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KISS · Dec 6, 2008, 09:30 PM

I'm not happy with the website.

Etaz:
Do you want to pursue a 24 VAC solution or keep things at 120 V. This product seems similar to the Honeywell product. Relay Boards

Honeywell uses snaptrack and I LOVE snaptrak.

I just HATE when mfs forget to list essential s*it like size and type and size of terminations. You get into a project and find it need 0.110 fastons instead of 0.250 or #10 lugs rather than #6 lugs. Baaah Humbug.

Do you think I can find a job that lets me look at stuff for the first time and point out missing ESSENTIAL information?

Etaz · Dec 6, 2008, 09:35 PM

WHOA! You da man. Ok, we'll just consider this our lil' sandbox here with this one.
Yea, I have the instr manual. WIll send you the page for the wiring.
What else can I do about the fan? Were you able to read the lable from the pic? Unfortunately, I don't have any other data for the outdated POS (better not let it hear me say that because it just might decode to stop working). Monday I can track down a mainttech and ask if they have any diags for the unit models.

Etaz · Dec 6, 2008, 09:39 PM

KISS,
Of course. 24V AC was always the intent because of options. Keep in mind though budget. I don't mind adding relays and such, just have to keep bottom line in check.

KISS · Dec 6, 2008, 09:49 PM

Wiring and "How the fan operates". If it's on continuously, then it's a no go.

KISS · Dec 6, 2008, 09:57 PM

Monday try to track down a Honeywell W6380B Fan Relay Center so we can leave Sparky where Sparky belongs.

Etaz · Dec 6, 2008, 10:06 PM

Not sure what you mean by "on continuously".
It shuts off when it reachs it's setpoint temp. Lil confused here.

Etaz · Dec 6, 2008, 10:08 PM

Whatchu talking about? Sparky? The fan or the stat? Guess I should go drinkin' instead of horsin' around with Sparky.

KISS · Dec 6, 2008, 10:11 PM

How does this sound:

Get about 5 LED's and five 2.2K 1/2 watt resistors, 5 1n400x diodes (x=1 to whatever) and the cheapest 24 VAC transformer you can find.

Connect the diode and led and resistor in series. Put it across the 24 VAC. If it doesn't light, turn the diode around. Now wire up the stat so that low, med, hi, heat and cool are now lights on the "bench" and "see" what happens.

If it appears it won't work, then you can send it back.

You could use a breadboard or solder the LED string together and use heat shrink.

KISS · Dec 6, 2008, 10:34 PM

FAN: A lot of the stats I looked at reverted to a continuous fan when the temperature was satisfied. With hot and cold valves, this is possible to ventilate the stuffy motel room. If the stat does that, IT Won't WORK!

IDEALY it should change fan speeds based on the difference of desired temperature and temperature. The Honeywell does.

SPARKY: A name given to electricians, particularly ones who mess up. Keeping Sparky where Sparky belongs basically means make the tstat wires low voltage which minimizes possible damage. Cost increases. Safety increases.

MAGIC SMOKE Not covered yet.. But Magic Smoke makes electronics work. To prove it, once a piece of electronics smokes it eases to work. Therefor Magic Smoke is the secret.

PROPOSAL #1 would be re-worked slightly to use 24 VAC control wiring. Thus safer. It also opens up the possibility that the Honeywell stat can be used. It's up to you. I'd add an LED light to indicate the cool state of the changeover switch.

J-Box We need to find a relatively shallow box, guess 4-6" tall that will fit nicely in the FAN COIL that will house the new stuff. We need to know heights and size of the stuff. It will also need a few bushings.
Professional and not sloppy.

KISS · Dec 6, 2008, 11:24 PM

In order to assemble this mess, I was thinking of a small enclosure and grommets to pass the wires through. We don't know the sizes, so don't order it.

9x6x5h
http://www.newark.com/bud-industries...ty-cabinet/dp/

Snaptrak is here: Catalog 126 | Newark.com

and you need the clips on the next page to mount the Honeywell thing if it doesn't come with it.

Bushings
I was also looking for these the nylon bushings on the right top. http://www.keyelco.com/pdfs/M55p120.pdf

Then a small piece of DIN rail: http://onlinecatalog.digikey.com/Web...PageIndex=338#

and you have the basis of the project, or at least the idea so things don't get messy.

In the ideal case, you bring the cables in to their own terminal and branch from there.

So, you have motor (5), Sensor (3), Stat (7 or so) and power.

That and a couple of relays.

That's why the project is mechanical as well as electrical. You can easily change things around and the parts are reuseable.

KC13 · Dec 7, 2008, 08:23 AM

Ah, Magic Smoke... installed at the assembly factory, and once it escapes, it can't be put back in...

hvac1000 · Dec 7, 2008, 09:21 AM

That is why it is always good to have a box of magic smoke control handy. The box contains the same parts that you were working with but the smoke is still inside the parts waiting to be released on the second try.

KC13 · Dec 7, 2008, 09:28 AM

Advances in technology are leading to the availability of smoke color options. Exciting!

hvac1000 · Dec 7, 2008, 09:48 AM

Kind of like the smoke I used to put down on the landing zones to tell of possible evil enemy in the area so they would know if we were hot or not..

KC13 · Dec 7, 2008, 10:15 AM

I always insist on genuine "Magic Smoke"... some of the cheap imitations do not perform nearly as well...

KISS · Dec 7, 2008, 11:46 AM

How do you determine if the Magic smoke is authentic? The destructive "smoke test"?

hvac1000 · Dec 7, 2008, 02:09 PM

I will never forget the time Sparky was wiring the thermostats on a union job (I had no choice but to let them do it). When all was done I gave them the privilege of turning on the main power to activate the unit. I told the sparky that did the low volt wiring to go stand near the thermostat just in case we need to shut it down. When the power was hit the fun began. Each Honeywell 2 stage heat and cool got just a tiny glow and a nice little puff of smoke. Those were the heat anticipators going out. It cost the company doing the electric wiring 4 of those thermostats. BTW they let us wire them in the next go round. That is one of the storys I always tell the class.

Etaz · Dec 8, 2008, 01:22 PM

You guys are too much. Glad to see this my forum is a vehicle for reminiscencing Sparky memories and conversations on where good "magic smoke" is harvested.

Kiss, I have come to the inevitable decision to take my mess and all this forum's experts' suggestions to a local reference. I have indeed learned a lot and acquired uselful resources that you have supplied. Carry on and thanks! I'll let you know how I get everything ends up... sans magic smoke (hopefully).
Cheers.

KISS · Dec 8, 2008, 02:04 PM

Sometimes we need a diversion. You shouls see some of the threads that we end up talking to ourselves.

If you can, can you scan the entire manual for the T202 stat. I'm very curious as to how it's supposed to behave.

I'm not sure what a "local reference" is. Can you elaborate.

Looking at how the cover is designed, you may just be able to insert the required relay etc. on a DIN rail on the side. A few stategicly placed cable clamps should work fine.

Just connecting the N, L1, L, M and Hi connections, the stat should work EXCEPT there is a possibility that it can blow the wrong desired air.

Two relays and some re-wiring will fix that. A relay with a coil LED would aid in troubleshooting. e.g. tells you when the loop temp changed. You would just move the sensor wires going to the stat and make them heat and cool going to the fan coil.

A 24 VAC solution for safety is possible. Adds cost. Would be useful if you were thinking about changing the stat.

Finally the Honeywell stat is EXPENSIVE and is 24 VAC, but adds the following desired features:
1. Thermostat indicates if cool or heat locked out
2. Automatically varying the speeds makes it function somewhat like a VAV ( Variable Air Volume) control system.
Once you have experienced a system that controls the fan speed automatically ambient noise is reduced considerably and your not awakened in the night with a high blower speed.
3. You get arm chair programmability as a value added option (big whoop)

Fan Coil systems are either hospitality based or institutionally based. From a marketing point of view programmability has little value. It would appeal only to codo owners like you. The hotel industry has different requirements (occupancy detection, window open, Leave for a while) etc. Any other application requires a building automation system so that the owner of the heat/cool plant saves money.

There is no incentive for the condo association to undertake a large upgrade because they just pass the costs onto the condo owner. The condo owner's get the short end of the stick.

You have a budget to contend with. You have options now where their didn't appear to be any. You'll get lower temperature for sleeping and repeatability for setting the stat. Bet you have a small mark where the dial goes.

I enjoyed this. Controls are a specialty of mine.

I'm working on one myself which is messy. But I'm in no hurry to complete it. There are options and I haven't ruled any of them out. I need to force a damper open at a about 1:00PM for about 10 minutes when Carrier does it's daily filter test and control that damper with a stat otherwise. The ease of getting into override for about 8 hrs is what I need. Precise control, I do not. Damper closed at all other times except when controlling or in test.
Just not there yet. Collected most parts. Tstat register damper and control box, transformer and one relay.