused all the trouble in Eden. Man, (I'd like to add, “because of Woman” – but I dare not)
erred by eating the fruit of the forbidden tree. Thus, God's Justice brought death to mankind. God in his infinite love for his creation provided a means of redemption.
I would only change one word. "erred" implies that it was not intentional. And therefore not a sin. So I would say that Adam intentionally sinned. In my opinion, this was the first "mortal" sin. And caused death of the soul. A simple error would not suffice for this. Adam, in committing this sin, INTENTIONALLY turned away from God and somehow indulged in selfish desires. Thus committing the first mortal sin.
The animal's soul animates the body of the beast, however it is said to be irrational.
Furthermore, the soul of the animal operates in the realm of instinct. To sin requires cooperation with evil, and being that animals have an irrational soul, they cannot sin. Thus, they have no need for redemption; remaining in perfect harmony with the Creator.
Remember that Satan is considered the "prince of this world". He it is who has enslaved this world and caused the chaotic (read "random") elements which cause pain and suffering in the world. Although animals and nature function, for the most part, in the way which God intended. Their nature has also been impaired by Satan who can now affect them and use them to punish, tempt and enslave humanity in sin.
This does not say that animals can’t exist in heaven.
Without getting too technical and hopefully without getting too basic, in my opinion, heaven is being lovingly united to God for eternity and understanding with one's heart, mind and soul that this is so. Now, according to how I understand the attribute of Divine Omnipresence, we are even now in God's presence. Yet we don't call this heaven. What's the difference? God loves us doesn't He? But we don't love God as we ought. We are still encumbered by selfish attachments to other things which are not God. You and I are both Catholic and believe in purgatory. According to my understanding of Divine Omnipresence, God is present in purgatory also. Yet, we don't call purgatory, heaven. Why? Again, God loves them, but their love is still being perfected. Their love is still being purified of selfish attachments. How about hell? Well, according to my understanding of Omnipresence, God is also present in Hell. And God also loves them. But they don't love God. They resent His love for them and want nothing but to escape from God's presence. But this is impossible. God is OMNIPRESENT. Where ever we go, He is there. Well, how about animals? Do they understand that they have a Creator? I doubt it. Although they will be free of suffering when they die, they won't know why. They will be eternally blissful. Eternally happy. But they will never praise their Creator intentionally. At least, that is my opinion. No one can know these things absolutely but God.
I’m really winging it here, and this is solely my opinion. It seems to me that the primary objection to the argument that ‘Christ redeems all Creation’ is that all of Creation, except man, is already in harmony with God, perfect in accordance with God’s will.
Only man has fallen, presumably because he has rationalization which gives him the unenviable propensity for sin.
Thus, man finds himself in need of redemption to re-establish the harmony of Creation. And too, saying God redeems his Creation is to say Creation was not made good in the eyes of the Creator; which we know not to be true. All things created by God were made good and pronounced good by God. (honest I’m not trying to be funny, It sounds like doubletalk, but I can’t figure a better way to say it.)
Apocalypse 12 7 And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels: 8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: because the accuser of our brethren is cast forth, who accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of the testimony, and they loved not their lives unto death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you that dwell therein. Woe to the earth, and to the sea, because the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.
Considering all the above, the language in Romans 8, “Sons of God” or “Children of God” seems more tenable in that it implies a redemption that brings man in harmony with God’s Creation without out actually consuming or incorporating into the essence of God. It seems to me that to say otherwise, would be to say that man can ‘transcend’ his current condition of his own wherewithal.
And this does seem to be the case. I believe both St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas used the metaphor of the "iron in the fire" which blazed so hot as to be indistinguishable from the fire.
You and Akoue convinced me that animals had souls – something I didn’t previously believe. SO NOW you have the responsibility to expose any errors in my logic here; such correction would be appreciated.
JoeT
|
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by De Maria
Aggression toward me, he gets defensive. When I go out of town, my husband says he doesn't eat, and lays around in a depressed mopey mood. Often times he will not come out from under the bed. I have friends that have a relationship with their dogs just as devoted as mine.
Such as?
How do you measure love? How do you know that this dog has unconditional love for you?
Yet, apparently you don't believe that all can have unconditional love. So, what is so special about one particular dog?
And do other animals share that trait?
Which ones? Cats, dogs, lizards, insects? Or are humans the only ones that don't have unconditional love (except in the case of mothers and their children)?
|
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by cozyk
You might consider reading up on dog psychology. Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Leader of the Pack Be the leader of your pack! Welcome to Cesar Millan's Official Web Site Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Leader of the Pack If you love your dog, as much as you think he loves you, you owe it to him to learn how to raise a well balanced pet. I know, I know, the subject matter seems way off topic. We've been discussing whether animals can truly feel love. Back to the subject. As I said in my opening statement, based on what you've described, I don't believe this animal feels love towards you but possession. He displays the symptoms of a spoiled dog who is accustomed to getting whatever he wants when you are around. That is why he is so unhappy when you are gone. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
In regard to who is created greater men or angels consider this.
Psalms 8 1. O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is thy name in all the earth! Thou whose glory above the heavens is chanted 2. by the mouth of babes and infants, thou hast founded a bulwark because of thy foes, to still the enemy and the avenger. 3. When I look at thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars which thou hast established; 4. what is man that thou art mindful of him, and the son of man that thou dost care for him? 5. Yet thou hast made him little less than God, and dost crown him with glory and honor. 6. Thou hast given him dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet, 7. all sheep and oxen, and also the beasts of the field, 8. the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, whatever passes along the paths of the sea. 9. O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is thy name in all the earth! To the choirmaster: according to Muth-labben. A Psalm of David. Peace and kindness, Fred |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by arcura
Psalms 8 6 Thou hast made him a little less than the angels, thou hast crowned him with glory and honour: |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by De Maria
Originally Posted by De Maria
Originally Posted by De Maria
Originally Posted by De Maria
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Angles do not have bodies or rationality; many consider angles less than man, although being God's ministers they are considered less because of this lack rationality.
Originally Posted by De Maria
My thrust was that Angles were less than man in the ordering of species. Note, further, that what in the case of man is death is a fall in the case of angels. For after the fall there is no possibility of repentance for them, just as after death there is for men no repentance . St. John Damascene, An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith Book II, 4. St. John of Damascus notes of preeminence of man over angel which helps explain the teaching of man's superiority of man over Angel in Hebrews. "Being made [man]so much better than the angels as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they I" (Heb 1:4). And, if we compare the meanings of Psalm 8, and Hebrews 2:6-8 we see that what is being meant in Hebrews is that Christ, the Son of Man is brought lower than the Angels, for a time, so that His sacrifice glorifies God and Himself all the more.
What is heaven?
Pope John Paul II taught, Heaven as the fullness of communion with God was the theme of the Holy Father's catechesis at the General Audience of 21 July 1999. Heaven "is neither an abstraction not a physical place in the clouds, but a living, personal relationship with the Holy Trinity. It is our meeting with the Father which takes place in the risen Chrsit through the communion of the Holy Spirit," the Pope said. When the form of this world has passed away, those who have welcomed God into their lives and have sincerely opened themselves to his love, at least at the moment of death, will enjoy that fullness of communion with God which is the goal of human life. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches, "this perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed is called "heaven'. Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfilment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness" (n.1024). Today we will try to understand the biblical meaning of "heaven", in order to have a better understanding of the reality to which this expression refers. In biblical language "heaven"", when it is joined to the "earth", indicates part of the universe. Scripture says about creation: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Gn 1:1). Heaven is the transcendent dwelling-place of the living God Metaphorically speaking, heaven is understood as the dwelling-place of God, who is thus distinguished from human beings (cf. Ps 104:2f.; 115:16; Is 66:1). He sees and judges from the heights of heaven (cf. Ps 113:4-9) and comes down when he is called upon (cf. Ps 18:9, 10; 144:5). However the biblical metaphor makes it clear that God does not identify himself with heaven, nor can he be contained in it (cf. 1 Kgs 8:27); and this is true, even though in some passages of the First Book of the Maccabees "Heaven" is simply one of God's names (1 Mc 3:18, 19, 50, 60; 4:24, 55). The depiction of heaven as the transcendent dwelling-place of the living God is joined with that of the place to which believers, through grace, can also ascend, as we see in the Old Testament accounts of Enoch (cf. Gn 5:24) and Elijah (cf. 2 Kgs 2:11). Thus heaven becomes an image of life in God. In this sense Jesus speaks of a "reward in heaven" (Mt 5:12) and urges people to "lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven" (ibid., 6:20; cf. 19:21). The New Testament amplifies the idea of heaven in relation to the mystery of Christ. To show that the Redeemer's sacrifice acquires perfect and definitive value, the Letter to the Hebrews says that Jesus "passed through the heavens" (Heb 4:14), and "entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself" (ibid., 9:24). Since believers are loved in a special way by the Father, they are raised with Christ and made citizens of heaven. It is worthwhile listening to what the Apostle Paul tells us about this in a very powerful text: "God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus" (Eph 2:4-7). The fatherhood of God, who is rich in mercy, is experienced by creatures through the love of God's crucified and risen Son, who sits in heaven on the right hand of the Father as Lord. After the course of our earthly life, participation in complete intimacy with the Father thus comes through our insertion into Christ's paschal mystery. St Paul emphasizes our meeting with Christ in heaven at the end of time with a vivid spatial image: "Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thes 4:17-18). Sacramental life is anticipation of heaven In the context of Revelation, we know that the "heaven" or "happiness" in which we will find ourselves is neither an abstraction nor a physical place in the clouds, but a living, personal relationship with the Holy Trinity. It is our meeting with the Father which takes place in the risen Christ through the communion of the Holy Spirit. It is always necessary to maintain a certain restraint in describing these "ultimate realities" since their depiction is always unsatisfactory. Today, personalist language is better suited to describing the state of happiness and peace we will enjoy in our definitive communion with God. The Catechism of the Catholic Church sums up the Church's teaching on this truth: "By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has "opened' heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ" (n. 1026). 5. This final state, however, can be anticipated in some way today in sacramental life, whose centre is the Eucharist, and in the gift of self through fraternal charity. If we are able to enjoy properly the good things that the Lord showers upon us every day, we will already have begun to experience that joy and peace which one day will be completely ours. We know that on this earth everything is subject to limits, but the thought of the "ultimate" realities helps us to live better the "penultimate" realities. We know that as we pass through this world we are called to seek "the things that are above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God" (Col 3:1), in order to be with him in the eschatological fulfilment, when the Spirit will fully reconcile with the Father "all things, whether on earth or in heaven" (Col 1:20). Sorry for the length of the quote, I just think John Paul II was an excellent teacher in some respects. JoeT |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I’m doing my taxes so I’m expecting an epileptic breakdown just any minute! So, I’ll only answer what I can now and save the rest for later.
My thrust was that Angles were less than man in the ordering of species.
Note, further, that what in the case of man is death is a fall in the case of angels. For after the fall there is no possibility of repentance for them, just as after death there is for men no repentance . St. John Damascene, An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith Book II, 4.
Angels are spirits. Sin is spiritual death. Therefore, for Angels, sin is death. Another definition of sin is separation from God. Because the spiritual world is timeless, being in eternity. The Angels had one chance to choose, God or self. Those who chose self, essentially chose separation from God for eternity. We are not pure spirit. We are body and spirit. Souls. And we live in time. Therefore, we live in a different dimension. We live in the physical world. If we commit sin in this dimension, it does not automatically kill our spirit. Perhaps, somehow, our physical body is a buffer. We get a chance to repent from sin and save our lives.
St. John of Damascus notes of preeminence of man over angel which helps explain the teaching of man’s superiority of man over Angel in Hebrews.
"Being made [man]so much better than the angels as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they I" (Heb 1:4). And, if we compare the meanings of Psalm 8, and Hebrews 2:6-8 we see that what is being meant in Hebrews is that Christ, the Son of Man is brought lower than the Angels, for a time, so that His sacrifice glorifies God and Himself all the more. 6 But one in a certain place hath testified, saying: What is man, that thou art mindful of him: or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels: thou hast crowned him with glory and honour, and hast set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast subjected all things under his feet. For in that he hath subjected all things to him, he left nothing not subject to him. But now we see not as yet all things subject to him. And we see that this is in reference to Jesus: 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour: that, through the grace of God, he might taste death for all. 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, who had brought many children into glory, to perfect the author of their salvation, by his passion. So, although, members of the Church will be divinized, deified, because we will be sons in the Son, members of the body of Christ and are raised to a status higher than the angels because of our union with Christ. We were not thus created.
... Sorry for the length of the quote, I just think John Paul II was an excellent teacher in some respects.
|
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
During a sanity-break from taxes, it occurred to me to look up what St. John Damascene might have to say about heaven. I’ll just post a link this time. See Chapter 6.- It seems to lean toward your rendition of ‘heaven’; at least in part.
CHURCH FATHERS: An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, Book II (John of Damascus) JoeT |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Joe,
'Thanks much for all pf that. Fred |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Romans 8, 19-23
Everything, God made is waiting with excitement for God to show his children's Glory completely. Every thing God made was changed to become useless, not by its own Wish but because God wanted it, and because all along there was this hope, that everything God made would be set free from ruin to have the freedom and glory that belongs to God's children. We know that everything God made has been waiting until now in pain, Like a woman ready to give birth. Not only the world but we also have been waiting with pain inside us. We have the spirit as the first part of God's promise . So we are waiting for God to finish making us His own children, which means our bodies will be made free. (New Century Version) This tells me all creation will be set free. It makes sense to me. Maggie 3 |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Magie3.
You posted this, "Every thing God made was changed to become useless, not by its own wish but because God wanted it" I very much disagree. The soil and water still are useful to feed God's children The plants and trees are still very useful for food, medicines, and for building homes, furniture, and other uses. The animals are still useful for food, clothing, and other uses. The Holy Bible is still the most useful book ever published. Peace and kindness, Fred |
||||
|
|
Not your question?
Ask your question
View similar questions
| Question Tools | Search this Question |
Check out some similar questions!
Strawman Redemption
[ 7 Answers ]
Hello, How does one go about redeeming his strawman? Does anyone have the details on how to capture him by recording it's name through your Secretary of State. What exactly does this accomplish? Ar there any good sites someone can refer me to that provide detailed info. On how to maneuver...
B&W Coupon Redemption
[ 3 Answers ]
Does anyone know of a collector interested in buying about 3,000 coupons?
E-rewards redemption
[ 3 Answers ]
Can anyone tell me how the e-rewards for on-line surveys works ? I am retired by a disability and take a lot of these surveys. I have nearly $ 100 in e-rewards accumulated, but have no clue as to how to redeem these and what I can get. I know Borders is affiliated and Omaha Steaks. I really like to...
View more questions Search
|
