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    jillianleab's Avatar
    jillianleab Posts: 1,194, Reputation: 279
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    #101

    Dec 12, 2008, 03:27 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Why do you guys keep asking me why I dismiss the offense to the atheists? I never dismissed it, in fact in this response to you I said "I don't deny it may offend some," so can we all please stop suggesting things about me that aren't there? I can't explain it any clearer than I have already Jillian, the atheist sign is openly, directly, expressly, clearly hostile. The nativity scene is not. I've acknowledged atheist's rights, that the nativity scene offends some, and said if the situation were reversed it would be equally wrong, so there's nothing more for me to add ... unless someone again attributes something to me that doesn't exist.
    You say you aren't dismissing the offense of others, but you are arguing that the nativity is harmless, regardless of the fact that is offends people, yet the sign isn't harmless because offends people. There are those out there who see the nativity as "openly, directly, expressly, [and] clearly hostile". You're teetering on the edge of a double standard.
    TexasParent's Avatar
    TexasParent Posts: 378, Reputation: 73
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    #102

    Dec 12, 2008, 03:28 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, T:

    The issue here isn't Christianity, Christmas, atheists, or ANYTHING religious, actually.

    I think Christmas is great. When we were kids, we could still have a Christmas play every year. I loved playing Jesus... I'm a supporter of Christmas, the holiday and I'm respectful of it's religious implications, and of the people who believe in them.

    The issue HERE is whether the state should support one religion over another or should it support any of them.

    Putting a manger in a state building IS a message FROM the state, just like Christmas ornaments in your front yard deliver a message from you. It's FINE for you. It ISN'T fine for the state.

    excon
    You know lights, ornaments, wreaths, garland, etc. look great this time of year. And frankly most public spaces could use the facelift once a year, most public places are drab and cold looking.

    I understand your point, and I agree; but I also know that somewhere in law, but mostly in my heart it's not wrong to display lights, garland, wreaths and ornaments. They as symbols don't speak to anyone in particular; Christians will say they they represent their Christmas, I will say they represent winter and my non-religious view of the Christmas season, and I don't think even the Jews have been at particular odds with non-Christian representations of the season.

    If the majority want non-offensive season appropriate decorations in our public places I am all for it, they look great.

    As for lights and ornaments in my yard; what message would that be? How could you determine what my message is?

    I've posted earlier about my view on the nativity scene and the sign, I won't repeat it here; but I wanted to add, that I don't mind a few of my tax dollars at work to beautify our public spaces during the "Winter Solictice" season ;)
    startover22's Avatar
    startover22 Posts: 2,758, Reputation: 363
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    #103

    Dec 12, 2008, 03:30 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by TexasParent View Post
    You know lights, ornaments, wreaths, garland, etc. look great this time of year. And frankly most public spaces could use the facelift once a year, most public places are drab and cold looking.

    I understand your point, and I agree; but I also know that somewhere in law, but mostly in my heart it's not wrong to display lights, garland, wreaths and ornaments. They as symbols don't speak to anyone in particular; Christians will say they they represent their Christmas, I will say they represent winter and my non-religious view of the Christmas season, and I don't think even the Jews have been at particular odds with non-Christian representations of the season.

    If the majority want non-offensive season appropriate decorations in our public places I am all for it, they look great.

    As for lights and ornaments in my yard; what message would that be? How could you determine what my message is?

    I've posted earlier about my view on the nativity scene and the sign, I won't repeat it here; but I wanted to add, that I don't mind a few of my tax dollars at work to beautify our public spaces during the "Winter Solictice" season ;)
    Agreed, but that sign has no beauty in it what so ever;)
    TexasParent's Avatar
    TexasParent Posts: 378, Reputation: 73
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    #104

    Dec 12, 2008, 03:37 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jillianleab View Post
    You say you aren't dismissing the offense of others, but you are arguing that the nativity is harmless, regardless of the fact that is offends people, yet the sign isn't harmless because offends people. There are those out there who see the nativity as "openly, directly, expressly, [and] clearly hostile". You're teetering on the edge of a double standard.
    Who are those who find the nativity scene hostile? What do they find hostile about it? Read my earlier post about the CHILD TEST.

    There is nothing hostile about a few people gathered around a baby and having a few farm animals thrown in to boot. On the surface it would look like to a child a family in a barn; because that is all it is until you assign your own prejudices to it; either positive or negative. Is that the fault of the scene itself, no. It delivers no message on it's own, you have to have learned your hostility from somewhere else.

    As for the "sign" in question, it did display a hostile opinion towards another belief; and hence is inappropriate for display in a publicly funded place.

    That is the difference.
    inthebox's Avatar
    inthebox Posts: 787, Reputation: 179
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    #105

    Dec 12, 2008, 03:46 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello wingers of all persuasions:

    Well, you Christians wanted YOUR stuff displayed in public, and so it was... That should make you Christians happy. YOUR message IS in the public square... Nobody is trying to REMOVE your nativity scene, like they used to... Nope, you guys WON that battle..

    But, hold on a minute podner..... That danged governor of ours said that if the public arena is open for religious display, then it should be open to ALL religious displays....

    No??? Just yours? Cause we're a Christian nation????

    In any case, we're NOT a Christian nation. So, some atheist group put a sign alongside the nativity scene in the public square. It says “There is only one natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds.”

    So, what's wrong with that?

    excon

    So, Ex, are you implying that atheism is a religion?






    g&p
    jillianleab's Avatar
    jillianleab Posts: 1,194, Reputation: 279
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    #106

    Dec 12, 2008, 03:49 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by TexasParent View Post
    Use the child test (of reading age) to determine the appropriateness of a display.
    Your "child's test" fails in your very own post - the swastica. If society/community has standards which it can impose, why are those imposed on some but not all?

    And if Christians would be, in your opinion, more receptive to a less-aggressive sign, why did this statement: Why believe in a God? Just be good for goodness sake. which appeared on the side of busses in DC cause an uproar? Different topic - just food for thought.
    jillianleab's Avatar
    jillianleab Posts: 1,194, Reputation: 279
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    #107

    Dec 12, 2008, 03:53 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by TexasParent View Post
    Who are those who find the nativity scene hostile? What do they find hostile about it?
    The group which put the sign up. Read the link I posted back on page 4, post #31.
    jillianleab's Avatar
    jillianleab Posts: 1,194, Reputation: 279
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    #108

    Dec 12, 2008, 03:59 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    Can you imagine doing this to a muslim holiday? I just don't get it. This is OUR celebration of OUR Lord's birth. Why in the WORLD do atheists even care? They don't have to celebrate it. I am SICK to death of being polically correct. It is disrespect to the Christian Faith and I for one am HIGHLY offended. What is it to an atheist? Geesh.
    Pardon me, but nothing is being done to a holiday, it's a sign going up in the month of December. It is the ultimate sign of arrogance for you to claim the month of December as "yours".

    And, for your educating pleasure:

    December 6 - December 9, 2008
    Hajj (Annual Pilgrimage to Mecca)
    The Hajj, or annual pilgrimage to Mecca, consists of several ceremonies meant to symbolize the essential concepts of the Islamic faith, such as submission, brotherhood, and unity, and to commemorate the trials of the Prophet Abraham and his family. Required once in a Muslim’s lifetime, over two million Muslims perform the pilgrimage annually.

    December 8, 2008
    Eid-ul-Adha (Festival of the Sacrifice)
    Holiday occurring on the third day of the Hajj, lasting four days. It commemorates the Prophet Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son, who was replaced by a lamb.

    December 29, 2008
    Islamic New Year (1430 A.H.*)
    Marks the beginning of a New Year in the Islamic calendar. There are an estimated 1.5 billion Muslims in the world, making Muslims one of the world's largest religious group in the United States. There are an estimated 6-8 million Muslims in America, making Muslims the second largest religious group in the United States. While the majority of American Muslims were born in this country, they are from a wide variety of ethnic backgrounds: African-American, South Asian, Arab, African, Persian, and the remaining are European, Southeast Asian and Turkish.
    inthebox's Avatar
    inthebox Posts: 787, Reputation: 179
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    #109

    Dec 12, 2008, 04:32 PM

    That is okay with me.

    The nativity scene does not say in writing - you non Christians believe in superstition and myth that hardens the heart and enslaves the mind.:confused:

    Just as long as my fellow Muslims don't expect me to hold to the sacrifices made during the month of Ramadan. They are tougher than me
    ;)


    g&p
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #110

    Dec 12, 2008, 05:06 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by TexasParent View Post
    As for lights and ornaments in my yard; what message would that be? How could you determine what my message is?
    Hello again, Tex:

    Well, I could determine that you're a Christian person who celebrates the birth of Christ. I could be wrong, of course. However, I think my reading of the signs would be accurate. It's you who wishes to make it secular (which, of course, is fine with me). To wit:

    Quote Originally Posted by TexasParent View Post
    No where does Santa tell kids that it's a Christian holiday; and in my house we had a Christmas tree, family dinners, love; but it was not a celebration of Christ. Did I know it represented the day Christ was born, yes; but more as a history of how it came about as well as the pagan celebrations that it was also born from.
    If you saw a menorah in my window, what would you determine from that? I'll bet you'd be right.

    excon
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #111

    Dec 12, 2008, 05:07 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by inthebox View Post
    So, Ex, are you implying that atheism is a religion?
    Hello in:

    What? You have to be a religion to post a sign in the Capitol? I didn't know that.

    excon
    TexasParent's Avatar
    TexasParent Posts: 378, Reputation: 73
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    #112

    Dec 12, 2008, 05:30 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jillianleab View Post
    Your "child's test" fails in your very own post - the swastica. If society/community has standards which it can impose, why are those imposed on some but not all?

    And if Christians would be, in your opinion, more receptive to a less-aggressive sign, why did this statement: Why believe in a God? Just be good for goodness sake. which appeared on the side of busses in DC cause an uproar? Different topic - just food for thought.
    Alas, I know the Swastika DOES past the "child's test" because a child wouldn't know what it meant until someone told them; but for those who do know what it represents it is so offensive that the uproar would be even more than what is taking place over the sign. Then who becomes the judge of what is appropriate and what is not. Unfortunately, I guess EXCON is right, the state should not be in the position to judge what is appropriate or not and should not display anything at all.

    Shame really; I like pretty. Can we agree that red and green are not offensive to anyone and can the State display red and green banners this time of year? Is pine garland offensive to anyone? Can we have a national referendum on what is appropriate during this time of year?

    I vote for green, because there is too little of it in winter!

    Sigh.
    classyT's Avatar
    classyT Posts: 1,562, Reputation: 214
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    #113

    Dec 12, 2008, 05:50 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jillianleab View Post
    Pardon me, but nothing is being done to a holiday, it's a sign going up in the month of December. It is the ultimate sign of arrogance for you to claim the month of December as "yours".

    And, for your educating pleasure:

    December 6 - December 9, 2008
    Hajj (Annual Pilgrimage to Mecca)
    The Hajj, or annual pilgrimage to Mecca, consists of several ceremonies meant to symbolize the essential concepts of the Islamic faith, such as submission, brotherhood, and unity, and to commemorate the trials of the Prophet Abraham and his family. Required once in a Muslim's lifetime, over two million Muslims perform the pilgrimage annually.

    December 8, 2008
    Eid-ul-Adha (Festival of the Sacrifice)
    Holiday occurring on the third day of the Hajj, lasting four days. It commemorates the Prophet Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son, who was replaced by a lamb.

    December 29, 2008
    Islamic New Year (1430 A.H.*)
    Marks the beginning of a New Year in the Islamic calendar. There are an estimated 1.5 billion Muslims in the world, making Muslims one of the world's largest religious group in the United States. There are an estimated 6-8 million Muslims in America, making Muslims the second largest religious group in the United States. While the majority of American Muslims were born in this country, they are from a wide variety of ethnic backgrounds: African-American, South Asian, Arab, African, Persian, and the remaining are European, Southeast Asian and Turkish.
    Well, I DO pardon you Jill. And I never claimed the month of December as MINE. The last time I checked... Christmas was ONE day... December 25. I said CHRISTMAS was about CHRIST and it was a CHRISTIAN Holiday. I don't care who wants to celebrate what in December... but I don't like when other Organizations want to disrespect OUR CHRISTIAN HOLIDAY with things that demean our FAITH. You want to call that arrogance?. Again, I submit to you if it wasn't about Christianity, you wouldn't have an issue.
    jillianleab's Avatar
    jillianleab Posts: 1,194, Reputation: 279
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    #114

    Dec 12, 2008, 05:54 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by TexasParent View Post
    Alas, I know the Swastika DOES past the "child's test" because a child wouldn't know what it meant until someone told them; but for those who do know what it represents it is so offensive that the uproar would be even more than what is taking place over the sign.
    You're forgetting the swastika is a religious symbol in Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism... and more. The Nazis adopted it and now it is associated with them alone, but on it's own (and depending on the direction it faces), really, it shouldn't be an offensive symbol. You're also using a child ignorant of history but capable of understanding the words on the atheist's sign and the intended meaning behind them.

    Then who becomes the judge of what is appropriate and what is not. Unfortunately, I guess EXCON is right, the state should not be in the position to judge what is appropriate or not and should not display anything at all.
    I agree - keep it all out. It's impossible to not offend someone with something; the best course of action is to take it all down and keep it all down.

    Shame really; I like pretty. Can we agree that red and green are not offensive to anyone and can the State display red and green banners this time of year? Is pine garland offensive to anyone? Can we have a national referendum on what is appropriate during this time of year?

    I vote for green, because there is too little of it in winter!

    Sigh.
    Red and green... they don't offend me, but the origins of why they are Christmas colors is significant. Google it, you'll see several histories indicating how the colors relate to Christianity. I think you're safe with pine and garland, since pine trees keep their look for the winter... but... then you get into Christmas trees... How about snowflakes? Snowmen? Peppermint candies? Holly leaves?
    jillianleab's Avatar
    jillianleab Posts: 1,194, Reputation: 279
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    #115

    Dec 12, 2008, 06:02 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    Well, I DO pardon you Jill. And I never claimed the month of December as MINE. The last time I checked... Christmas was ONE day... December 25. I said CHRISTMAS was about CHRIST and it was a CHRISTIAN Holiday. I don't care who wants to celebrate what in December... but I don't like when other Organizations want to disrespect OUR CHRISTIAN HOLIDAY with things that demean our FAITH. You want to call that arrogance?.
    Where does the atheist sign attack Christmas? I read it and it says nothing about Christmas, or even specifically Christians. It says religion. It's not attacking "your holiday". No one is arguing Christmas is a Christian holiday.

    And you DID claim the month of December as "yours" when you dared the atheists to do this "to" a muslim holiday, and when you were dismissive of the Jewish celebrations during the month.

    Again, I submit to you if it was about Christianity, you wouldn't have an issue.
    I have no idea what you mean by this.

    Are we sufficiently off topic yet? I think so. If you want to continue, feel free to PM me.
    classyT's Avatar
    classyT Posts: 1,562, Reputation: 214
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    #116

    Dec 12, 2008, 06:18 PM

    Jill,

    It says there is NO GOD. Christmas celebrates the BIRTH of the Lord Jesus Christ who is in fact GOD! It also states that religion ENSLAVES minds. It is right beside the display of the nativity scene!! Naah that's not an attack... I'm just being thin skinned. Pick a muslim Holiday and put THAT sign up RIGHT beside something sacred to them. See what happens. That doesn't mean I think December belongs to the Christians.. I think what I am saying is... Christians are sick of having their faith disrespected. By the way, I LOVE the Jewish Holidays and feasts... I was never dismissive.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #117

    Dec 13, 2008, 03:38 AM

    I just want to extend a Happy Festivus to everyone !
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #118

    Dec 13, 2008, 06:12 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    I just want to extend a Happy Festivus to everyone !
    We've already begun the airing of grievances, now it's time for feats of strength.
    Synnen's Avatar
    Synnen Posts: 7,927, Reputation: 2443
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    #119

    Dec 13, 2008, 08:44 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    Can you imagine doing this to a muslim holiday? I just don't get it. This is OUR celebration of OUR Lord's birth. Why in the WORLD do atheists even care? They don't have to celebrate it. I am SICK to death of being polically correct. It is disrespect to the Christian Faith and I for one am HIGHLY offended. What is it to an atheist? Geesh.
    YOUR celebration of YOUR lord's birth just HAPPENS to fall on or around the date of a major holiday for at LEAST 4 religions.

    It's not ALL yours, and *I* am sick to death of the "majority rule" attitude when it comes to displays and celebrations.

    Either ALL get to, or NONE get to---take your pick.

    As far as the swastika being compared to pornography--that's a bit out of line. Until the Nazis went overboard with it, the swastika was a symbol used in several major Eastern religions, and has been known to appear in several Native American traditions as well. So frankly--if a Hindu wanted to put up a swastika, you couldn't stop them, BECAUSE it is a religious symbol. Equating that to a picture of two people attempting to procreate isn't exactly the same thing, hmmm? And again, if a child of reading age had to look at a symbol and see a geometric pattern or a picture of the nativity---isn't it STILL up to the parents to choose how to discuss it with their child.

    And frankly, really--a good religious symbol to Gaia COULD be one of those little stylized naked women. Is nakedness out too? Or just outright pornography?

    I GET the idea of standards. I just want to know WHOSE standards they should be.

    I believe in a Creator, you know. It's a goddess/god thing, but it's still a religion. I haven't seen any Jews protesting or stealing the sign. Nor have I seen Muslims all up in arms about it. Don't think there are any Hindus screaming "hate", or Buddhists protesting because their religion has been slandered.

    Nope---it seems to be only Christians that have a problem with it.

    *I* am not offended by that sign. I'm also not personally offended by the nativity. The fact that the two of them are near each other isn't that either one is attacking the other. That just happens to be the space that some bureaucrat assigned each of them. When the menorrah goes up, I'm thinking it's going to be in the same general area as those other two displays.

    What DOES offend me is the attitude that ONE belief can be put up in the capitol building and another cannot. It DOES offend me that people think ONE of those displays is offensive and the other is not. Either they both are, or neither are, in my opinion.
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #120

    Dec 13, 2008, 09:13 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Synnen View Post
    What DOES offend me is the attitude that ONE belief can be put up in the capitol building and another cannot. It DOES offend me that people think ONE of those displays is offensive and the other is not. Either they both are, or neither are, in my opinion.
    For the umpteenth time, one "belief" says "to commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ, which is celebrated by Christians around the world." The other says religious people are idiots. There are 4 displays in play here, all required by the settlement (pdf) to be "consistent with the intent and decorum of the seat of state government and the appropriate, non-disruptive use of public facilities."

    A "Holiday Tree"
    A Menorah
    A nativity Scene
    A sign saying there is no God and religion "enslaves minds"

    Lets' boil it down to a little Sesame Street game:

    One of these things is not like the others,
    One of these things just doesn't belong,
    Can you tell which thing is not like the others
    By the time I finish my song?

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