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Starman · Aug 22, 2006, 12:55 AM

The tolerance of all beliefs regardless of their consequeuences would create a lawless society.

valinors_sorrow · Aug 22, 2006, 03:56 AM

Originally Posted by Starman

The tolerance of all beliefs regardless of their consequeuences would create a lawless society.

That is a "baby out with the bathwater" argument and distinctly NOT what I am advocating. There is a huge difference between tolerating ALL beliefs and tolerating all religious beliefs. It is slyly suggesting that other religious beliefs (apart from the one you believe in, of course) utterly lack a moral code, which is patently and prejudiciously incorrect.

Krs · Aug 22, 2006, 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by valinors_sorrow

That is a "baby out with the bathwater" argument and distinctly NOT what I am advocating. There is a huge difference between tolerating ALL beliefs and tolerating all religious beliefs. It is slyly suggesting that other religious beliefs (apart from the one you believe in, of course) utterly lack a moral code, which is patently and prejudiciously incorrect.

Couldn't it spread it Val.. but I agree quite rightly.

talaniman · Aug 22, 2006, 05:47 AM

I honestly see nothing wrong with any religion, It's the nuts who do bad things in their Gods' name that make me mad. The funny part is that every religion on earth has gone through the holier than thou thing and persecuted somebody who would not bow to their will. Thats' why I deal with people and not their religion. And if I see they are nuts I leave them alone too.

Krs · Aug 22, 2006, 05:57 AM

Couldn't spread it Tal, but I'm with you on this one for sure!

31pumpkin · Aug 22, 2006, 10:28 AM

The Bible tells" us" that it is impossible to please God without faith. He also says that there ARE outsiders. In the Book these are the unbelievers. So how would God be pleased by people just choosing any doctrine to live by? Or by their own?
God gave us the power of the Holy Spirit, with the spiritual armor to ward off any unclean spiritual attacks. To agree with anything but is unfruitful & possibly destructive. I won't.
Even believers worship & serve the Lord differently. So, so it is with the secular population. All entitled to their opinions.

I believe there's only one true God, & one messiah. If you believe in another religion or cult, all I have to say is show me the miracles this deity or man has done in your life. That would be something worth listening to, instead of just tolerating words that don't describe any self-sacrifice, worship or service.

ScottGem · Aug 22, 2006, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

I believe there's only one true God, & one messiah. If you believe in another religion or cult, all I have to say is show me the miracles this deity or man has done in your life. That would be something worth listening to, instead of just tolerating words that don't describe any self-sacrifice, worship or service.

Since you put it that way, let me ask what miracles your deity has done in your life?

My view of a deity is such that he would want to be worshipped, but would recognize the fact that people are different since he made us that way. Therefore, he would provide different ways to be worshipped.

The fact that most religions have a similar set of ethics. That some are built on others and that some have similar mythologies lends credance to that viewpoint. This leads to being tolerant of others chosen methods of worship.

I look not at what god or religion a person choose to follow but at whether the person adheres to the generally accepted ethical code of behavior that transcends most religions.

talaniman · Aug 22, 2006, 11:27 AM

Scot we are on the same page and I'll add words are useless unless you listen to them and some words get lost in actions that are opposite the words. The path I try to follow is my way of using the free will that God gave me to be a good human and love my fellow man even though I don't agree with him or his actions.

K_3 · Aug 22, 2006, 12:13 PM

I believe intolerance of anothers religon or spiritual belief is the cause of many hate groups, wars and negative energy that harms our world peace. We are not to judge each other, that is for God to do. Why do we feel we have the right to be intolorent of another's belief? God did not say "Judge not that ye be not judged, except for religious beliefs".
I was raised going to a Christian church, I believe in God, I believe in Jesus. I do not believe in organized religion. I believe God created everyone. I do not know why there are many religions, many beliefs, all of whom have so many spiritual leaders that are awesome. There is a reason for all of us. I have read many of their teachings and got far more from them about leading a spititual life than from my minister.
Do you think being intolerant of other religions is being ignorant of the knowledge of other religions. Not meaning you need to change religions, but to understand other religions opens your eyes to understand them. There are good people in all beliefs, to be intolerant of someone because they do not believe as you do, does not seem to be living the path God would have you live. Jesus was not intolerant of nonbelievers.
I have to say since I studied some other beliefs and read teachings of great spiritual leaders, I feel I have come to know God better and feel closer to him and feel freer than I felt going to church each Sunday. Some will judge me for that, as that is not how I was raised to believe, but it is how I FEEL, and it makes me feel good. I no longer fear God. I have no animosity in my heart for anyone. It is very hard for me to be angry with anyone. If I do have anger it leaves my quickly. I know in my heart, for me, I am on the right path or I would not feel so much peace and love.
Intolerance of others beliefs causes hate and discontent and that is not God's intent. So there it is.

31pumpkin · Aug 22, 2006, 12:20 PM

Well, ethics & morals are very important, it wouldn't be enough for me, except in the business world. I was speaking about Churchgoers anyway, how they worship or serve the Lord differently. Some belong to the music ministry. Some sing standing. Some wave banners & sing. Some clap their hands.Some raise their hands. Some speak in tongues. Some close their eyes while they sing.Some dance & sing. I have no idea what Jews do in the Temple. Or Muslims in the Mosque. I just know it would be different.

But I could not be close friends with an unbeliever. It's one thing to help someone who is poor in spirit, but it's burdensome to me when that person's personal creed is "my will be done" instead of "your will be done, Lord." We'd have to part company not just because sinners can corrupt(unbelief is a sin in itself) but I wouldn't be doing the will of God. Romans 12:2 - And do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Philippians 4:7 - And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.
I could tell you about how the Lord saved my month old from choking to death on formula. How when I called on Him the miracle happened. I could tell you how the Lord saved us during hurricane Andrew(when I really thought He'd forsaken us) I could tell you how my friend & I could have been lunch for a shark as we were on a rubber raft& vulnerable. But I met the black eyes at the same time he saw me.Wasn't our time. My reaction was to take my oar & beat the heck out of it. All it took was me raising the oar & it went away! I couldn't think of reacting like that if I tried.
I could go on but I don't want to bore anyone(including myself) so someone else could speak of their deliverances too.
So basically what I'm saying is that I feel more comfortable knowing that someone else has a religion or faith that they enjoy being a part of. Especially when there are common beliefs and practices involved.

NeedKarma · Aug 22, 2006, 12:32 PM

So if God saved you from these perils please be reminded that He put you there also. My god doesn't put me in the those dangers.

ScottGem · Aug 22, 2006, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

But I could not be close friends with an unbeliever.

And that makes you intolerant of other people's beliefs.

Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

I could tell you about how the Lord saved my month old from choking to death on formula. How when I called on Him the miracle happened. I could tell you how the Lord saved us during hurricane Andrew(when I really thought He'd forsaken us) I could tell you how my friend & I could have been lunch for a shark as we were on a rubber raft& vulnerable. But I met the black eyes at the same time he saw me.Wasn't our time. My reaction was to take my oar & beat the heck out of it. All it took was me raising the oar & it went away! I couldn't think of reacting like that if I tried.
I could go on but I don't want to bore anyone(including myself) so someone else could speak of their deliverances too.
So basically what I'm saying is that I feel more comfortable knowing that someone else has a religion or faith that they enjoy being a part of. Especially when there are common beliefs and practices involved.

I'm sure you believe that these were interventions of a divine power. I'm sure it gives you great comfort to believe that there is a deity that you can pray to who answers those prayers. I'm happy for you that you have found such comfort in your life.

I'm also sure that nothing I could say would disabuse you of those beliefs so I won't even try. All I ask is that you understand and accept that I choose to have different beliefs. That I have found compelling (to me) arguments that have led me to different beliefs. That believing as I do does not make me a bad person, that it does not interfere with your beliefs and that I have the right to have those beliefs. However, if you do not accept those three points then you are being intolerant.

31pumpkin · Aug 22, 2006, 01:17 PM

ScottGem - I have no trouble accepting that there are others with different beliefs. However, if I don't choose an unbeliever for a friend, it doesn't make me regiously intolerant(or some other hyped up word that is still just a word) it makes me a Christian. Now that is actually in my belief system. I think you accept my beliefs as well as the next guy, since I have a right to be here too.
I exercise that right also. So peace to you too.
-----------------------------------------------
Now Needkarma - your comment is debatable. People get themselves into all sorts of danger. Even just driving a car(another miracle story there too) So maybe yes, the Lord wanted to show me a miracle, & put me there. But I hardly think going out 20yds. In the ocean to enjoy some water sports would be perilous. I mean one could be in fear to do anything but sit in a box because something might happen to them. :eek:

talaniman · Aug 22, 2006, 02:19 PM

By 31pumpkin

So basically what I'm saying is that I feel more comfortable knowing that someone else has a religion or faith that they enjoy being a part of. Especially when there are common beliefs and practices involved.

I have a faith that I believe in that I really enjoy being part of and the practice of being a good human should endear your friendship, so I wonder what our problem could be. Many of my friends are Christians, and Muslims, some Hindi, more than a few agnostics, some atheists,. seems I get along with other good humans really well no matter what they believe.

K_3 · Aug 22, 2006, 02:32 PM

Pumpkin, you have every right to be here. But to say you are not intolerant of other religions, but you say you would never choose an unbeliever for a friend. Is that a contradiction in terms? By being their friend you may bring them to your beliefs without pushing it on them. I have had people ask me how I have achieved such peace in my life. I tell them and they have found God because they want an inner peace.
If you choose to be intolerant of other religions, fine, that is your right. Just be honest and say you are. God bless you.

ScottGem · Aug 22, 2006, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

ScottGem - I have no trouble accepting that there are others with different beliefs. However, if I don't choose an unbeliever for a friend, it doesn't make me regiously intolerant

Well that's subject to debate. If you refuse friendship with someone solely because of their religious beliefs, then, In my opinion, that is intolerance. But its not them who will be the poorer. By denying yourself fraternizing with diverse peoples, you lose out from learning new things. You tend to stagnate. You become narrow minded and insular. At least that's been my experience with such attitudes.

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

So if God saved you from these perils please be reminded that He put you there also. My god doesn't put me in the those dangers.

You bring out the inherent contradiction. A deity that interposes itself into a mortal's life to the extent indicated had to have at least let things go bad in the first place, if not cause them. Such a deity sounds more like a mischief maker then a benevolent guardian. But, if someone finds comfort in that, that's up to them.

galveston · Aug 22, 2006, 04:17 PM

Woah, Scot, I don't know what "deity" you have in mind, but the quote below is illuminating concerning Jesus Christ, at least, and I think this excahnge started with 31Pumpkin, so we seem to be talking about Christianity.(?)
John 10:10-11
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

It is the devil, (or ourselves, sometimes), that gets us into hot water. Let's not place the blame in the wrong place.

NeedKarma · Aug 22, 2006, 04:21 PM

You know what weird? My circle of friends, family and acquaintances are mainly christians and amongst those hundreds of people there is not one who has the belief that 31Pumpkin and Starman have that christians shouldn't associate with non-christians. I have no idea where they get that idea but they must be a very small minority. I thank the stars for that.

Originally Posted by galveston

John 10:10-11
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

It is the devil, (or ourselves, sometimes), that gets us into hot water. Let's not place the blame in the wrong place.

That verse says nothing about a devil that is the cause of your troubles.

valinors_sorrow · Aug 22, 2006, 04:27 PM

Just wander through some of the amazing statistics in this site to see how important religious tolerance will be in the coming years in this country.

'We the people' of the United States now form the most profusely religious nation on earth." Diana Eck.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm

galveston · Aug 22, 2006, 04:38 PM

NK,
In the context, just who would you assume the thief to be? If Jesus referred to the common petty thief, then His statement about Himself doesn't make sense. But if you don't think that the devil is the thief intended, that's OK, but please don't accuse the one who gave His life willingly for us of doing evil.
But, then, I guess all this has nothing to do with intolerance.