[arcura]

cozyk
Thanks.
I agree with LBeaucare mostly except for his statement about debates such as this one.
I find them to be very beneficial in several ways.
I don't know about others, but I'm old, with a bad heart and legs so I can not be out and around helping people as I once did.
But I can be here on the computer trying to be of help for others regardless of what LBeaucare believes or says about being here.
I think others are here for their own reasons and I do not know what they are.
Neither does LBeaucare .
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

What about the ONE rule that is most important according to Christians. You can only enter the kingdom of Heaven through Jesus.

You are lumping all Christians together and dumping them into the same bucket. Only the conservative/fundamentalist Christians hold that belief with no wiggle room allowed.

[cozyk]

From Arcura
God knows everything about everyone including what is in their history, hearts, souls and minds.

Now, THAT is what I've been waiting for.

[arcura]

WonderGirl,
Yes Jesus is the only way to heaven BUT he is the judge, no one else is.
That is the difference between dennominations
Some think that they can judge even themselves by saying "I am saved".
Only Jesus can and will determine that, not anyone else so the bible tells us.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[cozyk]

Jesus is God.He is our father because His name is Everlasting Father Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God,
[COLOR="Blue"

You ask... Imagine a person that has led an exemplary nearly flawless life. Did all the right things because that's just who he is. The only thing is, he is jewish. Now, because he does not believe Jesus is the messiah, he is going to hell. That's what you are saying to me.?

Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: Huh???

11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; What???

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
I THINK i get this. People that are good just because it's the right thing to do, not because it was told to them?

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Scripture is written in such circles that it takes so much effort to figure out what is being said. :confused:

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.:confused:

You also write... Another example - you have given your child a choice to follow your rules or not. IF they do, then you welcome them home. (Heaven)
If they don't, you will not allow them into your home.
In fact, not only can you not come home but I am going to send you to an awful place where you will be tortured and burned forever. Remember I still love you though.

It is not where God sends us , but it is where we choose to be.
Pure semantics.

Hell is simply the absence of God and it is my choise to decide if I want to be with Him or not!
That's more like it. I've been trying to say that the literal description of hell that many christians believe in is a fire-ey inferno.
That is why you have to be careful spewing out literal interpretations. I spent much of my childhood in anguish thinking that my dead grandfather had been tossed into this inferno. The pain of the burning never stopped becase he couldn't eventually die and the agony would stop. He was feeling it every minute, every day, for eternity.COLOR]

I have a question for you...
What has God done to you that you false accuse Him so hard for things that He is not to blame?
I don't blame God. I blame the christian background that left me living in fear and worry for people who were not like we were.

Do you think you have more wisdom than Him?Do you think your righteousness is better than His?
Heck no. But I do have a few questions for him when I get there. I also don't think he is angry that I question, I think he may be proud.


Is your love greater than His?
Now you answear the hard questions![/QUOTE]
I'd say he loves a lot more people than I do for sure.
Have I answered your hard questions? If not, let me have it.

[JBeaucaire]

cozyk
Thanks.
I agree with LBeaucare mostly except for his statement about debates such as this one.
I find them to be very beneficial in several ways.
I don't know about others, but I'm old, with a bad heart and legs so I can not be out and around helping people as I once did.
But I can be here on the computer trying to be of help for others regardless of what LBeaucare believes or says about being here.
I think others are here for their own reasons and I do not know what they are.
Neither does LBeaucare .
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, just call me JB... hehe.

I apologize if I managed to push the "doesn't matter" concept too hard in my post because it wasn't the main point.

Also, the image of people locked away debating things was, as you've pointed, full of exceptions. Forgive my short-sightedness.

I spend a lot of time in the relationships forums offering assistance and counsel, so I do exactly as you suggest myself, and you're right... it does help others.

My only issue is with the adversarial tone debates like this can take, and I'm mostly worried the topic itself is used in people's minds to discount the concept of pursuing Godly values... all because they can find fault with the other "believers" and how they pursue those beliefs.

That's my main point. It is a common debate tactic to find a fault (or perceived fault) with someone and offer it as a means to discount the entire person or their whole point of view. Very common, legal practices are founded on this ability. Ugh.

That's why I think rule #3 in my original post has to be our abiding principle... simply saying "Follow Rules #1 and #2 in all things". Anything less is our humanism mucking things up.

So, let the debate ensue, but let none doubt in the meantime that our understanding of how and why God does things is NOT required for them to still be better than our way of thinking and doing them. But we should still strive to understand them, nonetheless.

[arcura]

JB,
Thanks for that.
You are right, people do use tactics in a debate, several of them.
But let the debate continue.
Some here get shut down that I think should not have been.
They were frustratingly left hanging in limbo when they could have been completed or nearly so.
Oh well, so it goes. Everyone to his own opinion.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[DoulaLC]

What about the ONE rule that is most important according to Christians.
You can only enter the kingdom of Heaven through Jesus.
I believe in Jesus. I believe there is a good chance that he "died for our sins" even though I still think God could have come up with a better plan.
You keep missing my point. According to Christians, even if you spent your time on this earth doing good works, but you just believed Jesus was a good example, not the son of God, you go to hell. I don't believe this and I don't understand how any rational thinking person would think hell was meant for these people.

This is a topic that many have trouble with. I think, as Wondergirl mentioned, many don't hold to this belief in a literal sense.

There's the idea that there is not just one way... given that there are so many people who simply do not hold the same beliefs... it seems a bit arrogant for one group to think they hold the only answer. It may be the only answer for them, but a different way may be followed by someone else.

Someone born and raised in Iran, for example, will likely believe something totally different from someone born and raised in Japan. Does one hold the only answer? Someone born and raised within a tribe in Ghana may never have been exposed to any sort of organized religion, but will hold their own beliefs instead... so are they counted out?

I have my own beliefs that align pretty much with how I was raised... as is likely the case with the majority of people. Sure some people do actually study various religions and decide for themselves what to believe or follow. They may choose not to follow any at all, or decide their beliefs don't fit exactly into any particular religion, but most people likely believe what they believe simply from being born into the family that they were. If they had been born elsewhere, there is a good chance they would believe something very different. There may be some influence along the way from family, friends, spouses, etc. but you often won't change someone's core beliefs. A Christian is not likely going to change the beliefs of a Muslim anymore than a Muslim will convert a Christian.

The core teachings of religion is basically the same regardless of which one it is... the golden rule transcends throughout... and that holds true whether someone believes in a religion or not... believes in God or not... believes in an afterlife or not... believer, agnostic, or atheist alike. There may be a good, even purposeful, reason for that.

[arcura]

DoulalC,
History records that many people have changed there belief from one to another. In some cases thousands have done so all at one time.
Then there are those who believe that there are several ways to heaven.
I believe that Jesus IS the way but HE is the only one who determines who goes for He knows everything about each person; what is in each's history, heart, mind, and soul.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[DoulaLC]

Yes, I agree... there have been plenty of missionaries who have converted many people, but for those who believe in a specific religion today, you would be hard pressed to find vast numbers easily converted. Just as an example... do you think someone could come along and convert you to follow Buddhism, Islam, Scientology, etc. Do you think you would be able to convert someone who believes strongly in Santeria to become a Christian?

You have your beliefs, that which may not be the same as someone else's in another part of the world.
For you, the way to heaven in through Jesus Christ, for someone else it may be through Allah, or perhaps the belief that there is no heaven and their soul will live again.

[JoeT777]

This is a topic that many have trouble with. I think, as Wondergirl mentioned, many don't hold to this belief in a literal sense.

There's the idea that there is not just one way....given that there are so many people who simply do not hold the same beliefs....it seems a bit arrogant for one group to think they hold the only answer. it may be the only answer for them, but a different way may be followed by someone else.

Someone born and raised in Iran, for example, will likely believe something totally different from someone born and raised in Japan. Does one hold the only answer? Someone born and raised within a tribe in Ghana may never have been exposed to any sort of organized religion, but will hold their own beliefs instead....so are they counted out?

I have my own beliefs that align pretty much with how I was raised.....as is likely the case with the majority of people. Sure some people do actually study various religions and decide for themselves what to believe or follow. They may choose not to follow any at all, or decide their beliefs don't fit exactly into any particular religion, but most people likely believe what they believe simply from being born into the family that they were. If they had been born elsewhere, there is a good chance they would believe something very different. There may be some influence along the way from family, friends, spouses, etc., but you often won't change someone's core beliefs. A Christian is not likely going to change the beliefs of a Muslim anymore than a Muslim will convert a Christian.

The core teachings of religion is basically the same regardless of which one it is....the golden rule transcends throughout...and that holds true whether someone believes in a religion or not....believes in God or not....believes in an afterlife or not....believer, agnostic, or atheist alike. There may be a good, even purposeful, reason for that.

I understand this to mean, “One faith is as good as another”. Are Christians to take Buddhism (or any other different faith) as an equivalent? If our Christian faith is this subjective, then why bother with faith at all; especially if its tenets become the least bit onerous?

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

Are Christians to take Buddhism (or any other different faith) as an equivalent?

Are you, Joe, expecting a life-long Hindu to take Christianity as an equivalent?

I'm guessing you will have as much difficulty convincing a devout Hindu that Christianity is the only religion worth having as the Hindu will have convincing you the same about Hinduism. (The interesting thing is, Hindus don't care what you believe in and will not try to change your beliefs.)

[DoulaLC]

I understand this to mean, “One faith is as good as another”. Are Christians to take Buddhism (or any other different faith) as an equivalent? If our Christian faith is this subjective, then why bother with faith at all; especially if its tenets become the least bit onerous?

JoeT

I'm merely speculating... perhaps one faith is as good as another in terms of the core teachings and the final outcome that most propose to achieve. All religions require faith and have tenets to follow. Faith is what is required in any meaningful relationship. Christians are taught what they believe to be the truth... but so are those who follow Islam, Scientology, Buddhism, etc..

You can have great faith without following any particular religion. My only point is that people come to their beliefs (whether that is a belief in God or not) through various means... most often from what their families believe or what they were exposed to growing up. Why do you think different countries tend to have a greater number of followers in certain religions? It is because the vast majority of people born and raised there are exposed to, and taught, to believe that way. Their beliefs make perfect sense to them, just as your beliefs make perfect sense to you. Maybe that is part of the design... bring to people what they can accept, understand, and believe in.

My question is what makes one religion anymore "true" than another? What would be the reason for different denominations within the Christian religion if there was only one way to believe? If there is room for some alternatives there, why not elsewhere?

What is "the way" for one religion will not be the same for another... but perhaps that is not necessarily a problem if the way one leads their life and how they interact with others and the world around them bring them to the same place with the same purpose.

[JBeaucaire]

...if there's anything Satan wants (or whatever evil you can believe in), he wants people who could be out doing GOOD locked in a room somewhere debating something irrelevant.

Let's not get roped in by it.

Comments on this post:
inthebox agrees: Telling people that God's love is there for the accepting, is hardly irrelevant.

I state things so strongly sometimes the point I'm making gets clouded. Yes, proclaiming God's love to others is not irrelevant, on any platform, even locked away in a room debating. It's relevant.

But the point of my paragraph you got that from was about losing productivity for good while we have these debates. That's all I meant.

When I was young and being discipled by my Youth Pastor, he gave us a warning I've never forgotten. He said something to the affect of:

"If Satan can't keep you from God, if he can't keep you away from Him, he may try a different tactic. He will tempt you into "super-Christianity", the kind of mentality that makes you so caught up in religion and rules and humanity's take on right/wrong that we become ineffective evangalists. He may have lost us, but if he can make us into "super-Christians" (think Pharisee), then he has nothing to fear from us when it comes to others. We'll spend all of our time arguing and debating amongst ourselves. And worse, when we DO interact with non-believers, we'll freak them out with our walls and intolerance. Jesus warned against this strongly, our attitude and demeanor with others must always be one of approachability and non-condescension. People will listen and respect a man who lives his beliefs rather than wields them like an axe."

Something like that.

[arcura]

DoulaLC,
You may be right that conversion of large numbers of people does not take place today, by maybe not...
But I personally know of several conversions to Christianity.
One of them was a Muslim at a college here in Montana to Christianity. There have been several of those.
Another is the conversion of many Jews to Christianity and some of them have become ministers or Priests.
I myself was able to aid the Holy Spirit in the conversion of a druid to Christianity.
He received a grand slam in graces.
That is he was baptized, had his first confession, confirmed, and received the Eucharist in ceremonies all the same day.
The national news often tells us of several Muslims whose lives have been lost or threatened.
So you see that there are many conversions that take place every year yet today.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[arcura]

JBeaucaire,
You youth pastor made a good point.
Wielding ones belief with an axe is counter productive.
I have been trying to convince some others here that doing that, such as telling people they are going to hell in not the thing to do.
But I disagree about discussions.
I have been involved in them for years and because of them I continue to learn and grow.
They are very helpful for me and I strongly suspect that is so for many others.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

Are you, Joe, expecting a life-long Hindu to take Christianity as an equivalent?

I'm guessing you will have as much difficulty convincing a devout Hindu that Christianity is the only religion worth having as the Hindu will have convincing you the same about Hinduism. (The interesting thing is, Hindus don't care what you believe in and will not try to change your beliefs.)

Not likely, I can't sit on the floor with my legs folded.

[Wondergirl]

Not likely, I can't sit on the floor with my legs folded.

Thank Vishnu that Hindus don't care what your religion is, Joe, and don't mind that you're a Christian. Otherwise, you might be subjected to knee-bending therapy.

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
As I explained here in post #35 many people DO convert every year to Christianity.
Peace and kindness.
Fred

[JoeT777]

Thank Vishnu that Hindus don't care what your religion is, Joe, and don't mind that you're a Christian. Otherwise, you might be subjected to knee-bending therapy.

Thank you, Vishnu.

Your response presumes that I'm intolerant of other religions. I don't think I ever said or implied intolerance. Here, in a forum of ideas, to be tolerant does not mean I should abandon my faith and take up another for the sake of a harmony in thought. But, what I have done is avoid agreement with tenets dogmatically opposed to my faith. And, hopefully doing so with some rationality.

Its not the bending of the knee, I've no problem with this. It's the folding of the legs - I'm physically incapable of it – I don't know why, it just can't be done.

JoeT