[Ilovethemountains]

Hello – I am new to this forum, and feel very confused. I first met my wife in 1997, on the Internet. We were both 35 at the time. I had just ended a two year relationship that was very emotionally intense, but also quite volatile. I dated no one for 3 months before meeting my current wife. When we first met in person, I found her to be an attractive, average sized woman, with a good stable job, her own home, and fairly average in most ways. But I did not “fall in love.” She was a good companion, but there was never a “spark” or a sense of passion. She was a good friend. We dated for over a year, but she wanted more. She had never been married (was married briefly in the mid-80’s), and really wanted this. I did not feel “in love”, but wasn’t sure if this was a requirement for marriage. I did care about her and wanted her to be happy, just no real passion. I talked with friends, and they said that “falling in love” was just a physical sensation, that true love would take time and effort on both of our parts, and would occur over time. I also reviewed my past relationship history, and it was easy to see that, in every relationship where I had felt in love I always eventually was very hurt by the actions of these women. Because of all of this, I agreed to marry my girlfriend.
In less than a year, I regretted this decision. First of all, all of the activities we had done together while dating, which generally revolved around my interests, she decided she didn’t like doing, so she stopped. She had no apparent interests other than watching television, which I personally don’t much like. Secondly, within the first year of our marriage, she gained over 100 pounds, and I no longer had any attraction to her. I didn’t want to touch her, and felt uncomfortable when she touched me. Finally, her personality changed. She became very moody, resentful, negative, and defensive. She isolated herself completely, and the only activities we shared tended to be eating out, or visiting her family.
I became more and more detached and continued to live my active life, doing everything by myself. I begged her, pleaded with her, cajoled her, and finally began ignoring her. Finally, after three years, I decided I couldn’t continue to live this way. I told her that I was considering a divorce. Meanwhile, one of the people I was confiding in was a very attractive coworker, who was also going through a divorce. Needless to say, we “fell in love’, and in Feb. 2002, I told my wife I wanted a divorce. She soon found out about the other woman and was beside herself with hurt and anger. She began to desperately lose weight and read self help books. But it was too late. I had found my “soul mate.” My hurt wife quickly obtained a divorce in 6 weeks, and moved out. Within 3 weeks, my new “soul mate” decided to reconcile with her husband. I was devastated.
My ex and I were still friends throughout this ordeal, as we had joint custody of our cats (no children). Two months after our divorce was final, we began slowly dating. She had lost quite a bit of weight, and was taking some interest in doing things. We continued to date over the next year; she continued to lose weight, eventually becoming quite slim and very attractive. I still loved her, but still didn’t feel that passion or spark or whatever it is. But I did like who she was becoming, and convinced myself that, maybe I had always loved her, but due to her weight gain and personality change, not to mention allowing myself to be lured by another woman, we had never done the work of true love. In May of 2003, we re-married, with my parents as our witnesses.
In less than a year, she began gaining weight very rapidly, and, much more quick this time, began shutting herself out of my life, and returning to her old ways. We have now been married a 2nd time for 3 years, and I am as miserable as I was in 2001. Our marriage is exactly the same as it was then, and she weighs as much or more. I feel nothing but pity and resentment for her, and just want to run away. She keeps saying that, if I loved her, I would accept her, but if that is true, then I don’t love her because I don’t accept this. I have been careful to not allow other women too deeply into my life, and there is no one that I am drawn to…yet. I am afraid that if I met someone attractive who convinced me that she wanted to share a life, I would be powerless to resist. I just feel alone and depressed. I feel like I have something to offer someone, but have no partner to share it with. I recently went to a music festival (I am an amateur musician) alone, and felt so cheated the whole weekend, because it was so wonderful, and I had no one to share it with. I have told my wife these feelings, and she is very upset, and says she is going to lose the weight and start living (she called Overeaters Anonymous this morning – I am a strong advocate of 12 Step groups, belong to one myself), but I really don’t know if I trust that, or have the energy to go through this a third time.
Okay, here are my questions? If you have never felt love for a person, can it be achieved through working together, communication and counseling? Or should I give it up after 9 years and two separate attempts. Is it possible that her weight gain and subsequent personality problems could have gotten in the way of us meeting each other’s needs, or is this just a cop out on my part? I know that I love my wife but I love music also. I have never felt in love with her. Can this be developed? Am I wrong to feel the way that I do (I feel very guilty much of the time for my feelings towards her)? I tend to be a very intensely emotional person, and want to be able to communicate with the woman in my life on this level, which is pretty much impossible with my wife. I am mostly content in all other areas of my life, and feel cheated and imprisoned by my marriage. To leave the marriage would be very financially disastrous, but I can’t live the rest of my life like this, and it is pretty apparent to me that she is pretty miserable also.
Whew – that was long. There is probably a lot left out, but this will do for now. Can someone please help me?

[valinors_sorrow]

I see some mutual duping going on here. This may come as a surprise to you but I also see two active addictions taking place -- her food addiction and your codependency. You know... its long been understood that if you take the alcohol or drugs away from the addicted, you often find a codependent underneath.

Somehow your committed presence activates her food addiction (which you may or may not be enabling) and it goes underground (yes, denial is just that powerful) when she is faced with being single. And somehow the prospect of being alone activates your codepedency, hence all the desperate measures you've resorted to (an affair and now TWICE down the same path with your wife) Its called insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, but you should know that drill, no?

Someone in this relationship needs to realise that you two aren't good for each other at the moment and either seek professional help or go your separate ways. It would be my sincere hope, whether you stay or not, that each of you seeks help with your respective addiction since those really haven't gone anywhere. Deal with it now or it will only surface again. I don't mean to be harsh sounding but it is what it is. I feel like I don't need to be telling you this when you are in a 12-Step fellowship but I'm a-telling you anyway LOL... switching seats on the Titantic doesn't change a thing.

Where most of us get trapped is when we see the other's fault so much that it blinds us to what we did. And yet what we did is exactly what we can AND very much need to change... its SO important to see things as they are! You can clearly see your wife as an overeater and as somewhat deceptive, but do you know the damage codependency creates? This story begins with a desperation (born out of codepdendency) causing you to marry someone you don't love (but probably implied that you did so there is your deception) with the hope you can learn to love her later and then blame her later for that failure. You've been practicing your own form of denial. Can you retell this story to yourself and this time put your part in it? If so, then there is hope for you.

[Fr_Chuck]

If you can't love a person regardless of their weight, I can see why they would withdraw,

Love means loving them, if they gain 200 lbs, if they lose 200 lbs. If they are in a wreck and have scars all over their face, ( like I do or lose use of one eye)

I could spend about 20 pages of each issue of both of you, but in the long run, it appears you love being with someone, not in love with this person,

Valinors Sorrow make a lot of great points, and I am sure she would have a totally different light on this story.

[Ilovethemountains]

I see some mutual duping going on here. This may come as a surprise to you but I also see two active addictions taking place -- her food addiction and your codependency. You know... its long been understood that if you take the alcohol or drugs away from the addicted, you often find a codependent underneath.

Somehow your committed presence activates her food addiction (which you may or may not be enabling) and it goes underground (yes, denial is just that powerful) when she is faced with being single. And somehow the prospect of being alone activates your codepedency, hence all the desperate measures you've resorted to (an affair and now TWICE down the same path with your wife) Its called insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, but you should know that drill, no?

Someone in this relationship needs to realise that you two aren't good for each other at the moment and either seek professional help or go your seperate ways. It would be my sincere hope, whether you stay or not, that each of you seeks help with your respective addiction since those really haven't gone anywhere. Deal with it now or it will only surface again. I don't mean to be harsh sounding but it is what it is. I feel like I don't need to be telling you this when you are in a 12-Step fellowship but I'm a-telling you anyway LOL ... switching seats on the Titantic doesn't change a thing.

Where most of us get trapped is when we see the other's fault so much that it blinds us to what we did. And yet what we did is exactly what we can AND very much need to change... its SO important to see things as they are! You can clearly see your wife as an overeater and as somewhat deceptive, but do you know the damage codependency creates? This story begins with a desperation (born out of codepdendency) causing you to marry someone you don't love (but probably implied that you did so there is your deception) with the hope you can learn to love her later and then blame her later for that failure. You've been practicing your own form of denial. Can you retell this story to yourself and this time put your part in it? If so, then there is hope for you.

Actually, it isn't a surprise. Since getting sober in 1993, every single crisis in my life has been as a result of my own codependency. The relationship that ended just prior to meeting my wife was based on caretaking and neediness. I have a history of getting into very intense emotional and destructive relationships, followed by "safe" relationships where I can't get hurt. I have always suspected the prime attraction to my wife was the lack of passion, as then she can't hurt me.

I have worked on codependency, spent 18 months in counseling after my 1993 relapse which was codependent based, yet, I have never been able to achieve a happy and lasting relationship. My wife has started counseling, and I plan to begin couples counseling in a few weeks... but, my main point was that, if I have never felt love, is there any point to this? Am I just going to continue to hurt her, and she hurt me?

BTW, I am almost ashamed to admit this last part - I am an Addictions Counselor with many years in the field. As someone told me last week, "Physician, heal thyself."

Thank you for your replies.

[talaniman]

Okay Mr Counselor you already know what I'm going to say . You can't change anyone but yourself. Your present attitude will poison any relationship you get into whether its with a slim super-model or Hugo the blimp. Go to the counselling with your wife.

[s_cianci]

First of all, it is true that love takes time to grow ; one does not "fall in love" in the way that's required for a marriage to be successful. It sounds like your wife has a lot of emotional issues to deal with which have manifested themselves in unhealthy yo-yo dieting and weight gain and loss along with her waning interest in ordinary activities. A successful marriage requires commitment and you seem to be they type of guy who's willing to make the necessary commitment. Your wife seems like she's willing also but, as I just said, she has a lot of complex emotional issues to deal with. She needs professional help and I think that your first move has to be getting her that help. I think that means more than just Overeaters Anonymous and self-help books. That means a fully licensed, qualified psychologist or psychiatrist if necessary. If she won't budge and consent to accept the help she needs then you may have to resign yourself to the fact that it's over and get on with your life without her. I truly believe that you do love her in the way that a husband should love his wife. Now it's time for her to reciprocate as she owes you exactly the same love and commitment that you've given her. If she won't, then leave the marriage, financial disasters notwithstanding.

[valinors_sorrow]

Don't decide anything until you've been to the couple counseling for a while. What's the hurry here? You know the drill, get into recovery (hopefully both of you) without making any major changes, just for now. Time to walk the walk. This is more about recovery than anything else and if it isn't then there is likely not going to be recovery.

[K_3]

I think counseling will be great for both of you. You may not end up together in the end. I wonder what role you are playing in the fact that when you get married she gets fat. We are all responsible for our own actions, so I am not blaming you but there is definitely something going on there that envolves you. You sound as though you have some pretty heavy issues to work through also. If you go to couples counseling you will both hear things about yourselves that may help. If you only see your side and tell a counselor your side, it is more difficult to see the whole picture. Being a counselor you know you have to have the whole picture to really help someone. We all see things differently and can certainly see others faults and not our own.
You ask, if you don't love her is there a point to this. I say yes, because the 2 of you may be able to help each other get through some issues in order to move on whether it is together or apart. If you both divorce now, you are going to keep in the same pattern, as that is what you have done in the past. Sorry, but it sounds as though you are putting a bit more blame on her. It is all about her looks, so you may just be a "shallow Hal":)

[Ilovethemountains]

It is all about her looks, so you may just be a "shallow Hal":)

Actually, I don't believe that it is just her looks that bother me. I thought I mentioned some of this in the first post, but I am not the most concise writer in the world. For me, the personality change, the inability to communicate on anything other than a superficial level due to her resentment, defensiveness, and negativity, all play a bigger role. My resentment and sense of betrayal really doesn't help the process either. Plus, the fact that I have no one to share my life with. I do everything, and I mean everything, alone. I always thought that, getting married meant you had a partner in life, and I am doing more things alone now than when I was single. Actually, if she still acted like the person I married (twice), I don't know that her appearance would bother me to the degree that it does. I think the body size has become the focus for for my anger, as it represents the addiction. It is akin to being angry at an alcoholic because they are always drunk.

I hope that makes sense.

[valinors_sorrow]

This isn't about who is at fault here or even who abandoned who first. Enough of the blame game-- yikes, what a hole that is! And you know what they say about if you find yourself in a hole? Quit digging!

This is about how two (very likely wonderful) people with active addictions aren't really available for any sort of relationship. I see this confirmed again and again in my observation of the world so it comes as no surprise there isn't much of a relationship here for EITHER of you. This is why BOTH addictions need to be addressed first in order to see what comes of that... there may be a lovely relationship waiting for the both of you and then again there may not. But clearly you can't find out by doing what you've been doing. Please seek professional help, preferably someone well versed in addictions who can hook you up with other resources. If you lived in my town, I would know precisely who to suggest... instead you need to get busy finding the professional and some of those other resources too. Meantime make a commitment for no more talking of the other one's faults. Silence is an improvement over that. Stick to looking at your own stuff.

[K_3]

I understand what you are saying, I just feel the two of you both can try counseling together, whether it brings you closer or farther apart. It is odd that she would do a complete turn around just because of a marriage license. I did not read anything that might suggest you changed at all after marriage. Your question was if it was a waste of time to go to go to couples counseling and I said I thought it would be good and gave you reasons. Yes, you focused a lot on her weight, I felt it has a lot to do with it, but if it doesn't, you are the one who would know. I am certainly not blaming either of you, blame fixes nothing. I was just wondering if you played any role in the changes in your marriage. That's all.

[K_3]

This isn't about who is at fault here or even who abandoned who first. Enough of the blame game-- yikes, what a hole that is! And you know what they say about if you find yourself in a hole? Quit digging!

This is about how two (very likely wonderful) people with active addictions aren't really available for any sort of relationship. I see this confirmed again and again in my observation of the world so it comes as no surprise there isn't much of a relationship here for EITHER of you. This is why BOTH addictions need to be addressed first in order to see what comes of that....there may be a lovely relationship waiting for the both of you and then again there may not. But clearly you can't find out by doing what you've been doing. Please seek professional help, preferrably someone well versed in addictions who can hook you up with other resources. If you lived in my town, I would know precisely who to suggest.....instead you need to get busy finding the professional and some of those other resources too. Meantime make a commitment for no more talking of the other one's faults. Silence is an improvement over that. Stick to looking at your own stuff.

I was not blaming, just an observation that it was all her and just wondered if maybe he had a role in it anyplace.

[Ilovethemountains]

I was not blaming, just an observation that it was all her and just wondered if maybe he had a role in it anyplace.

Absolutely not. I deny that. Categorically, completely, ultimately, no way. It's all her fault (stamping his little foot):mad: . Denial = Didn't Even Notice I Am Lying

Actually, I am sure that I did. After she changed I certainly contributed by meeting her withdrawal with withdrawal. I called it Detaching (nothing more dangerous than an addictions counselor in pain.);) I don't see my part at the outset, but, gosh, that is what denial is. In fact, until these posts, I never even considered that I may have enabled the change. She does have a long history of this prior to our meeting, but... :confused:

Oh well. The counselor she is seeing is an addictions counselor, and I was initially resistant to seeing him - after all, how can he help me... I am his equal :rolleyes: But upon thinking about some of the responses I have gotten, esp. Val (thank you very much), I told her today to set up a session with him. I also have gotten some referrals from colleagues for couples counseling. Today, I feel that a 9 year investment in a relationship deserves complete commitment to see it through. I want to once again thank everyone, and if you want, will let you know how it goes.

BTW - A lot of what you guys have been saying, was said to me last week by one of the people I sponsor. I swear, they get more impertinent each year.

ILTM

[K_3]

:) I thought you would see it, even if I kept it suttle. Your pretty smart, it did not take much, eh?:) Yes, keep us posted, will love to hear the outcome. Good luck

[valinors_sorrow]

I was not blaming, just an observation that it was all her and just wondered if maybe he had a role in it anyplace.

Oh dear... I wasn't suggesting you were blaming K_3, In that post of mine, I was addressing how the OP was still pretty focused on his wife but now that I have read the latest post from him, it is apparent (and good too :) ) that he understands he has a part in it and that needs to be looked at.

And you are welcome Mountains. Just because we are in the industry doesn't make us immune from a darned thing. If its any consolation, I am also in the business and currently seeing a therapist too. For me.

Apply yourself to the recovery process for codependency. Read the book Codependent No More by Melody Beattie. It really is an incidious thing. I have seen it destroy more people and relationships than most would give it credit for. And it is possible to recover from it too - I know this firsthand - and its worth it too!

Good luck and feel free to keep us posted here.

[Ilovethemountains]

Val - One thing that I haven't mentioned. I relapsed 13 years ago while working in the field. One thing my therapist and I uncovered at the time was that my relapse was partly due to my inability to accept that all my patients didn't get well - some (most) of them returned to alcohol and drug use. I believed that I had failed them... in other words, codependency. (The other reason being that I confused my job with my program of recovery). I spent 18 months in therapy for codependency at that time. But I have never sought counseling for my codependency in my personal relationships, even though that has kicked my butt in all of my relationships in recovery. I just didn't see it in this relationship - it was way too easy to blame her!

I recognize that being in this field doesn't make me immune to anything - I frequently tell people that I am one of the sanest people I know, simply because I have some awareness of how crazy I am, something most people deny. I just missed it this time.

Thanks again

ILTM