[andrewc24301]

That is great that you are able to do that. I wish every mother was in your circumstances.

I'm not a mother, I'm the father. We are barley able to do that, money is still tight. Especially now that overtime is down. In fact, if you had read my introduction thread, you would have learned this is my second account here. I never really got into why I had left AMHD a few years back, but the simple truth is, we had to cut back, and the internet was the first to go.

But to be fair, when gas hit $5.00 per gallon last summer, and the cost of groceries doubled, I'm not sure how we would have done it if I were still at my old job.

artlady:

I'll concede my argument to cut all welfare... well I never actually said cut all welfare, I just said it be for children only. And also, in an earlier post, I also said I don't have any problem with someone who is working, (doing the best they can) getting a little help. What I Don't like is these people who wouldn't know an eight hour day if it landed on their shoes.

Simply put, I feel drug testing applicants would eliminate the abuse, and probably welfare cost by at least 75%.

Unemployment:
This is an insurance your employer pays for. If you are working, and get laid off, of course, draw unemployment. Some of these factories shut down on no notice at all. In fact, we had one here last summer, the workers came in one Friday without a clue, the plant manager handed them their last paycheck and sent them home. Locking the doors on his way out However, I'm not sure if this is nation wide, but here in VA, you have to apply for I think two jobs per week to retain the benifet, and even at that, it is only good for so many months. (I think 18 months, but I'm not sure)

If I got laid off, naturally, I'd file for unemployment, but if I know me, I'd have the job replaced in less than a month, even if it were't as high paying a job. It's just the way I am, I can't stand to "not do anything" for to long. I start to get real irrirable. In fact, I've been on vacation this week, using some old time I had to draw, and it's not even the weekend yet and I can't wait to get back to work. I'm climbing the walls over here.

If you can't find a job in 18 months, then I think the problem is the applicant.

[andrewc24301]

Nohelp4u:
I didn't read your last post until after I had posted above. But I can live with the idea you presented.

You all seem like reasonable people. And I'm glad that no one is "flaring", as this tends to be a sore subject for some.

It's debates like this that tempers can easilly flare, especially if one of the debators is on welfare and defending their position.


But I think we can all agree, that the problem with the "abusers" is they hide behind the ones who are not abusing the system. Making them hard to target. Back when food stamps came on paper coupons and not a card, I've seen people sell their stamps for liquor. How is this helping their kids?

[N0help4u]

I do feel for the couple that is trying to make it. They are often making too much to get assistance but not enough to make it.
I wish I had had a husband/father it would have made it much easier for me emotionally.
My sister complained that she wished she could 'have it easy' like me yet between her and her husband they made $60, a year and bought their kids anything they wanted. I believe that no matter what your income you can budget to manage. Struggle yes but you can manage. I had 4 kids and with assistance only had around $10, to $15, a year. I feel we managed about as well as my sister even though my kids didn't have everything they had.
Too many people want all the latest most expensive things and don't buy second hand and manage their money well.
I don't have the internet or cable. I use my kids (they are grown and on their own now) internet and watch VCR tapes.
I bought a DVD for $30. But I never got around to buying many DVD's yet.
Being poor taught me to be resourceful and trade with other mothers... hand me down clothes, rummage sales, flea markets, yard sales, junk stores, working and trading for things,

[N0help4u]

I don't have a temper I just see things from many perspectives.
I have known wasteful rich people, rich people that work hard and help others, poor people that really don't desire most of what they have, poor people that were never given a chance that they do deserve, people that can't see past their nose, people that are too ignorant to see past their nose, etc...
I appreciate people that can see it isn't all black and white with no room to budge.

They still sell their food stamps with the card. Welfare claimed they were going to the card to cut down on abuse.
Now they just give the card to whoever and then call it in stolen if they don't give it back before the next month.
Or they go to the store with the person they sold the amount to. Like I said they sell the card and then cry for the neighbors to feed their poor starving kids.

[andrewc24301]

I do feel for the couple that is trying to make it. They are often making too much to get assistance but not enough to make it.

This our problem to a tee. I've made good money this year, of course last summer I pulled quite a few 80 hour weeks. My last paystub reveals about $47,000. Or course, my net pay was only $26,000. Still we had a good year.

Why so low off almost 50 grand?

Because my wife, who has a mental dissability (and is on dissability for it) did not qualify for medicaid when she first one her case.

Why? Because at the time I made $12 per hour, and that was considered too much. So I had to put her on my plan at work, which came with a biweekly deduction of almost $240. (about $500 per month), and a $2,000 deductable to boot, 80% there after. She only makes about $600 per month on her dissability. So in effect, the family household was only advanced by $100 per month.

I don't want to list what I make now because this is a public forum, but I will say it's more than $12, and less than $20 per hour.

Now get this. Because I WORKED so many hours, I find out that she is pretty much going to have to pay taxes on her dissability. (which by the way, they do not withhold from)
So any child tax credit we would have gotten will be eaten up! As I said earlier, what little we do get from the federal, will go to pay the state income tax that we will owe.

In fact, I even told her last month she'd be better to just drop dissability, because last year, almost everything she made we used to pay for medical bills, what insurance didn't cover.

So again, I apologize if I offended some, but it seems, on my side of the fence, all they do to me is tax tax tax tax tax... and I look around, and see people living the good life for free! It bothers me, and I can't help but be a little biased.

This country is set up to reward laziness, and penalize working people. The simple fact is, if I QUIT my job, my wife and child would qualify for medicaid, and she could get SSI. It wouldn't match what I bring home, but it'd be a nice sizable income for me doing nothing.

Then I could just sit around and be a lazy sorry __sed man (the kind we were discussing earlier) who is just mooching off his wife.

Thank God I'm not like that, my daddy raised me better. I will continue to work, as long as my hands will let me. And the government will continue to give it to me up the ____, as long as they can.

[andrewc24301]

How's this for a compromise?

Keep the welfare under the post you mentioned on the last page Nohelp4u, but make the rich (over $100k per year) pay for it.

And I get to keep some of that money they took from me on my pay.

In fact, let's just do away with the income tax all together. I'm all for the fair tax. But I'm starting to get off topic here, so I'll stop there.

But you have to admit, it would be a way to get rich people to pay taxes, as they buy the most "stuff".

[N0help4u]

Trust me if I were President of the USA it would be a lot different.
I heard Puerto Rico, or was it Costa Rico, has the best system.

[Akoue]

So you're trying to tell me, that everyone should be on welfare? (Akoue), I'm not going to put a "red box" on your profile, because this is a political debate and I just don't think it proper on a self help website, but I do, "dissagree".

If EVERYONE was on welfare, what tax dollars would fund the system? If I were on welfare, the government would be almost $12,000 poorer.

No, I take that back, since I pay for my own insurance, if I were on welfare, and the government paid for my insurance, as well as the cost of the actual insurance (what they cover), then given the surgeries my wife had, we would have probably cost the system $50,000 this year. In addition to what they would have paid me.

Now, I understand the problem with this countries finanical system, to many people not working, and drawing welfare, and too few paying into the system.

Out of the $4,000 I paid the federal government this year... what did I get for that money? Nothing.

And FYI - I dissagree with the whole economic stimulous plan! Granted, they send me another check, I'm going to cash it, but I would have been just find had they have not. The government can not afford it, and I really don't need it.

Child tax credit?
Please, any money I get back from the federal government, I have to turn around and pay the state with it. There might be $400 or so left over. Hardly enough to offset the expenses of having a child.

At one time, I would have agreed with you all, I would had a kind heart.

Not any more, not after I made the mistake of moving into this neighborhood without researching the surrounding homes first. Not after living 5 years in this welfare abundant, unemployed town. I see the level of disrespect these unemployed people dish out daily. Drugs, fussing, cussing, partying all night. And why not? Do they have to work the next day? Hardley. Running a fan all night drowns out much of the noise, but does little to drown out the occasional thumping car that drives by at 3AM.

Now DISSABILITY is a whole different subject. Of course, if you are disabled, then I have no problem with someone drawing social security, same goes for retirement.

That is a seperate (in theory) fund that everyone who has worked has paid into while they were working. If someone wins a dissability claim, then they will receive no greif from me. I do think it's assinine that you could amputed ams and legs, blind as a bat, can not hear, or speak, and you still have to hire a lawyer to win a case.

I respect your thoughts and opinions, but I do dissagree with them.

But in reality, it really makes no difference, welfare ain't goin nowhere... Perhaps someday I will cross the financial threshold and be able to afford the high taxes I have to pay as well as a nicer place to live away with this wannabe ghetto. I could have afforded it a long time ago, two years of taxes paid would have made a nice downpayment.

I do get your frustration--I lived in a neighborhood like the one you describe. But no, I don't think (and I don't think I came anywhere close to saying) that *everyone* should be on welfare. Even setting compassion, etc. to one side, I do think that everybody loses if it goes away. And I've known too many people over the years who were or are on welfare and are nothing like the people who live in your neighborhood, people who have worked and want to work but aren't able to work, at least not with any regularity. If it weren't for welfare, many of those people would starve to death. My conscience isn't okay with that. (My conscience isn't okay with anyone starving to death, even if they are lazy.) But, as I say, I don't mean to trivialize what you're saying: It does make sense to me, even though I don't agree with the conclusions you draw.

[Akoue]

But I think we can all agree, that the problem with the "abusers" is they hide behind the ones who are not abusing the system.

You're absolutely right. And they make it really hard for non-abusers who need welfare to get it (in some states the wait for--at least some types of--benefits is measured in years, not months). To me, the saddest things about these kinds of discussions is just how much pain there is all around: Nobody has the market cornered on suffering, of course, and as I've grown older I suppose I've become more of a softy. But I'm okay with that!

[andrewc24301]

Fair anough Akoue:

And I understand your point, but to be clear, those who "can't" work, I don't have a problem drawing money off the government. By definition of "can't", meaning they have some sort of physical or mental reason that can not work. This is where social security supported dissability comes in, which I have stated earlier, I have no problem with.

Those who CAN work, should work. And I do support cutting off those who CAN work. Able body adults who are capable of working, should work. Hands down. If they don't work, then I have no sypathy for them, should they choose to starve, remember they chose this, the COULD work, but chose not to.

But something tells me, that when they have to make the choice, work and eat, or don't work and starve, most of those will find work somewhere. The simple fact is, they have never had to make that choice, because they know in the back of their mind, someone will take care of them.

Now lets take Nohelp4u's scenario, of the single mother of 4 children who's husband, or father run oft. As I have said, raising children, especially 4 of them is a full time job. And as such, I don't have a problem with the woman in question receiving help. But I DO think the system should go after the father. At least make him pay a sizable child support payment.

And vice versa, if the woman runs off the man, leaving him with the kids, then he too will need help. But I think that who ever the kids are left with (man or woman), they need to try not to have more children until they are financially prepared to support all children with no support.

Even if both parents were unfit. Then, the children would be placed in foster care, where tax dollars would pay their custodian anyway. So if the actual parent of the child is fit, then naturally, I have no problem with them receiving help.

HOWEVER
Just as in foster care, if you are receiving help from the government, I do feel social services should apply all the same rules they would in the case of a foster parent, to verify you are raising the kids right, not abusing them, living in a drug free home, etc.

[Akoue]

Just as in foster care, if you are receiving help from the government, I do feel social services should apply all the same rules they would in the case of a foster parent, to verify you are raising the kids right, not abusing them, living in a drug free home, etc.

I am in complete agreement with you. There needs to be oversight.

[ShadyLady]

Scapegoating on the Poor...

[ShadyLady]

How welfare effects your taxes!
P.S. It might cost more to jail them get this I looked up costs to jail a person for a year over $90,000.00 a year!!!! per person!!

I really wonder where these figures come from. Aside from the cost of building the prison, can anyone tell me what costs... $90K to keep ONE person in prison? That means for every 11 inmates it costs appro. $1 million?. Every 110 costs $10 million?
Prison inmates also do some of the work involved running the prison, so that cuts down on employee salaries. So how many inmates does an "average" prison hold? (I don't know this answer) Add it up.

The point I'm trying to make is there is fraud and theivery going on at all economic and social levels of our society. Cheat just a little on your taxes? Your deserved it, you say to yourself! If it weren't for all them "welfare bums", you'd have more money.
Never mind that billion dollar corporations are sucking your tax dollars for bail-outs then taking $500K vacations. Or the govt. has totally mismanged our whole economic system.

Just blame it all on the poor. After all, they're the low-life of society. They're the single MOTHERS with CHILDREN who don't work. They're the baby producers. Their children grow up to be the future minimum wage earners of tomorrow or join the military to protect your asses. Sure, some end up on drugs. The poor aren't the only ones. What's that you're taking? Or your kid(s)?

A poor person knows how to make do with what they have and not waste. Every dollar counts, and "used" is the word. Therefore they are the re-cyclers of yesterday, today, and tomorrow.Many don't own cars; they use public transportation. They don't contribute that 6 TONS of carbon monoxide per year from a car.

Well! Says the middle income wage earner. The work ethic still stands. Staying at home with your children is a luxury, a lot of fun and no work at all. They're all little angels.
"So go get a job". Go put your kids in an overcrowded daycare and find yourself a minimum wage job. Just get off welfare. (How much does day care cost, by the way?)

Oh yes, the program needs to be restructured. We should just get rid of it. That way we can put millions of State employees out of their $2500 (plus benefits) jobs. When I worked for the Welfare it was an extremely stressful job. Nowadays they just push a few keys on a computer.

And if one of your blood kin needs help, you make sure you step up to the plate. After all, it's your blood. You are partly responsible--why shove it on the taxpayers? Shame on you!
Why didn't you teach your daughters and sons about birth control? Did you think they wouldn't "do" it?

Blah blah blah...

There is no answer. We can improve the program and educate our children but who's going to serve you your next Big Mac?

[N0help4u]

Day care rates can vary anywhere from $35. To $75. Per day.
The average welfare person who manages to get a job averages about $35. To $80. Per day leaving them with maybe $300. To $600. Per month for other expenses (rent, utilities, work expenses such as transportation) after day care expense.

[andrewc24301]

I stand by my position.

But as I've said, it's clear welfare isn't going anywhere.

It really burns my butt to see how some of these people take their benefits, stand in line, getting their assitance. Yet when you meet them on the street, they turn their noses up to you.

Maybe it isn't like that in ya'lls part of the country.

But all's I know is, when I leave for work, I have to meander around a bunch of welfare people loafing in the streets, giving me dirty looks. They move out of the way, scuffing their feet, smoking their cigarette.

If I come home for lunch, they are still there.

When I come home on time, they are still there.

If I work late... guess what - they are still there.

Hell, these men ain't even trying to find a job. It's so much easier to sit around a sap money off their knocked up girlfriends.

I'm sorry, I can not defend that. Perhaps in your part of the country, the system works, and everyone is in real hardship situations, but around here, it ain't like that.

[N0help4u]

Not only do many of them turn their noses up but they have an entitlement attitude. Like so many welfare moms in my neighborhood act like YOU OWE them a ride to the store, a cup of sugar, a few dollars or whatever. Then when you say NO they get all attitudey with you! They will even tell you ''My baby is on its last diaper and it is poopy'' to make you feel bad for the kid. You take them to the store for diapers. They come out with a carton of cigarettes and a half gallon of ice cream (NO diapers)and tell you they had to use the couple dollars they promised you.

[andrewc24301]

For those of you posting here defending welfare who happen to be on some kind of assistance, or have in the past, I'm not trying to criticize you personally. I'm not saying there aren't people who really are doing the best they can. And I don't have a problem helping people out, I give to charities all the time.

I am saying, that I know how the greater majority of them around here live, and it's stomach turning. A friend of mine is a realtor/property manager who deals in section 8. I've done some side work for him from time to time, cleaning out some of his rentals when someone moves out.

I have seen some crazy, nasty stuff in some of these homes, I've actually gotten choked up when told about how some of these children had to live.

Because people who are to sorry to work, (note I said "to sorry to work", never said "can't work") are more often than not, to sorry to raise kids right, keep a house clean, or even do the dishes.

There's no excuse for it, and that's your tax dollars at work.

There needs to be a great deal of reform. And if a sorry man is shacking up with his girlfriend, then the system needs to be made aware of that. There are logical reasons why the (woman) who is tending 7 kids can not work, however there is no reason why a man, who is living with the woman can't find a job.

If I work, and have to pay taxes on my wife's dissability just because "we live together" then it stands to reason, this same logic should apply to welfare.

[andrewc24301]

Nohelp4u:

Sorry, our post criss-crossed each other.

[N0help4u]

As I said before I understand because I DO see both sides of the fence. I see the needy greedy that are wasteful and unappreciative and I see the ones like myself...

As you said a hand UP NOT a hand out!

[MarkwithaK]

I stumbled across this topic at random and admittedly I haven't read through all 4 pages but I feel compelled to sound off. I am all for helping people but I do feel it is getting out of hand. I get up and go to work every day, I pay my taxes and essentially these peoples bills. Don't get me wrong, I am all for helping people but when tax time rolls around welfare recipients receive a nice refund while I either break even or end up paying.

I believe that welfare should be limited to 5 years. That is more than enough time to get a degree or learn a trade and there are certainly enough resources to help pay for tuition. This should be a requirement, not an option. You have to be willing to help yourselves. As they say, give a man a fish etc etc etc.