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arcura · Feb 8, 2009, 04:35 PM

Job 7:1-4, 6-7

The Book of Job is one of the most popular stories in world literature.

It deals with the problem of human suffering of the just person. Why? Job knows he is righteous, but in the course of the story, as he argues with three friends who are convinced he is being punished for his sins, Job overdoes his own righteousness. He speaks to God directly, demanding an explanation for the ill-treatment he has received.

God rebukes Job for thinking that his righteous life has somehow “earned” him happiness. Job is humbled as he learns that our sufferings are not the result of our sins. Rather, that we suffer so that the works of God may be shown forth in us. Suffering is still a mystery, but our trust in God's goodness and obedient acceptance of His reasons will bring us to joyful salvation in God's heaven. In the end, health and prosperity are restored a hundredfold to Job.

His powerful story has comforted thousands upon thousands of people who have lost everything, but have held tenaciously to their faith in a loving God.

In our own lives, when we feel that God has acted cruelly or unjustly, then we need to look at Christ on the cross. Was it fair for Jesus, whose only crime was loving us, to be killed on a cross after severe humiliation and torture? Was it fair for Mary to suffer the terrible pain that only mothers can know and appreciate?

Like Job, may we never feel that God has abandoned us when He allows us to suffer. Rather, may we have faith enough in the wisdom of Providence that has allowed us to share in the mysterious plan of Jesus' saving Passion that goes on through the centuries. It all ends in Resurrection.

:confused:Do you believe that you suffer because God allows it to happen?:confused:
:confused:Or for some other reason?:confused:
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

450donn · Feb 8, 2009, 04:56 PM

Fred,
Please give the scripture reference for your comment:
"God rebukes Job for thinking that his righteous life has somehow “earned” him happiness."
I see no where in Job where god rebukes Job. In fact it is Satan who pesters God to let him test Job. Remember, God has no authority here on earth unless we give it to him of our own free will..

arcura · Feb 8, 2009, 05:08 PM

Don
I already gave it in the quesrion.
Here it is again
Job 7:1-4, 6-7

savedsinner7 · Feb 8, 2009, 05:55 PM

Suffering produces character, patience, obedience and righteousness.

Acts 9:16
And I will show him how much he must suffer for my name's sake.”

Romans 8:18
[ The Future Glory ] Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later

2 Corinthians 1:5
For the more we suffer for Christ, the more God will shower us with his comfort through Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:10
Through suffering, our bodies continue to share in the death of Jesus so that the life of Jesus may also be seen in our bodies.

2 Corinthians 12:10
That's why I take pleasure in my weaknesses, and in the insults, hardships, persecutions, and troubles that I suffer for Christ. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

2 Timothy 4:5
But you should keep a clear mind in every situation. Don't be afraid of suffering for the Lord. Work at telling others the Good News, and fully carry out the ministry God has given you.

Hebrews 5:8
Even though Jesus was God's Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered.

1 Peter 4:1
[ Living for God ] So then, since Christ suffered physical pain, you must arm yourselves with the same attitude he had, and be ready to suffer, too. For if you have suffered physically for Christ, you have finished with sin.

1 peter 4
12 Dear friends, don't be surprised at the fiery trials you are going through, as if something strange were happening to you. 13 Instead, be very glad—for these trials make you partners with Christ in his suffering, so that you will have the wonderful joy of seeing his glory when it is revealed to all the world.

arcura · Feb 8, 2009, 07:28 PM

savedsinner7,
Yes that is right but why do YOU suffer?
Or do you suffer?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

savedsinner7 · Feb 8, 2009, 08:46 PM

The reasons I suffer are listed in the verses I posted. I believe that what is said in God's Word applies personally to me. The suffering I have endured has strengthened my faith, given me a testimony to share and made me stronger in Who He Is. The things that I suffer drive me to my knees in prayer, seeking the face of God, seeking His hand, seeking His will. The suffering builds patience, endurance and makes me more like who He created me to be. The suffering refines me and drives out that which will be burned up to leave that which is pure. The suffering I have endured leads me to recognize the hand of God in my life and to identify with Jesus my LORD.

arcura · Feb 8, 2009, 09:49 PM

savedsinner7,
Thank you very much for that explanation.
You made it very clear.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

jakester · Feb 9, 2009, 12:10 PM

arcura & 450donn -

First, arcura - I think your analysis of suffering in Job is underappreciated. Quite frankly, there are philosophies that permeate Christianity (not all of it) which deny that human suffering is for any other reason but for sin. But as you pointed out, human suffering is something in the hands of a good and loving God, in which he uses to grown one's faith and character. If we think that when we are suffering it is because of sin, we have wrongly interpreted God's character, I think. For if God as a matter of principle uses suffering to punish people for sin, all of us should be suffering because we are all sinners.

Arcura, I'm not quite sure I see the rebuke you are referencing coming from Job Chapter 7... I do see it in Ch 38, though. Can you give some more clarity about how you think Ch 7 is a rebuke from God?

450donn - God does rebuke Job in Ch 38. The nature of the rebuke stems from Job's insistence that God owed him an explanation for why we were suffering. Ultimately, Job needed to come to the place where he understood that God is our creator and he does not need our approval or input for how he chooses to run this world, including us. But it is a loving rebuke from a creator towards his creation... Job sees and understands it as a rebuke because in Chapter 42 he responds in the following manner:

Then Job answered the Lord and said:

“I know that you can do all things,
And that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?'
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
'Hear, and I will speak;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.'
I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,
But now my eye sees you;
Therefore I despise myself,
And repent in dust and ashes.”

Again, Job is repenting of his demand for God's explanation. God never gives him an answer but instead asks him questions to drive home the point that when God was creating the universe, he never stopped to consult with Job about whether he was doing it right or not... Job's life and ours is another example of how God reigns over his creation and how he can choose to do with us whatever he desires.

Choux · Feb 9, 2009, 01:02 PM

The great failure of the Bible is that it fails to answer the most important of our questions... "Why People Suffer". The good as well as the bad suffer terribly in life. EVERYONE SUFFERS.

The Book of Job states there are two reasons for human suffering:

A. Suffering is a *test* and you will be rewarded later for passing the test.
B. Suffering is beyond comprehension.

Biblical Prophets say that suffering is a punishment for sinning. Then, why do good people suffer?

Christianity does not answer the reality that everyone suffers in life, the good and the bad and all between. We humans have that in common. :)

NeedKarma · Feb 9, 2009, 01:04 PM

I don't suffer. :)

Choux · Feb 9, 2009, 01:13 PM

NK, Wait until people you love start dying. :)

NeedKarma · Feb 9, 2009, 03:45 PM

Ok, but I most likely won't be hanging around a website in those times.

Choux · Feb 9, 2009, 06:49 PM

Total non sequitur. Lol

Everyone suffers during their lives. :)

Alder · Feb 9, 2009, 07:42 PM

A close friend of mine has a dog that is old and may have a spleen tumor. We were talking about the suffering that older dogs sometimes go through. While under some circumstances it is merciful to put them down, I commented that dogs are often people in realizing that joy is deeper than comfort. They can be happy even when they are suffering. If they are with their loved ones, and know they are loved, petted and told they are good, they don't care if they are in pain. No matter how decrepit, they will faithfully, and joyfully hobble along after us to their last breaths. Even on their deathbeds they wag with every ounce of fading strength whenever we come near.

Is the purpose of life to be free from suffering? Is it to be comfortable? Is it to feel pleasure? If we can develop a deeper sense of self, of our connection to all being, then our individual pains and pleasures will never really separate us from the ever-present Spirit. So when God asks us, "Were you there when I laid the foundations of the world?" We can answer, "Hell, yes! And it was cool!"

arcura · Feb 9, 2009, 07:59 PM

jakester,
You are right. I should have also mentioned chapter 38
Thanks much.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

arcura · Feb 9, 2009, 08:24 PM

Alder.
Thanks much for that.
It is a great post and thought provoking.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

jakester · Feb 10, 2009, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by Choux

The great failure of the Bible is that it fails to answer the most important of our questions..."Why People Suffer". The good as well as the bad suffer terribly in life. EVERYONE SUFFERS.

The Book of Job states there are two reasons for human suffering:

A. Suffering is a *test* and you will be rewarded later for passing the test.
B. Suffering is beyond comprehension.

Biblical Prophets say that suffering is a punishment for sinning. Then, why do good people suffer?

Christianity does not answer the reality that everyone suffers in life, the good and the bad and all inbetween. We humans have that in common. :)

Choux - it seems that you are presenting a contradiction of thoughts because you say "the bible fails to answer the most important of our questions" and yet you provide reason A and B for why people suffer, according to your interpretation of Job.

Is your point of contention that though the bible offers two reasons—as you pointed out—for why people suffer, that they are not adequate answers to the question of "why do people suffer?"

I wanted to be sure I understood what you are saying.

gromitt82 · Feb 10, 2009, 10:24 AM

Dear friend,
We must believe GOD is perfect. Therefore, Almighty and Omnipresent.
Hinduists claim that “Not even a blade of grass will move without divine Will”
And the Taoists say: God's hand has touched even every small blade of grass which grows in the field... All creatures we see contain God's deep heart and tell the story of God's deep love.
For GOD there cannot be yesterday, today or tomorrow. Time and space must be meaningless for GOD.
Consequently, we must conclude that GOD knows whatever has happened, happens and will happen to each of us here in our planet and in the entire Universe he has created, until the end of it, if there is an end for the Universe as we know it.
A different thing altogether, I believe, is to consider that we suffer because GOD allows it to happen.
GOD created us and at the same time GOD set up the Laws that control and govern both our Earth and the Universe.
Earthquakes, tornados or tsunamis are natural consequences of these Laws. And mankind is also submitted to the very same Laws and their results.
We get diseases, plagues and pandemics because there exist microorganisms, germs, bacteria and viruses causing them.
And people die because we all have to, sooner or later. I honestly do not think that GOD has anything to do with it.
We are welcome, hoever, to pray GOD to help us enduring our sufferings and accept whatever distress we may run into with resignation, as Job did, while asking GOD to provide us with enough strength to overcome our pain.:):)

Choux · Feb 10, 2009, 10:58 AM

J, The Bible offers more than two reasons people sufffer... I just mentioned the two reasons given for human suffering in the Book of Job... also, I threw in the reason some prophets give... God's punishment for sin... THREE different reasons, there are more reasons given in the Bible. But, why do good people suffer? GodAlmighty is all powerful and all loving(?? ) is inconsistent with the reality of millions of good people suffering.

There is no good reason given for why people suffer, just *speculations* for the misery humans go through in life.

Regards, :)

gromitt82 · Feb 10, 2009, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Choux

J, The Bible offers more than two reasons why people sufffer....I just mentioned the two reasons given for human suffering in the Book of Job.....also, I threw in the reason some prophets give....God's punishment for sin...THREE different reasons, there are more reasons given in the Bible. But, why do good people suffer? GodAlmighty is all powerful and all loving(???) is inconsistent with the reality of millions of good people suffering.

There is no good reason given for why people suffer, just *speculations* for the misery humans go through in life.

Regards, :)

And yet, I think another perhaps more “philosophical” reason why people suffer is precisely because GOD loves us…
In Spanish we have a saying that goes “Who loves you well will make you cry” meaning that sometimes we may have to give a no for an answer to someone we love because we DO know it will be best for him/her.
As GOD loves us GOD must want us to join HIM in Paradise! God, through our suffering may be simply trying us and helping us, without our realizing it, to finally reach HIM.
But as you rightly say, this is sheer “speculation”. The real answer will have to await a little…