[asking]

Hi
I have been doing some simple faucet repair in the last week. But after I turned off the water to the bathtub using older style shut off valves under the tub, I could not turn them back on. (No water to the tub.) One shutoff valve handle turns without ever stopping, while the other turns only a few degrees in either direction and then stops.

Can I repair these myself? Or do they need to be replaced by a plumber? (It's a very tight workspace and I doubt I could solder in new valves.)

Also, why would these valves stop working? They were installed in a new house 17 years ago and have never been used until I turned them off. One use seems strange for one valve, let alone two.

Thanks for any advice.

[massplumber2008]

Hi Asking...

I assume you have copper pipes and stop and waste valves much like the picture below... yes? Just that yours are older...

If you have a slightly different, larger shutoff then may be that you have gate valves instead of stop and waste valves. These valves can take forever to turn in and out... sometimes 15 turns or more. Otherwise, that valve that spins is shot.

The other shutoff that only turns so much each way... use a pair of pliers and see if you can get it to move either way a bit... may be that you can break that sediment that is cuaisng trouble.

Do you have hard water? Hard water can wreak havoc on certain kinds of materials. There have been more than a few times that I have successfully shut a shutoff off only to open the shutoff and have it spin in circles just like yours is doing.

Sounds like you need to replace them for sure! They sell SHARKBITE shutoffs (pic.#2)that simply push over copper pipe to make a seal... easy to install if you have a mini tibing cutter (see pic.#4). They also sell sharkbite elbows (pic.#3) and couplings... just need to purchase a couple feet of 1/2" copper tubing TYPE L, some plumber's sandcloth (to clean ends of pipe) and you should be able to do this.

Another brand name similar to sharkbite is GATORGRIP... I think. These are the same thing and both work very well.

If you want soldered shutoffs then may be a good idea to call in a plumber... most will make short work of this problem!

Let me know if want to discuss more...

MARK

[asking]

Thanks, massplumber!
My valves look like the one on the far left, round knob. The valve says 125 1/2 on the side, so I assume it's a half inch valve. My water is VERY hard, lots of iron, manganese, and other stuff. The ozone filter system was not working properly for about six months, so the water was especially bad. I have since had a big carbon filter installed, which has helped a lot.

I loosened the valve that's stuck and now it turns without turning on the water either.

I didn't realize there was a way to replace the valves without heat. I will think this over. I can get the cutter, sandpaper. Only problem is that workspace is super tight. In fact, each valve is between two tight turns, so might be hard for me to do. My favorite plumber retired, but I guess I will call his partner.

Incredibly helpful answers. Thanks!

[letmetellu]

Quote: Massplumber had this information in his answer to your question.

If you have a slightly different, larger shutoff then may be that you have gate valves instead of stop and waste valves. These valves can take forever to turn in and out....sometimes 15 turns or more. Otherwise, that valve that spins is shot.

When a valve fails like the one you are describing you can disassemble that vavle, take out the gate that has come apart, put the nut and stem back in it and it will let the water go through. It can not be used anymore to turn the water off but you can get water.

These valves were required in my area for a while but they gave so much trouble that the city cahnged the rules. But if you live in a condiminium, where there may be only one water suppling the entire building, I think you are still required to have that valve in working order.

[asking]

Thanks very much letmetellu.

I have such a gate valve outside my house (it's just a private residence on a well). I know because I had to turn it a lot to shut the water off to the house. But the valves under the tub turned off with only a few turns, just not back on. I think I've turned them 50 times each, and nothing happens. They never stop.

If I can disassemble this valve as you say, I would like to try that, as I do not really need a separate shutoff at the tub. How can I tell if it's "slightly different, larger"? I mean how can I tell if it's amenable to this approach?

Thanks.

[massplumber2008]

Hi all...

Here is a picture of a DISK TYPE gate valve cross section...

In this case, the disk screws up and down the threaded shaft of the stem to seat into the appropriate groove and shuts the water. When broken at the threaded shaft the DISK gets lodged in place and can not be removed easily.. if at all. MAYBE, if you had it the shutoff on a bench... maybe you could remove that disk.. if it could even be removed... ok?

If this gate valve is a WASHER TYPE gate valve, then you may be able to remove guts and simply discard faulty part and then reassemble the shutoff.

The disk type shutoff usually has a much wider middle to accommodate the disk... but hard to tell for sure as they just make so many different kinds of valves.

Anyway, if you want to try to disassemble the shutoff you will need to use two pliers/wrenches and hold the shutoff body with one plier/wrench while backing off the bonnet assembly with the other plier/wrench (see 2nd picture).

These can be difficult to disassemble, especially in a tight space as you indicated you had... but if going to need to replace anyway it makes sense to me to try this first...;)

If you are successful at removing the disk/washer assembly and want to reassemble the shutoff be sure to wrap 4-5 wraps of teflon tape around the bonnet assembly threads before you reassemble the shutoffs.

Let us know how you make out here...

MARK

[asking]

I'm going to assume that if I leave the valve in place -in the copper line -- I don't have to worry about holding the bottom half against myself with a separate wrench. I have to put this off until later today, so let me know if this is wrong.

Thanks so much for your help. Your advice and pictures have been invaluable.

I also googled "gate valve failure" which was instructive.
Valve engineering - Gate Valve failure modes

[massplumber2008]

Nope... you MUST hold against yourself! The pipe could break off above or BELOW the floor when torquing on the plier/wrench like you will need to do here.

It takes a pretty great force to undo those bonnets.

Be careful here... ;)

MARK

[asking]

Ok, thanks! Myself is safely outside the boxed-in tub and the two valves are inside, so this may be beyond me. I'll see what I can do...