[ultimate_user_name]

Mans' views on God, and all the many religions seem misconstrued to me, aren't we missing the point? Why does it matter which religion we chose? I think Men have messed up religion, they've bent and twisted it for their own devices.


1. Many "Faith Healers" have been shown to be complete lunatics.

2.Many cults have used religion as a way to control their members, and many horrible things have been done in the name of God.

3.Whose job is it to say what God really wants? The Bible was written by many different men over a long period, and then men decided what books would go in, not God! There are many books that didn't make it in for some very questionably reasons.

The Bible can only be regarded as a nice book to read, a result of the spiritual journeys of people that lived in a different time and culture.

4.Some people take it literally, but you surely can't take it all literally, there's parts about stoning women, slaughtering animals as sacrifice, etc, etc. If you get to pick and chose what parts of the Bible apply to you, then you're not taking it all literally, so you shouldn't take any of it literally.

5.The foundation of Christianity was set a long, long, long time ago by a man named Zoroaster. When he came around people were still worshiping many gods, they had a god for everything back then.

Zoroaster narrowed it down to two Gods, a good one and an evil one, the good one standing for truth and creation, "Ahura Mazda". He paved the way for monotheism everywhere. But we don't follow this religion, we've twisted and molded our own.


6.Even within monotheism, there are so many different kinds! And so many contradictions!

Christianity (and all it's off branches)- they disagree about whether to baptize babies, whether it's OK to do anything on Sunday. Do you really think this nit-picking will cause you to go to hell?

Here you are at the pearly gates, you did everything right, uh-oh, but there's an error in your paperwork, seems you weren't baptized as a baby, and you ate a lot of pork, guess you're going to have to burn for eternity :(

Hinduism-
Islam
Buddhism
Chinese traditional religions
Sikhism
Shinto
Juche
Zoroastrianism (ya, remember him?)


These are all major CURRENT religions, having millions and millions of followers. Think about that for a second, if you (Christianity) are right, then 70% of the worlds population (at least, that's not counting Christians that screw up) is going to hell.

Even though most of these people are nice, they're human beings, just following the religion they were raised to believe.


7. My problem with hell. This is one thing I can't let slide, I absolutely do NOT believe in a hell, though pretty much ALL of the Christians I have talked to do, it's what they're working so hard to stay out of.

Picture hell, the smell of sulfur chokes you, fills your nostrils and lungs with acrid smoke. The flames are all around you now, because of the smoke and fire, you feel as though you are drowning and burning at the same time. You can't breathe, your in pain. You try rolling on the ground, but nothing can stop this fire. Only eternity left to go.

Can you think of ANYONE? That deserves this punishment for eternity? And from a "loving, merciful, and forgiving" God.

No one deserves hell, let's think of the most evil person we can for a moment. I'll go with Hitler.

Burning for eternity, he will never leave. What about this, what if he had to write a ten-page essay to every person he had ever wronged, explain why he was sorry, and how he's realized the error of his ways, he must read it to them personally, and if they don't like it, he has to go back and write it again. He will be writing essays forever! Imagine the hand cramps he'll get! Painful. But for people that only sinned a little, they can probably get away with 50-100 essays, much more manageable, and much more reasonable than just throwing them all in a pit of fire.

And what about the people raised into the wrong religion? Do you really send them to hell? They can't help where they were raised...

So, I don't believe in hell, it's not something a merciful God would do. I think it probably started when people were describing how angry God would be at them if they didn't follow his rules, and developed into the more detailed imagery we have today.



8. MY SUMMARY: I don't see why Christianity is so special, anyone that does their best in the situation that they were raised gets to go to heaven in my book. I think that if God does have a "message" for you, that you will have to find it on your own, and that following the misconstrued ideas of man will only serve to confuse and bore you.


May you all find your own peace...

~Nic

[jakester]

So Nic, if you've made up your mind that Christianity is not true and that the bible is just another way of man attempting to explain unexplainable or unknowable realities, then fine, you've made your decision. But if you are really sincere when you say "I think that if God does have a "message" for you, that you will have to find it on your own...", then why wouldn't the bible be a "message" for someone else. I think you are wrong to attempt to discredit what someone else may believe just because you personally do not subscribe to it. If you are right about the bible only serving to confuse people (me included), then I am glad to be confused.

I guess my advice to you is that if you have decided that Christianity is not right and that the bible can only confuse others, then just be content to believe what you will. But please do not feel it necessary to come to the Christian section on websites like this and tell others how stupid they are for believing the bible. Give me a break, man; what's your deal? Why do you feel the need to come here and give your own personal manifesto on the utter implausibility of the bible and then bid everyone peace... that's not peace, my friend. What you have said here can only amount to contempt and scorn for people who do happen to believe the bible.

Next time you feel the need to beseech peace upon others, maybe you ought to take a good, hard look at what your real motivations are because I think they are totally hypocritical and I ain't buying it.

Respectfully.

[ultimate_user_name]

Buy whatever you want, I'm not trying to discredit a belief in God.

In fact I would like to know what makes some people really believe in Christianity, because to me the vast amounts of religions are fascinating, how are we to know which is right??

I'm not trying to be rude to anyone, and I'm sorry if I came across as bashing a belief in God. I think the Bible is confusing, if you can find some peace in it, then I am glad for you.

I have come to the conclusion that how you should act, and what you should believe should be pursued by the individual, but so many people are christians, so tell me. Why Christianity?? What about Christianity in particular appeals to you? Do you think there is a hell or is it just a metaphor for Gods wrath?

I hope you find peace in yourself, and do not let internet conversations with strangers upset you.

[450donn]

If you think of the bible as a owners manual you might better understand what is saying. Whether you choose to believe or not, Christians believe that the bible is the inspired word of God. As such, if you are to believe in God then you must believe that what is in the bible is also true.
Most people that slander the bible have not read it completely through or listened to good sound teachings on the bible. I understand if you were to listened to the cult leaders that have cropped up over the past 50 or so years you could be confused. But, that is where the bible stands out. If you are reading the word of God, you will know when something in a church is not right. Has the church made mistakes in the past? Certainly, so has every man that has ever walked on the face of the earth. Those that are put in authority also must face God on Judgment day, and personally I would not want to be in the shoes of those people on that day.
Bottom line is that if you are truly seeking God, then you first need to start reading the bible. Get a version that you can understand and read it. Second you need to start attending a church. I really don't care what flavor you attend as long as they are preaching the whole word of God you cannot go too far wrong. Then after six months of that, come back here and ask your questions. We will be glad to answer them for you.
Jakester is far more eloquent than I am with his comments. So I am not trying to offend you but rather to try and get you to understand where we (Christians) are coming from.

[ultimate_user_name]

Thank you for a much more reasonable answer donn.

I was raised in a private school, attended church at least twice a week, and could recite all the chapters of the bible.

Eventually I began straying from the traditional translation of the Bible, since a young age I have always had a problem with hell. This combined with several other things has made me have problems with the church, or any specific religion that claims to be the only way to God.

I have gone to both Church-of-Christ and Methodist churches. Both churches believed that baptism was the only way to be saved, saved from loneliness, separation from God, and hell. I had a problem with that.

In the Methodist church, I saw our pastor, the smartest and kindest person I have ever met, be driven out of the church by people that didn't wish to have a woman as a preacher. I was disgusted.

All in all, I've come to believe that any peace you can find, in any book, is the peace you should seek. And any peace you can find in any person, regardless of whether it's in church or not, is what you should seek.

But when I have tried to explain this view to our local church group, they are offended just as you are now. They think I am ignorant or that I am challenging the belief of God by challenging the existence of hell. Eventually I gave up trying to explain to them. Am I honestly the only person that think hell sounds unfair?

[sndbay]

With certainty I have found my peace.... With all love of heart and prayer... to be all that God created me to be. To have His hand of strength and His will to guide me. And to have evil bow and flee from me. In Christ name and glory forever and ever... My peace is in Christ.

Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law.

Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

[He is] the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he.

They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation

Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy Father thathath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.

When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.

As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.

He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock;
Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape.

But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.

They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.

The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men: Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the LORD hath not done all this.

For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.

O that they were wise, [that] they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!

How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?

For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves [being] judges.

For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter: Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.

Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?

To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted, Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, [and] to his people.

[jakester]

Buy whatever you want, I'm not trying to discredit a belief in God.

In fact I would like to know what makes some people really believe in Christianity, because to me the vast amounts of religions are fascinating, how are we to know which is right???

I'm not trying to be rude to anyone, and I'm sorry if I came across as bashing a belief in God. I think the Bible is confusing, if you can find some peace in it, then I am glad for you.

I have come to the conclusion that how you should act, and what you should believe should be pursued by the individual, but so many people are christians, so tell me. Why Christianity??? What about Christianity in particular appeals to you?? Do you think there is a hell or is it just a metaphor for Gods wrath?

I hope you find peace in yourself, and do not let internet conversations with strangers upset you.

To be clear, I do not believe that you are discrediting a belief in God solely; you are discrediting a belief in God based upon a biblical view... so yeah, you are discrediting the biblical belief in God. Am I wrong? It seems so clear to me that that is what you are doing, Nic... it's OK, you can concede that and I won't be mad at you for doing it.

Secondly, I am taking issue with what you said earlier because I do not believe you are sincere... I think you are portraying a sincere person but you have clearly stated your position on the bible and you don't believe it. So, I'm not upset but I do dislike contempt for the bible and followers of it being masked as sincerity... you are trying to convince me that you are sincere—maybe you really are, only God really knows—but I just don't believe you are.

Lastly, people often try to make Christians out to be irrational and goofy people who believe in a fairy-tale book... like Ned Flanders from the Simpsons. Well, I would be happier to offend someone who I thought was contemptuous of the bible and have to apologize for it later than to not say anything at all and have someone mock it and others. If I am wrong, I am confident in the God of the bible that he knows my heart and is forgiving and merciful to me, a sinner.

You ask what makes Christianity so special. Because it boasts of a God who forgives sin; who sent his son into this world to die for his people's sin; and who has promised one day to grant eternal life to those who have had their sins forgiven. No other religion rightly tells its followers what's wrong with them in a sobering way and gives them the hope that though they are evil, God is willing to be merciful to them. I suppose Nic, that the reason you don't see what's so special about Christianity is that you have not seen just how morally unworthy you are of God (myself included). If you had the eyes to see it, you'd be desperate for God's mercy. But perhaps that's reason; because you do not see is because you do not belong to God. I wish that you would become altogether as me and seek the mercy of Christ and see for yourself that being a disciple of Christ is the only hope in this world.

Thanks for the reddie, by the way. It shows me that I struck a nerve with you and likewise "I hope you find peace in yourself, and do not let internet conversations with strangers upset you."

[ultimate_user_name]

Jakester, I find your posts carry a tone of anger and sarcasm, and I have no doubt that's the way they were intended.

I am questioning the right of man to claim what God will and will not do, what God does and does not think, and the right of man to set rules by which to confine other men. If there is a hell, the first to burn will be those that have wrote false scripture to mislead their fellow man.

But God doesn't make mistakes, and God would not make a hell. So in my opinion someone lied, and until I know who's lying and who isn't, I will pursue my own path of truth, and I will question anyone that claims to know the will of God, or be able to channel his power, or who imposes rules upon the belief of God.

Another thread in this section is regarding a rule that you are not allowed to eat meat on Fridays, unless of course you're really hungry, or do some repenting and negotiating with God. This is exactly the sort of thing I am talking about.

You like the reddie jakester? Terrific, I'll give you a green later to balance it out.

sndbay, your post confuses me, the first half is interesting, the second half seems like scare tactics, are you saying that I will be burned and torn apart by wild dogs? Please summarize what you meant by that post.

[450donn]

Another thread in this section is regarding a rule that you are not allowed to eat meat on Fridays, unless of course you're really hungry, or do some repenting and negotiating with God. This is exactly the sort of thing I am talking about.

.

Please remember that this is a man made rule and does not stand up to any biblical teachings that I can find. Not all churches are as steeped in religious rules and ceremony as others. I too find pomp and ceremony rather distasteful and not what God is all about.

[sndbay]

sndbay, your post confuses me, the first half is interesting, the second half seems like scare tactics, are you saying that I will be burned and torn apart by wild dogs? Please summarize what you meant by that post.

The first half is my peace with Christ, it is knowing His love for His children. And it is His child wanting to do their Father's will, and allowing His greatness, power, and perfection to rule over them.

The second part was written by Moses at God's command. Telling Moses to teach a law that would bear witness to who God was, and what God's heart of love wanted for His children, and from His children.

It is also what God knew would come from evil...And how that evil would try to corrupt and destroy His children....

The vengeance that God speaks of is in sorrow for His children. What evil takes from them and their lives. And the provoked jealousy was for man putting themselves above Him, and introducing false teaching to His children.

This all tends to be somewhat as you are telling us. The false teaching and errors you have suffered. We as God's children are to be aware of this, and in patience, and suffering stand above it in confirmed love for Christ.

This written word is called the Song of Moses, and is spoken of in Revelation as being the song that those who remained firm and won in victory, they overcame evil, and are singing as they join Christ in heaven.

Please do not find it as a scare tactics, but with passion for what God warns us of evil... God's power and strength is there as a helping hand when you take it. And try not to judges the hearts of man, for they all suffer the same upon this earth, and can fall to deception because of lack of knowledge in God's Love.. and Word

[ultimate_user_name]

Thank you for your post :)

[galveston]

Ultimate, I'll be as brief as possible.
I think your problem comes from the current idea that there are NO absolutes.
Just as you could not build a house without some form of measurement, neither can you build a life, here or eternal, without some absolute reference.
You just have to decide what that reference is going to be.
The Bible has many internal proofs of its dependability. I recommend it because of that fact.
If you then arrive at that conclusion, then you will want to go directly to the Bible in serious study FOR YOURSELF, and you will see the errors of so many "experts" exposed and you will not be bothered by "man's interpretation".
Be honest with yourself and refuse to judge God and Jesus by other people's standard.

[inthebox]

You ask what makes Christianity so special. Because it boasts of a God who forgives sin; who sent his son into this world to die for his people's sin; and who has promised one day to grant eternal life to those who have had their sins forgiven. No other religion rightly tells its followers what's wrong with them in a sobering way and gives them the hope that though they are evil, God is willing to be merciful to them. I suppose Nic, that the reason you don't see what's so special about Christianity is that you have not seen just how morally unworthy you are of God (myself included). If you had the eyes to see it, you'd be desperate for God's mercy.


Jakester

Very well said.


---------------------------------------

Ultimate;

I think that until I saw myself as a sinner and its consequence in this life and for eternity, I did not take Hell or God or the Bible seriously - though I was raised in church and went to parochial schools.

When you read the gospels, it is the sinners - the adulterer the thief for example, or the sick that sought and saw Jesus Christ as God. Why? Because they were not in a position for pride to blind them. It was the rule makers and the rule followers that were blinded into thinking that they could earn their salvation.

Read Romans 7 and see if that speaks to you.


BTW how are you going to "find it on your own?"






G&P

[ultimate_user_name]

BTW how are you going to "find it on your own?"


Through your own experiences and morals. People that have been secluded from the rest of the world, have never been preached to, and have never read the Bible, always develop some sort of religion.

These religions are generally founded upon the rule "Do unto others as you would have them do to you". Despite extreme differences in society and daily life, justice to your fellow man, and the belief in an afterlife are present in all the religions I can think of (aside from those that are purposefully anti-Christian).

Something has been guiding people for ages, if you wish to turn to the Bible, then go ahead, some stories in there will tell you the same thing. The need to be separate from society and the large churches, and pursuit of your own connection with God are present in several instances in the Bible, several prophets, as well as Jesus, separated themselves intentionally at one point or another to help them concentrate on their connection with God.

To me that means you should looks PAST the big religions, disagreements, and general nitpicking, and decide what your belief in God really means to YOU. And me? Well, I don't believe in hell, it's just not something God would do in my eyes.

[jakester]

Very well said.

---------------------------------------

Ultimate;

I think that until I saw myself as a sinner and its consequence in this life and for eternity, I did not take Hell or God or the Bible seriously - though I was raised in church and went to parochial schools.

When you read the gospels, it is the sinners - the adulterer the thief for example, or the sick that sought and saw Jesus Christ as God. Why? Because they were not in a position for pride to blind them. It was the rule makers and the rule followers that were blinded into thinking that they could earn their salvation.

Read Romans 7 and see if that speaks to you.


BTW how are you going to "find it on your own?"


G&P

inthebox - thanks for stepping out and sharing your thoughts. To me, this is exactly the point to be made and why I have been as strong with my words towards ultimate as I have been. I have encountered enough people in my life who are relative in their thinking and who find the bible to be offensive because it claims an authoritative, absolute truth. In a relativistic society like America is, when we claim that the bible is the truth people dismiss it out of hand or come on a website like this and rant about how Zoroastrianism is the right way, even though he/she has already stated that men pervert the knowledge of God for their own purposes... to which I say, bunk; because if that is true then how is Zoroaster any less of a perversion. Basically, ultimate does not find the other attempts to explain God acceptable and even mocks them, but then exalts an age-old cultic philosophy of Zoroastrianism. How is that any less perverted, ultimate?

Ultimate, I don't hate you. If I could talk to you face to face over a cup of coffee, it would yield some better understanding of where each of us is coming from and why. All I am saying is that you have chosen the philosophy and teachings of Zoroaster and that satisfies your intellect and has given you a perspective on reality that fits for you. I have chosen the bible and the philosophy and teachings of Jesus Christ and that satisfies my intellect and has given me a perspective on reality that fits for me... (I am speaking as a relativist). You follow the teachings of a man you never met and likewise, I have never met Jesus. But yet we both are endeared to each person for our own reasons. It is logically possible that Zoroaster had it all wrong; it is logically possible that Jesus had it all wrong. You made your choice to follow Zoroaster and I made my choice to follow Christ.

Ultimately, how is your argument that men pervert the truth about God for their own purposes able to stand when you have chosen to follow the teachings of a man who is just as able to pervert the truth of God as the next? That is the point that I am trying to make and I hope I have done so successfully; all I want for you to see is the logic of your argument.

Please, does anybody else see it or should I shut down my laptop and pack it in for good?

Sincerely.

[ultimate_user_name]

Basically, ultimate does not find the other attempts to explain God acceptable and even mocks them, but then exalts an age-old cultic philosophy of Zoroastrianism.

Sorry, you missed it again >_< I was providing that information just to show where the first attempts at monotheism, and creating false scripture, began. Do you really think I follow Zoroastrianism? No, I was just providing that information to make other people think about all the people that have claimed to know exactly what's going on with God.

Ultimately, how is your argument that men pervert the truth about God for their own purposes able to stand when you have chosen to follow the teachings of a man who is just as able to pervert the truth of God as the next? That is the point that I am trying to make and I hope I have done so successfully; all I want for you to see is the logic of your argument.



-See above

[Akoue]

1. Many "Faith Healers" have been shown to be complete lunatics.

True.

2.Many cults have used religion as a way to control their members, and many horrible things have been done in the name of God.

Also true.

3.Whose job is it to say what God really wants? The Bible was written by many different men over a long period, and then men decided what books would go in, not God! There are many books that didn't make it in for some very questionably reasons.

You seem to propose a false dichotomy here. From the fact that humans were, and still are, involved in the Bible's composition and transmission it does not follow that God isn't also involved in a crucial way. Whose job is it to say what God wants? His Church.

The Bible can only be regarded as a nice book to read, a result of the spiritual journeys of people that lived in a different time and culture.

Again, from the fact that it CAN be regarded this way it doesn't follow that it can ONLY be regarded this way. Evidence for this is the fact that I don't regard it the way you describe here. Feel free to bring forward some agrument that I am mistaken not to do so.

4.Some people take it literally, but you surely can't take it all literally, there's parts about stoning women, slaughtering animals as sacrifice, etc, etc. If you get to pick and chose what parts of the Bible apply to you, then you're not taking it all literally, so you shouldn't take any of it literally.

Biblical literalists bug me too. The Bible doesn't even read itself literally.

5.The foundation of Christianity was set a long, long, long time ago by a man named Zoroaster. When he came around people were still worshiping many gods, they had a god for everything back then.

Zoroaster narrowed it down to two Gods, a good one and an evil one, the good one standing for truth and creation, "Ahura Mazda". He paved the way for monotheism everywhere. But we don't follow this religion, we've twisted and molded our own.

Ah, this old canard. Monotheism was alive and well long before Zoroaster came along. Judaism ante-dates Zoroastrianism by many centuries. What role do you take Zoroaster to have had in Christianity?

6.Even within monotheism, there are so many different kinds! And so many contradictions!

Sure, people disagree about things. What does this show other than that people disagree about things? This fact doesn't tell against Christianity any more than the fact that lots of people reject evolutionary theory tells against its truth.

Christianity (and all it's off branches)- they disagree about whether to baptize babies, whether it's OK to do anything on Sunday. Do you really think this nit-picking will cause you to go to hell?

See previous.

People have lots of opinions about all sorts of things. It's our job to sort through them and figure out which opionions are *merely* opinions. That's why people argue; it's a way of disqualifying bad ideas. We do the same thing in the sciences--and, well, pretty much everywhere.

Here you are at the pearly gates, you did everything right, uh-oh, but there's an error in your paperwork, seems you weren't baptized as a baby, and you ate a lot of pork, guess you're going to have to burn for eternity :(

Hinduism-
Islam
Buddhism
Chinese traditional religions
Sikhism
Shinto
Juche
Zoroastrianism (ya, remember him?)


These are all major CURRENT religions, having millions and millions of followers. Think about that for a second, if you (Christianity) are right, then 70% of the worlds population (at least, that's not counting Christians that screw up) is going to hell.

Oh yes, the comparative religions angle. Majorities can be honestly mistaken about religion just as they can be about science. Truth and popularity are two very different things.

[QUOTE 7. My problem with hell. This is one thing I can't let slide, I absolutely do NOT believe in a hell, [/QUOTE]

I believe you. Whatever floats your boat.

Picture hell, the smell of sulfur chokes you, fills your nostrils and lungs with acrid smoke. The flames are all around you now, because of the smoke and fire, you feel as though you are drowning and burning at the same time. You can't breathe, your in pain. You try rolling on the ground, but nothing can stop this fire. Only eternity left to go.

Can you think of ANYONE? That deserves this punishment for eternity? And from a "loving, merciful, and forgiving" God.

Yeah, that's a silly way to think about hell. Hell is just the utter absence of God, not a Hieronymous Bosch painting. And it's something one chooses for oneself. Hell is for those who reject God, so they're choosing it for themselves.

And what about the people raised into the wrong religion? Do you really send them to hell? They can't help where they were raised...

If they are invincibly ignorant then no, I don't think they'll go to hell.

8. MY SUMMARY: I don't see why Christianity is so special, anyone that does their best in the situation that they were raised gets to go to heaven in my book. I think that if God does have a "message" for you, that you will have to find it on your own, and that following the misconstrued ideas of man will only serve to confuse and bore you.

And which book is "your" book? Just your opinion? I'm sure you know what they say about opinions.

Not sure what "find it on your own" means. I agree that following misguided or mistaken ideas is a bad thing. That's why many of us work hard to discern which are the bad ones and which aren't.

May you all find your own peace...

And you as well.

[ultimate_user_name]

Whose job is it to say what God wants? His Church.

Is it really? Personally I think that everyone should decide for themselves what God wants them to do. If you let the church decide, you start jumping through all kinds of hoops. See topic about meat on Fridays.


Oh yes, the comparative religions angle. Majorities can be honestly mistaken about religion just as they can be about science. Truth and popularity are two very different things.

Thank you.


Ah, this old canard. Monotheism was alive and well long before Zoroaster came along. Judaism ante-dates Zoroastrianism by many centuries. What role do you take Zoroaster to have had in Christianity?


You could go back and forth and argue who really brought about the monotheistic revolution. Hinduism was around before Judaism, and an ancient Hindu proverb is: "God is one, but wise people know it by many names." You could argue along time about who came first and who had the most impact on other religions and people, many scholars do, I will choose not to get into that.

Again, from the fact that it CAN be regarded this way it doesn't follow that it can ONLY be regarded this way.

To read it literally is ignorant, you said so yourself.

Yeah, that's a silly way to think about hell. Hell is just the utter absence of God, not a Hieronymous Bosch painting. And it's something one chooses for oneself. Hell is for those who reject God, so they're choosing it for themselves.

An excellent point, I won't argue that. I'm not entirely sure what the punishment (hell) of God will be, I just don't believe in an eternal punishment.


And which book is "your" book? Just your opinion? I'm sure you know what they say about opinions.

Not sure what "find it on your own" means. I agree that following misguided or mistaken ideas is a bad thing. That's why many of us work hard to discern which are the bad ones and which aren't.

"My book" was just another way of saying "my opinion". I already made a post about finding things on your own. And how do you discern the bad ones, do you let others tell you which opinions are correct and which are incorrect? Do you allow others to set a guideline for your spiritual journey? You didn't seem like that person to me.

So if we don't know which are right and wrong, and taking someones' word for it would be just as ignorant, then surely this would mean we must find it BY OURSELVES.

"An absence of God chosen by those that reject him."

By your definition of hell, one which I am tempted to agree with, people will not simply go to hell for small mistakes, but only if they chose to live a life against God despite having knowledge of him.

Well this is perfectly reasonable, in fact it makes great sense. So where did all these other stupid rules come from? And why are people letting them dictate their lives. The answer, they came from man, often greedy men that wanted to have more power (old European popes could throw around some heavy political power, and most of them wanted more).

[Akoue]

Ah, this old canard. Monotheism was alive and well long before Zoroaster came along. Judaism ante-dates Zoroastrianism by many centuries. What role do you take Zoroaster to have had in Christianity?


You could go back and forth and argue who really brought about the monotheistic revolution. Hinduism was around before Judaism, and an ancient Hindu proverb is: "God is one, but wise people know it by many names." You could argue along time about who came first and who had the most impact on other religions and people, many scholars do, I will choose not to get into that.

Okay. But then I'm not sure why you brought it up.

Again, from the fact that it CAN be regarded this way it doesn't follow that it can ONLY be regarded this way.

to read it literally is ignorant, you said so yourself.

Notice that the rejection of literalism doesn't entail relativism. I reject literalism (which is also often intellectually lazy), but I don't endorse your claim that the Bible is only the record of the spiritual journey of some people who lived a long time ago.

I just don't believe in an eternal punishment.

That's fine. Some early Christian writers didn't either.

"My book" was just another way of saying "my opinion". I already made a post about finding things on your own. And how do you discern the bad ones, do you let others tell you which opinions are correct and which are incorrect? Do you allow others to set a guideline for your spiritual journey? You didn't seem like that person to me.

So if we don't know which are right and wrong, and taking someones' word for it would be just as ignorant, then surely this would mean we must find it BY OURSELVES.

This seems confused to me. I accept evolutionary biology, but I haven't done all the work *by myself* in order to confirm it. A accept that there are others with more authority than me on this subject, mostly because they are more knowledgeable than I am. Why wouldn't the same thing be true in religion? We have different levels of expertise. What's wrong with deferring to others who are more knowledgeable? Again, this is something we do in all areas of life, and it seems quite reasonable. (Of course, this doesn't mean that we oughtn't to make an informed and intelligent decision about who is knowledgeable and who isn't.)

By your definition of hell, one which I am tempted to agree with, people will not simply go to hell for small mistakes, but only if they chose to live a life against God despite having knowledge of him.

Right, small mistakes alone don't land you in hell. This is why Catholics and others distinguish between mortal and venial sins.

Well this is perfectly reasonable, in fact it makes great sense. So where did all these other stupid rules come from? And why are people letting them dictate their lives. The answer, they came from man, often greedy men that wanted to have more power (old European popes could throw around some heavy political power, and most of them wanted more).

I'm not sure which rules you believe to be the stupid ones, so I'm not sure how to answer your question. And whatever their failings in their personal or political lives, I am struck by the very good job that most popes have done in matters of doctrine. (I don't much care whether Pope X was a good guy; I care whether teachings were doctrinally sound.)

[ultimate_user_name]

This seems confused to me. I accept evolutionary biology, but I haven't done all the work *by myself* in order to confirm it. A accept that there are others with more authority than me on this subject, mostly because they are more knowledgeable than I am. Why wouldn't the same thing be true in religion? We have different levels of expertise. What's wrong with deferring to others who are more knowledgeable? Again, this is something we do in all areas of life, and it seems quite reasonable. (Of course, this doesn't mean that we oughtn't to make an informed and intelligent decision about who is knowledgeable and who isn't.)

I'm not talking about learning biology, you can learn biology by looking at stuff under a microscope, try finding your soul with a scalpel and a textbook. Just because someone is knowledgeable means they speak for God. That's the same logic that gets cults in trouble >_<

And whatever their failings in their personal or political lives, I am struck by the very good job that most popes have done in matters of doctrine.

I only have to pick up a history book to clarify this one for you. The joint corruption of the Church and State was horrible at those times (hence leading to laws that are implemented today that separate church and state :D ).