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    De Maria's Avatar
    De Maria Posts: 1,359, Reputation: 52
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    #1

    Dec 19, 2008, 08:07 PM
    Baptism and salvation
    What is the relationship of Baptism and salvation?
    N0help4u's Avatar
    N0help4u Posts: 19,823, Reputation: 2035
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    #2

    Dec 19, 2008, 08:12 PM

    The Bible says repent and be baptized
    Baptism is a spiritual cleansing and a proclamation to express your commitment,
    I believe baptism comes after you repent because you can't 'cleanse' what is still in its sin,
    JoeT777's Avatar
    JoeT777 Posts: 1,248, Reputation: 44
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    #3

    Dec 19, 2008, 08:32 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by N0help4u View Post
    The Bible says repent and be baptized
    Baptism is a spiritual cleansing and a proclamation to express your commitment,
    I believe baptism comes after you repent because you can't 'cleanse' what is still in its sin,
    Would you suggest that faith is required before baptism?
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #4

    Dec 19, 2008, 08:37 PM

    God (in the form of His Holy Spirit) comes to us where we are and begins to work faith in us. Baptism is one of the means of grace, one of the avenues, used.
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    N0help4u Posts: 19,823, Reputation: 2035
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    #5

    Dec 19, 2008, 08:37 PM

    Does anybody that doesn't have faith feel a need to get baptized?
    I would say it would be a requirement because I don't see any non believers running out to get baptized,

    You can baptize an infant but they should get baptized as an adult as the Bible says Repent and be baptized
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #6

    Dec 19, 2008, 08:40 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by N0help4u View Post
    I would say it would be a requirement because I don't see any non believers running out to get baptized
    I do and have for many, many years.
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    #7

    Dec 19, 2008, 08:44 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    I do and have for many, many years.
    I see professing Christians being baptized but not people who claim they have NO belief in God.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #8

    Dec 19, 2008, 08:46 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by N0help4u View Post
    I see professing Christians being baptized but not people who claim they have NO belief in God.
    Then please attend some Lutheran baptisms.
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    JoeT777 Posts: 1,248, Reputation: 44
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    #9

    Dec 19, 2008, 08:47 PM

    Infants are baptized; surly they aren't cognizant of an unmerited grace. Or do you feel that children can't be baptized?

    JoeT
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    #10

    Dec 19, 2008, 08:51 PM

    Yeah you do have a point there but they do infant baptism as a tradition of the church. I am saying a grown person not having any faith or repentance wanting to get baptized as an adult,
    I grew up Lutheran and know that many Lutheran churches are more like social clubs,
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #11

    Dec 19, 2008, 08:52 PM

    We've had threads like this before, and this one won't go anywhere either. There's the infant-baptism crowd and, opposing them, the adults-only crowd. Never the twain shall meet.
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    #12

    Dec 19, 2008, 08:55 PM
    I see nothing wrong with infant baptism, In Acts they told a whole house to be baptized, There could have been kids in that household,
    I just believe that once you are grown you should reaffirm your faith by baptism,
    Your parents baptize you when you are an infant that is THEIR faith or their motives not yours, You should reaffirm it for your own faith when you are grown,
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #13

    Dec 19, 2008, 09:00 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by N0help4u View Post
    I see nothing wrong with infant baptism, In Acts they told a whole house to be baptized, There could have been kids in that household,
    I just believe that once you are grown you should reaffirm your faith by baptism,
    Your parents baptize you when you are an infant, You should reaffirm it for your own faith when you are grown,
    That's the reason churches have Confirmation, to reaffirm Baptism.

    In the Lutheran churches I've belonged to (none of which were "social clubs"), if an adult has never been baptized, he/she studies for x number of weeks (depends on Bible and church doctrine knowledge), then is baptized and confirmed. Confirmation is a lead-in to the taking of Holy Communion.
    JoeT777's Avatar
    JoeT777 Posts: 1,248, Reputation: 44
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    #14

    Dec 19, 2008, 09:00 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    God (in the form of His Holy Spirit) comes to us where we are and begins to work faith in us. Baptism is one of the means of grace, one of the avenues, used.
    Then is baptism necessary?
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    #15

    Dec 19, 2008, 09:02 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeT777 View Post
    Then is baptism necessary?
    Necessary for what -- For salvation? For church membership? To rate a big party and gifts?
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    #16

    Dec 19, 2008, 09:12 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    That's the reason churches have Confirmation, to reaffirm Baptism.

    In the Lutheran churches I've belonged to (none of which were "social clubs"), if an adult has never been baptized, he/she studies for x number of weeks (depends on Bible and church doctrine knowledge), then is baptized and confirmed. Confirmation is a lead-in to the taking of Holy Communion.
    Those not in full communion with the Catholic Church can be reconciled, even those who once denied the Church. Those would not be possible if faith were required. Catholics hold that baptism is the remission of all sin, original and actual, as well as, the temporal punishment of sin. The second effect of baptism is to infuse a sanctifying grace “perfecting the essence of the soul… it is a certain participated likeness of the Divine Nature.”

    The effects of baptism remains for life renewed when the soul cooperates with the graces conferred. These graces remain whether Confirmation is made. However, Confirmation, confers a chrism of salvation. Confirmation perfects the Christian.

    JoeT
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    JoeT777 Posts: 1,248, Reputation: 44
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    #17

    Dec 19, 2008, 09:16 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Necessary for what -- For salvation? For church membership? To rate a big party and gifts?
    Well, I’ve heard from some of you that the grace of faith was necessary before baptism, and we know that without baptism we cannot enter the Kingdom of God. So, my question to you was, “is baptism necessary”; i.e. for salvation?

    JoeT
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    N0help4u Posts: 19,823, Reputation: 2035
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    #18

    Dec 19, 2008, 09:18 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeT777 View Post
    Those not in full communion with the Catholic Church can be reconciled, even those who once denied the Church. Those would not be possible if faith were required.
    JoeT
    So are you are you saying that faith is not required?
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #19

    Dec 19, 2008, 09:20 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeT777 View Post
    Well, I’ve heard from some of you that the grace of faith was necessary before baptism, and we know that without baptism we cannot enter the Kingdom of God. So, my question to you was, “is baptism necessary”; i.e. for salvation?

    JoeT
    I say no. If someone is unbaptized and is dying and honestly asks God for forgiveness, I do not believe God will condemn him.

    God looks into a person's heart. He doesn't check first to make sure someone has been baptized.
    N0help4u's Avatar
    N0help4u Posts: 19,823, Reputation: 2035
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    #20

    Dec 19, 2008, 09:22 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    That's the reason churches have Confirmation, to reaffirm Baptism.

    In the Lutheran churches I've belonged to (none of which were "social clubs"), if an adult has never been baptized, he/she studies for x number of weeks (depends on Bible and church doctrine knowledge), then is baptized and confirmed. Confirmation is a lead-in to the taking of Holy Communion.
    Confirmation is religion and I really don't see it in the Bible, I left the Lutheran church because I just don't see how the church formulas get you 'saved' I did the confirmation and baptism when I was in High school exactly the way you just said,

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