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    vwdieseljunkie's Avatar
    vwdieseljunkie Posts: 107, Reputation: 13
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    #1

    Jan 13, 2009, 09:37 PM
    Christia-budda-musli-wicca what?
    Why do people argue religion when neither side of the argument has actual, bonafide proof?

    Being raised by a predominantly christian family, having attended a catholic school, and resorting to the most generic and dirty form of paganism to call as the closest thing to my own beliefs... I have seen a lot. I have heard a lot. I have learned a lot. Most of all, I have learned that each individual person, when separated from the mob, cannot commit to any one thing with absolution. This is a bit abstract, sure, and used vaguely, sure. But which one of your gods has come down lately and held your hand and told you that you are the one that is doing right by him/her/whatever? eh, eh, careful now. If you can positively answer that question... ah never mind, the padded-room joke is played out.

    The short of it still boils down to each to their own. Even though it usually means "yeah, i believe what these folks believe, and I'm part of the group, yay!" and then they move to the next group and "oh yeah, I believe what you believe, too, yay! I'm part of your group, yay"... then there's the moment of realization that you can be an individual in both groups and play the game called "yay I agree with both groups even though the groups absolutely disagree... yay" I'm so special! See how special I am!

    Fickle. Everyone wants to be special, or to be accepted, or to have something over on the next person. Sometimes its your car, or your house, or even your spouse. But religion does get to be the weapon of choice sometimes. It's nothing new though, right? Crusade anyone? Let's bring back the "convert or die" routine again... oh, wait, that's right, that conflicts too heavily with the "all should die but us" war that is so delightful these days. Either you choose religion to be an individual and stand out, or you let your religion be chosen for you and are denied individuality, or you simply go with the flow because of the fellowship it provides and social networking... or is it because of the cake and cookies? Hmmmm...

    What about the ancient religions? Remember? God's, and demi-gods, the polytheist's fun stuff! Where the Gods could be replaced in their positions by other gods, each had their own responsibilities and duties. God of this, goddess of that. Then there were the wars between the gods! Wow, that must have been a show! C'mon, you remember reading about them! The Greeks, the Norse, the Egyptians and the all the folks in the middle east like Sumerians and Babylonians. At least back then you didn't have a hard time believing, because the gods were actually there. Oh wait, those same gods were also fornicating with us on a regular basis, too. Maybe that is what they meant by divine intervention?

    Moving on, god hasn't been around in a while... people that actually remember first hand, they have all perished. Now we are down to the masses trying to find those who were told about what the gods were like and what was the plan. Hey! All of a sudden, if you say you remember, you sure are mighty important! If you knew god's plan, it was your responsibility to share it with the rest of the heathens! Yeah, that only lasted so long, because with that importance came power and next thing you know they are calling themselves priests, but why not? God hadn't come down and zapped'em. You aren't in trouble until you get caught, right? Well, even that didn't last long either, because once they have told their side of the "story" about what god wanted and all, and there was some documentation being made of this, all of a sudden you had to keep your stories strait. If what you said this year didn't match up with last year, hey... something fishy is going on... Or you try to step up out of the crowd and say something new or to debunk what has become accepted, Heretic! Burn'em!

    What's going to happen when it actually happens, if it happens in our lifetime, and GOD(in whatever form/gender/singular/plural) comes home and the reaction is "what the hell!?!" All religions are basically screwed. None of us know for sure we have it right. We have no untainted texts to provide absolute direction for us that hasn't been damaged by man for their own selfish purposes at some point in history. What has been written by man can not be trusted and you all know that because you all know that given the opportunity, you'd hit it with some magic eraser here and there if you could and swap a few words around. Especially with not being able to look any of these writers in the face, text in hand, and say "you sure they said that?"

    Perfect example. The always happy, seemingly-content and cheerful, "doing-god's-will" door knockers that used to visit my house (evidently there's a do-not-knock list, and I've been put on it) and wanted to talk about the Bible. I like the Bible. I've read it several times. I always invited them to share with me in the book of Genesis. "Oh, no, don't want no part of that, we want to talk about the New Testament." Now wait a minute, I read my books from the beginning like all the rest of the western world. Then I hit them with some hard questions. "What's this about the Nefilim and the sons (plural) of god taking a fancy to the daughters of man? What was born to them? I tell you, no spine. No spine at all. Start pointing out the verses they've obviously never paid attention to and the gloves come off! Yahweh? Isn't that plural too? Let US make man in OUR image? What about the verse that talks about the Giants that roamed the earth? Yeah, they don't like "spreading the word" unless they are the ones in charge of what get's spread.

    Are we ever going to pull our selves up above this as a society, as a race, as a species? We're doomed. Or is 2012 actually going to be our doomsday because everyone is going to be so freaked out, just like in 2000, that something unverifiable might happen? Hey, let's just kill ourselves and everyone else we can in anticipation of what we don't know is going to happen! And call it in the name of religion, yeah, doesn't that sound grand?
    Somewhere, I have the feeling that there will be a indiscript man, holding a sign that says "the end is near" just like in the movies, and in his hand will be a transmitter with a little red button for "just in case" the doomsday prophesy was wrong, so he can make it right, or at least BE right. We really are our own worst enemy, and our only salvation. But salvation takes effort, so pass the cake and cookies, I need to belong somewhere.

    Oh, my final question, why does everyone get so uptight and wound up when someone claims to believe in contradicting things that they cannot prove or disprove? If you have your own belief that even you cannot 100% verify if given the burden of proof, why do you care what any other bozo believes? What if bozo's right and you're wrong? Chew on that for a while. Just don't know, do you?

    [/soapbox]
    450donn's Avatar
    450donn Posts: 1,821, Reputation: 239
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    #2

    Jan 14, 2009, 07:35 AM

    So after that long winded speech what exactly is the question?
    I believe in the one true God, The God of the old and new testament. If you believe in that God then you have to believe in the Bible. If you doubt either then you doubt both. I have no problems with that. It is far easier for me to believe in God than it is to believe that man evolved from some cosmic dust and grew into a fish that crawled out onto the dry land and grew legs. I do not believe that any religious organization that has to produce a companion book to the bible to tell people to believe is a true religion, it is a cult.
    So again where in all of your comments is the real question you have?
    vwdieseljunkie's Avatar
    vwdieseljunkie Posts: 107, Reputation: 13
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    #3

    Jan 14, 2009, 05:16 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by 450donn View Post
    So after that long winded speech what exactly is the question?
    Added some bold for you there, choose one or all, It's up to you. The more the better.

    Quote Originally Posted by 450donn View Post
    I believe in the one true God
    That's awesome. How did you come to that realization?

    Quote Originally Posted by 450donn View Post
    If you believe in that God then you have to believe in the Bible
    The King James Bible? The multi-canonized, incomplete, edited for content husk of a text that we have left today? Or the Ancient Hebrew?

    Quote Originally Posted by 450donn View Post
    It is far easier for me to believe in God than it is to believe that man evolved from some cosmic dust and grew into a fish that crawled out onto the dry land and grew legs.
    Well, unfortunately evolutionary theory is allowed to be part of the education we have today treated as though it were fact. Evolution, macro-evolution to be more specific, has yet to be proven with archeological findings. Micro-evolution alone doesn't give a convincing solution. Interesting reading, yes, but provable? Well, about as provable at this point as the omnipotent one. Until the missing link is found or God comes home, they still fall into the personal belief or theory category.

    Quote Originally Posted by 450donn View Post
    I do not believe that any religious organization that has to produce a companion book to the bible to tell people to believe is a true religion, it is a cult.
    But... who wrote the Bible to tell people to believe? As far as that goes, the books that were allowed into the Biblical Canon were decided by people to suit their needs, for what they felt was in the best interest for their particular religion. They CHOSE what they were to believe and discarded the rest. By your own comment then, Christianity is a cult. Right?

    And yes, I admit, I am the worlds worst about being long-winded. But I am searching for intelligent answers. Blind faith doesn't cut it for me nor does "organized" religion.
    450donn's Avatar
    450donn Posts: 1,821, Reputation: 239
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    #4

    Jan 15, 2009, 08:11 AM

    Then all I can offer you is my prayer that you find the answers you are searching for. I have issues with many many denominations and their teachings. You always have to start with a question before you can search out an answer.
    For me it was far easier, I knew in my heart that there was a God, just did not understand fully how to reach him until 1973.
    JSingle911's Avatar
    JSingle911 Posts: 35, Reputation: 8
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    #5

    Jan 15, 2009, 08:29 AM

    vwdieseljunkie:

    Before I attempt to answer, let me just say I love your name, as I am a VW diesel lover myself.

    I think people get so worked up because they feel they have found their answer to the unknown. Much of human history can be at least partially attributed to our fear of the unknown: exploration, the need to build fire, making of weapons. People who have found and are confident in their religion are now free from the worst unknown (what happens when we die). You'll notice that no religion fails to deal with the afterlife, so that is very comforting to most people. When someone tries to change or negate their beliefs, they are afraid of the whole structure crumbling, and can't allow it to happen. I have had many discussions with many denominations of true believers about why they believe, and of course none of them have proof; it's a feeling. That's why I find it hard to debate fundamentalists about the origins and evolution of man, because even though I disagree with most everything they say, their pillars of belief are built to be unshakable. All we can do, as scientists, humanists, atheists, whatever you happen to be, is continue to search for natural truth, and try hard to spread that truth to others and combat ignorance. Don't browbeat them, but offer to explain things to them that they might not have considered. You may change some minds, and you may not, but nobody can say you didn't try.
    450donn's Avatar
    450donn Posts: 1,821, Reputation: 239
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    #6

    Jan 15, 2009, 08:43 AM

    How many times have scientists spend untold amounts of energy trying to prove/disprove something only to discover that their answer fits exactly what the Bible already said?
    vwdieseljunkie's Avatar
    vwdieseljunkie Posts: 107, Reputation: 13
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    #7

    Jan 15, 2009, 09:08 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by JSingle911 View Post
    vwdieseljunkie:

    Before I attempt to answer, let me just say I love your name, as I am a VW diesel lover myself.
    Addicting, aren't they?

    As for your comment, I do very much agree all the points you have made. I have just always had a conflict with the concept of blind faith as a basis for belief. I have never been able to accept "because god or any other diety (or the bible, or any other writings of man) says so" as a reasonable, much less definitive, answer. It hasn't been for lack of trying to understand, just a lack of compelling evidence.

    I don't claim to be atheist, agnostic, nor even ignostic, though I have been accused of those and worse. I don't even claim to be pagan though it seems to be a catch-all that I seem best suited for by opinion of others, and quite frankly I do live what would be considered a paganistic lifestyle.

    I simply have no subscriptions, I guess you could say, to any of the main stream religions due to the flaws they all seem to be based upon. If you cannot prove what you believe, how can you have faith in what you do not know?
    JSingle911's Avatar
    JSingle911 Posts: 35, Reputation: 8
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    #8

    Jan 15, 2009, 09:12 AM
    450donn:

    Do we really need to do this?

    Science has furthered our understanding of the natural world.

    I wouldn't say the Bible has hindered scientific progress, but religion has. Galileo Galilei was declared a heretic and ordered imprisoned for merely figuring out that the Earth wasn't the center of the universe. His theory was declared contrary to the Holy Scriptures. That is unconscionable and unforgivable to me.

    Psalm 104:5 , "the LORD set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved."
    Wrong.
    450donn's Avatar
    450donn Posts: 1,821, Reputation: 239
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    #9

    Jan 15, 2009, 10:15 AM

    Didn't say that either. What I said was that after all of the scientific studies it is amazing how often that the conclusion they come up with matches the bible exactly!
    JSingle911's Avatar
    JSingle911 Posts: 35, Reputation: 8
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    #10

    Jan 15, 2009, 10:18 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by 450donn View Post
    Didn't say that either. What I said was that after all of the scientific studies it is amazing how often that the conclusion they come up with matches the bible exactly!
    I must confess I'm not familiar with a lot of these cases. Could you give me some examples?
    Credendovidis's Avatar
    Credendovidis Posts: 1,593, Reputation: 66
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    #11

    Jan 15, 2009, 05:01 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by vwdieseljunkie View Post
    Why do people argue religion when neither side of the argument has actual, bonafide proof?
    1 - Why do people argue about ANYTHING when neither has (or has not) actual, bonafide proof ?
    2 - Why should people REQUIRE actual, bonafide proof to argue about anything ?
    3 - What is actually to you the CLEAR DESCRIPTION of "actual, bonafide proof" ?
    4 - Why should people NOT argue about whatever seems important and/or interesting to them, regardless of supporting proof ?

    Are you perhaps suggesting general censorship? Where is that Freedom of Speech Americans are so proud of and wellknown for ?

    :)

    .

    .
    vwdieseljunkie's Avatar
    vwdieseljunkie Posts: 107, Reputation: 13
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    #12

    Jan 15, 2009, 06:30 PM
    1. Insufferable selfishness (of course that would just be my opinion)
    2. Because in the presence of actual, bonafide proof, the argument is over
    3. Physical evidence. Irrefutable, undeniable, physical evidence.
    4. Why argue what you know is unique to you? No two people will share the identical faith, as it is subjective and left to individual translation.

    Censorship? Freedom of speech? The simple fact that I have posted opinion on a website in search for response shows that I am requesting the exact opposite cencorship. You can do better than that.

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