[mominflorida]

My 16 year old Son has decided he would like to live on his own. His Sister who is 18 has been asked to leave her father's house two days ago because she has been lying and stealing and refusing to help out at home or abide by the house rules. She has been defiant since she was 7. When she was a teenager I had to have the police come for her several times because she was raging at me. My Son is her great defender. He got into an argument with his father over his telling her to leave, and his father told him he if he thought she would give him a better life he was welcome to call her and have her pick him up and take care of him so he did. I adopted these children when they were 5 & 7. They are my brother's children by birth, and they are living with him now. When they came to live with me, they had not seen their mother in over a year, my mother had been raising them and had just passed, their father was young and confused and unable to care for them and we didn't see him for 7 years. They had a lot of loss at a very young age, but they had a stable life in a loving home, both before and after the adoption. I was a single mom, so life wasn't extravagant, but we always had food, clothing, and a comfortable home. I don't understand what happened. They went from such loving little kids, to angry hateful teenagers, and there is nothing we can do to get through to them. They complain that we don't have a nice house, we do, they complain that we don't have a nice car, we do. They complain that they can never do anything. When asked what it is that they can't do, the answer is "I don't know" We have traveled with them, we have always had dinner with them, we've played cards and board games, and read books together, swimming, rollerblading, biker riding together, fishing and four wheeling, we have offered them art lessons, music lessons, sports, scouts, Disney... If anything they were spoiled. We talk and we yell, we try to be compassionate, and understanding and we try being dictatorial. Nothing works with them. They are completely unmotivated, nothing excites them, and nothing scares them. I've been in counseling, I've taken them to counseling. We sent our daughter to boarding school hoping she would develop some self confidence and responsibility. Actually she is very confident, she thinks she can do anything and she doesn't need anybody, when she's not complaining that no one loves her or helps her with anything. LOL

I'm exhausted and so is their father. I'm afraid for them. I want them to be happy. I know all teens have some angst, but with these two it's constant, and now they think they can move out. They've decided they can do it all on there own, except they're not, they are staying with friends at their parents homes, planning to rent rooms, and trailers... Another thing is What's with these parents?? Who takes a kid in without speaking to the parents? I told them both that I wanted to speak to the parents of the people they say they are staying with tonight, and they didn't call back. My daughter did this last year. She was unhappy because her father wanted her to live by his rules, which I believe to be very fair. I told her she could not come here just because she mad at her Dad. I said she needed to clear up the trouble and then call me. Instead she called her girlfriend from boarding school and told her how unfair her life was. The mother of the girl friend offered her a place to live, without ever speaking to me, and it turned out badly. I couldn't believe she would tell her she could come there without having a conversation with me first. She wasn't there a month before she turned on her "bestfriend". She became critical and rude, and it was difficult for the whole family to live with her.

What are parents to do in this situation. I feel like I'm dealing with a couple of sociopaths. Oh My God, I just looked that word up and it describes them pretty closely. They are not maliciously violent, they have never hurt an animal, but they will get physical in a rage. They both lie right to your face, and I think they believe what they are saying. They show NO remorse for anything. They steal from our homes and have been know to take things from other peoples homes and even stores. They deny all of this of course.

I'm open to any ideas on what to do to help these two. I don't want to believe that there is no help. I know these kids are not hopeless. There is a good heart in both of them, they just need to learn to show it, and I've tried everything I know to help them. Thanks

[JoeCanada76]

First of all, being dictorial, yelling is only going to make things worse. Doing everything and spoiling them did make it worse. Their personal struggles with being raised by so many different people and different rules are very confusing to children. At the age of 5 and 7 something should have been done then. As far as the one that is 18, the 18 year old can do whatever they want. 16 year old not yet. Yes, it sounds as if the WHOLE FAMILY needs intervention. May I ask what kind of house rules did you set for them, and what kind of house rules did the father set?

[admartin]

You are in the same situation that I am in with my niece, my brother is a drug addict and her mother doesn't want her she is 17 and no matter what I do for her it is not good enough. We got her a limo for prom,a cell phone, clothes she came to me with one pair of pants and two tee shirts. She is rude to me my family my friends my daughter my pets and I am like you on my last leg I can't deal with anymore so I know how you feel but I don't have any advice just wanted to let you know you are not alone. And on top of all of that her and her boyfriend are trying to get pregnant what a disaster that will be I am on the very verge of telling her to get out

[mominflorida]

When they were very young they were back and forth between their parents and grandparents and there were no set bedtimes or general disicpline. When my mother said no, they ignored it and she ignored what they were doing. When they came to live with me I set bedtimes and waking times, we sat down to dinner together every night, had reading time before bed. Yes meant yes and no meant no. They lived with me for 8 years, so they had 8 years of consistancy. My daughter rebelled even at age 7. She was so strong willed, that there were times when I would have to call someone intervene to get her to stop arguing with me. If I said go to you room or sit on the couch, she ignored me. She would follow me around the house and beg or yell at me until I thought I'd lose my mind. No matter how many times I took her back to her room or the couch, she would get up and follow me. At other times she was the most delightful child on the planet. It was very frustrating. As they got older, it became more and more difficult. By the time she was 13 she was calling me before I got home to complain and yell at me on my cell phone. It was ridiculous. She was mean to her brother, called him names etc. I realize that there is pain and fear that causes this behavior, I have attempte counseling on many occasions. The counselors always told me that they were "beautiful, intelligent, well adjusted children" They were tested for learning disabilities, they ranked above average in IQ testing...

The rules we set are reasonable curfew and bedtimes. He says he wants our son in bed my midnight, and our daughter home my midnight. They refuse to comply. He stays up till 3 and she comes in at 4 then they sleep all day. They are evidently smoking and he suspects drug use. I know that they lie skillfully, so I can't believe them when they tell me they aren't. They are asked to treat the other family members with respect, by responding courteously when spoken too, no foul language, being helpful around the house. Be honest. No stealing. Our requests are not extreme. It is not unreasonable to want to live in peace and feel safe in your own home. .

All I can tell you is I live a quiet life, I believe in God, I have my own business, so I make my own hours , that gave me the freedom to be with them. I was home at night, drove them to school and picked them up, very little day care, I was a scout leader, etc... I rarely dated while they were with me.

Their father is married, has a good job and they just had a baby. They live in the country, with a creek on the property etc... It appears that we've done all the right things??

If I hadn't lived this, I wouldn't believe it possible to have a child who was impossible to work with. I swear to you she is like two people. One minute she's angelic, and the next her head spins around and you wouldn't recognize her as the same person. He does not have the extreme changes. He just dosen't seem to care one way or another about anything but his "friends" whose names he usually can't remember, or he forgets after being away from them for two weeks.

I am looking for a solution to this situation. Please write if you have any experience with this kind of problem. We all have opinions, and you may think me good or bad. You may agree or disagree with the methods I have employeed thus far. Judgement will do nothing to help our situation. If you have any information that will help me help my children. Please write and share it. Thank you

[valinors_sorrow]

Because I associate with people who are/were in trouble with addiction, I have seen many kids who were just like yours. I am not implying anything about you or their father here, okay? Its just they are common in recovery households, as you can imagine. The only successful methods I have witnessed working to turn these kids around were intensive intervention which sometimes included the child living in a separate environment. It also included retraining the parents so that they could better support the restructuring of the relationships. And when it failed in those cirsumstances, I understand secondhand that it was usually because the parents gave up and initiated early withdrawal.

I believe they came through the referral of a psychologist or psychiatrist after ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder) or what's called a "conduct disorder" was diagnosed. So if you are interested in this, you may have to begin with a professional who is expert in adoloescent behavorial problems. I am not sure if the 18 year old qualifies, but it certainly would be possible for the 16 year old.

That is all I know and its certainly not my firsthand experience but I am hoping it was in some way helpful.

[JoeCanada76]

I was not being judgemental. I was not saying good or bad. I was just stating the facts as I see them. All of the situations and circumstances that add up to contribute to their behaviour. It does sound that your ready to give up on them, and that will make things worse. No matter how stressful, no matter what is happening you need to show them that you love them and tell them that you will always be there for them. Many many teenagers goes through certain stages. These children are going through many more and it does I believe have to do with upbringing. The going back and forth all the time. Even with the 8 years of consistancy, there should be punishments in place and grounding in place when they do not follow the rules and the rules could be a lot tougher then I see. If you suspect drug use, and accuse them of it. The possibility of them not being involved yet being accused of it could make the experience worse. At the same time there should be a way to get both of them tested. In order to find out for sure how clean they are. Never ever give up on them. No matter how hard it may seem to deal with these sitautions. Again no yelling, no dictation. No matter what they are doing you are the parent and you need to lead by example. If they see you reacting a certain way they will immatate it. The WHOLE family does need intervention. Counselling. Individually set up and together as a whole would be good. If the children feel more comfortable opening up to somebody on one and one. All confidential. It would be beneficial. Do you know for a 100 percent sure that they steal? Did you ever caught them? If you did caught them then maybe you should have got the police involved. If they are living in your home, is it not naturally to use things that are in the home? What do you mean by stealing and what kind of things do you think they stole? Again no matter what these kids have done you need to show them that you love them and you will stand by them no matter what they do. That is unconditional love from a parent and they probably do not feel they have that right now?

This is not from first hand knowledge but just questions and advice and my own personal thoughts on this situation and what can be done to solve it.

Joe

[mominflorida]

Thanks for your replies.

ADmartin - I am so sorry you are having diffiulty with your niece too. It's very difficult to watch them acting out like this, to know they are in so much pain and to be helpless to change it when you'd give anything to take the pain away, and keep the rest of your family from suffering from it too. I pray that you and your family get the help you need before she is hurt any more. I can only tell you that telling her to get out has not been the answer for us. She can't take care of herself, so she comes back. We let her come home hoping that she sees things differently now that she's tried it out there on her own, but she comes back and it starts all over again. There has to be some help for these kids. Maybe we'll find it here.





Valinors_sorrow Senior Member

I appreciate your input. No offense taken. Yes, I can imagine that they are. When I was younger, I did too much drinking and I was involved with drugs, but that was almost 20 years ago. I'm not involved in a recovery program, I just grew up one day and decided that wasn't what I wanted in my life. Thank God it was that simple for me. I am a student of A Course in Miracles, and a strong believer in the teachings/principles of the 12 steps. I have been in counseling, and have had the kids in counseling. We have attended workshops together on releasing anger and fear, practicing forgiveness, I've taught them to meditate, and to chant, we've done transformational breath and hypnosis. We tried having her live in a separate environment. She was at a "therapeutic" boarding school for 18 months. In hind-sight there are better schools than the one I chose, but she did have that experience. I've changed their diet, given them nutritional supplements, I've tried everything but prescription medication, because I don't believe in drugs, prescription or otherwise. But I'm at the point now where I'm thinking that my refusal to consider this option may actually be detrimental to them. Thanks again for your input and advice, I will look into ODD and try to get their father to find a professional up there who will be able to help them.

[mominflorida]

I was not responding directly to you. I was reading lots of responses to previous posts, and there was a lot of judgement in them across the board. I was sending a general statement to all who read.


I'm never going to "give up on them" but I'm thinking maybe it is time I stand back and let them make a go of it one their own. I do love them, and I'm starting to believe that always being here for them might be a dis-service to them. At some point they need to be made accountable for their own actions, and if I keep looking the other way am I helping them? Am I a bad mom if I expect them to behave with respect, for themselves and for others? I know it sounds ridiculous to say the I couldn't ground my 7 year old, but what do you do when the child won't stay in her room? I read all the books, I took her back in the room, and gently closed the door and walked away, it became a game and it would go on for hours, with her getting louder and louder, fighting me harder and harder, and staying in her room for shorter and shorter times, she wore me down, I never wore her out. I swear to you, I did everything I know how. We went to counseling, we wrote contracts, she forgot what they said before she signed them. I'm not saying I was perfect at parenting, I probably wasn't even good at it. But I did the best I could. Whether that was enough is immaterial at this point. All that matters at this point is what we can do now. We have been in counseling on several different occasions, individually and as a family. It has kept me sane, but it has not done anything but anger the kids. If you have a specific suggestion on who to see, I'd love to hear it. Yes I have caught them stealing money, and so has their father. I have suspected her of shop lifting in the past,and she recently stole earrings from Target while she was with her stepmother and told her later. One time there was money missing from a friends house after we had visited. The kids were in the family room with her son, and he left them alone for a while and left his wallet on the floor. They swore they didn't take it, and it was dismissed as the boy mistaking the amount that was in his wallet, shortly there after money went missing from my bedroom.

WE have been through a lot together, and I have always been here to love and support them. I'm starting to believe there is a difference between unconditional love and enabling. I don't want to be the later.


I was not being judgemental. I was not saying good or bad. I was just stating the facts as I see them. All of the situations and circumstances that add up to contribute to their behaviour. It does sound that your ready to give up on them, and that will make things worse. No matter how stressful, no matter what is happening you need to show them that you love them and tell them that you will always be there for them. Many many teenagers goes through certain stages. These children are going through many more and it does I believe have to do with upbringing. The going back and forth all the time. Even with the 8 years of consistancy, there should be punishments in place and grounding in place when they do not follow the rules and the rules could be a lot tougher then I see. If you suspect drug use, and accuse them of it. The possibility of them not being involved yet being accused of it could make the experience worse. At the same time there should be a way to get both of them tested. In order to find out for sure how clean they are. Never ever give up on them. No matter how hard it may seem to deal with these sitautions. Again no yelling, no dictation. No matter what they are doing you are the parent and you need to lead by example. If they see you reacting a certain way they will immatate it. The WHOLE family does need intervention. Counselling. Individually set up and together as a whole would be good. If the children feel more comfortable opening up to somebody on one and one. All confidential. It would be beneficial. Do you know for a 100 percent sure that they steal? Did you ever caught them? If you did caught them then maybe you should have got the police involved. If they are living in your home, is it not naturally to use things that are in the home? What do you mean by stealing and what kind of things do you think they stole? Again no matter what these kids have done you need to show them that you love them and you will stand by them no matter what they do. That is unconditional love from a parent and they probably do not feel they have that right now?

This is not from first hand knowledge but just questions and advice and my own personal thoughts on this situation and what can be done to solve it.

[talaniman]

Sometimes as hard as we try as parents we always seem to fall short and blame ourselves for the bad behavior of our children. Your daughter will have to learn the lessons of life on her own, but your son is still at home so his next cut-up should be met by the strictest punishment possible even if the police get involved. Social services, has failed if they have not gotten him the counseling he needs. You've been through a lot I know so don't give up and don't be afraid to get the police or courts involved, if that's the only help you can get. Tough love is sometimes the only means we have to help our children to grow in life. I also think there are to many underlying issues here to be solved in a paragraph with out strong professional help, even if it means changing counsellors.

[valinors_sorrow]

I offer this now very very gently as just an idea to consider, a possible clue. When people experience repeated failure in solving a specific problem some strange things can take place, patterns can sometime emerge. One of the oddest things that can occur is people decide, subconsciously, along the way that its just unsolvable even though different solutions are still being sought. Its usually because it's a problem that is unthinkable to "give up" on and so a kind of drive to solve no matter what sets in. But that subconscious decision has set up a conflict deep within, a very subtle but sometimes powerful one, where every time the solution fails, the person gets to be right. I am NOT saying this is you, in fact only each of us could say for certain if this was us. But with a long list of failed solution attempts in this, it just may be worth a look. I only speak of this now because I have known that sort of trap firsthand and it caused me a great deal of trouble. God knows, you have been through a lot here. And it's a understandable fact that people who are sick and crazy often make the loved ones around them a little sick and crazy too. Mavbe you've been so focused on the trying of the next thing that you've lost some perspective along the way and it may pay off to stop, take a deep breath, take a break even and then look anew? I applaud you for not giving up when so many might have by now. I hope not to offend and wish only to be helpful with this too.

[phillysteakandcheese]

I'm starting to believe there is a difference between unconditional love and enabling.

I've seen many of the same things with my step-children... and I've quoted you above because this is exactly the epiphany I had to have.

I absolutely love my kids, but I will not "do anything" for them. I want to take care of them and make sure they are all right, but I will not allow them to "do anything" they want. It's a very complex dynamic, but if I can simplify it, I'd say that you cannot permit them to hold you hostage with their behaviour.

It is a very frustrating situation and it seems like it's not getting better, but you still have to continue to seek help for them and for yourself - that's a parent's job. At 18, if they cannot live by the rules of you house, they need to leave - as your daughter has.

[mominflorida]

Thank you all for your insight and advice. I will consider it all and do as you suggest. I will take a step back and breathe, then reconsider the options available. Maybe a few days on their own will give them some insight too. Pray for us that all will be well, and they will stay safe. Peace, Kim