[tomder55]

If it is about morals and religion why am I allowed to get married? My wife and I are both flaming atheists.
In fact we purposely scrubbed the word god out of all of our marriage vows.

Was your "marriage " then sanctioned in a church ;or was it a civil ceremony ?

[michealb]

Civil ceremony of course. Although I believe the woman that married us was a minister of some church or other. We were required to have someone that was legally able to sign the license and most of the time that means a minister of some sort they seem to be the only ones that go through the paper work to do that here in VA.

[Synnen]

Great answer, classy!! So true.

Anyway, I have to say how I can't believe how nasty the OP has been through this topic. He asked for opinions, called on Christians to answer, and then slams everyone with a differing opinion.

I don 't think gays should be allowed to marry. Not even just from a Christian perspective, I just think it's unnatural. I also think the practice of gay marriage, if legal, would be greatly abused for financial gains. Being gay is a defect, obviously. All living things have one purpose-to reproduce. Just because the times we live in now, where a person can be a productive member of society without having kids, doesn't make being gay not a defect. Obviously, if you're attracted to the same sex, you can't reproduce, and therefore, in the natural world, you are useless.

And that is my opinion, and I think YOU are wrong, excon. What, did you fall in love with your cellie or something? Is this why you are asking?

Are you saying that I am defective because I am infertile? Seriously?

I'm not a lesbian, but I AM infertile----and that attitude is EXACTLY why infertile couples don't usually advertise WHY they don't have kids.

And by that token---are those couples that CHOOSE not to have children useless because they don't reproduce? Are they EVIL because they choose not to add to the growing population problem in the world?

Honestly, I think there are more Christian ideas that are "defective" than non-christian ideas. And again---anyone arguing that God says that marriage is a man and woman becoming one--and thank you for the quote--should NEVER get divorced, nor believe in divorce, because you're cleaving apart what GOD made to be put together.

If you're protesting gay marriages, you should ALSO be protesting divorced people being able to remarry in the church, because by the church's definition, they CAN'T divorce---GOD made them one, and only GOD can part them.

[excon]

Anyway, I have to say how I can't believe how nasty the OP has been through this topic. He asked for opinions, called on Christians to answer, and then slams everyone with a differing opinion.....
And that is my opinion, and I think YOU are wrong, excon. What, did you fall in love with your cellie or something? Is this why you are asking?

Hello pass:

I'm NOT the nasty one here. I have over 9,000 posts. I've been here for LOTS of years. These people are my friends. I don't attack people. I don't insult them.

What I have is opinions. I speak them loudly and vociferously WITHOUT insulting anyone. Too bad you can't live up to the standards of an exconvict. You're the nasty one, in fact.

I will answer your question, however, your insult notwithstanding.

I understand, that you cannot understand a citizen who wants to share the freedoms and bounties that our country promises, simply because the country promises it, and nothing more. You think there has to be something in for me, I suppose, because you're not able to see beyond your own selfish wants.

I understand your kind. I really do.

excon

[tomder55]

Civil ceremony of course

The state then has no business bringing up issues of ' God 'in the ceremony then. My position is that the word marriage should only apply to the religious sacrament . Civil union then applied equally would satisfy all concerned unless the agenda was different then equal rights under the law.

[speechlesstx]

I will assume that your authority on what constitutes marriage is from the Bible. Yet, there are some Christian Churches who interpret the Bible differently and allow the marriage of two people of the same sex.

Tell me, who amongst Christianity settles what is truth and what isn't? The majority? Now that would be a slippery slope.

Churches and people can interpret the bible any way they want but it doesn't make it the right interpretation. And on this subject there is no doubt what the correct interpretation is, there is nothing, nada, zilch, zero in the bible that can truthfully be interpreted to sanction gay marriage.

[classyT]

Are you saying that I am defective because I am infertile? Seriously?

I'm not a lesbian, but I AM infertile----and that attitude is EXACTLY why infertile couples don't usually advertise WHY they don't have kids.

And by that token---are those couples that CHOOSE not to have children useless because they don't reproduce? Are they EVIL because they choose not to add to the growing population problem in the world?

Honestly, i think there are more Christian ideas that are "defective" than non-christian ideas. And again---anyone arguing that God says that marriage is a man and woman becoming one--and thank you for the quote--should NEVER get divorced, nor believe in divorce, because you're cleaving apart what GOD made to be put together.

If you're protesting gay marriages, you should ALSO be protesting divorced people being able to remarry in the church, because by the church's definition, they CAN'T divorce---GOD made them one, and only GOD can part them.

I believe God meant for sex to be MORE than just to reproduce.

Synn, I do believe that divorce is wrong other than the reasons that God gives in His word. So, I wouldn't get a divorce just because I fell out of love, or couldn't get along or whatever. However there ARE biblical reasons for a divorce but that is for another thread.

I am not protesting Gay marriages. I just wouldn't vote for it.

[classyT]

If it is about morals and religion why am I allowed to get married? My wife and I are both flaming atheists.
In fact we purposely scrubbed the word god out of all of our marriage vows.
I guarantee that my marriage does more to frown on your religion then any couple that happens to be gay.

Or is that next on the agenda? First make sure marriage gets defined in the state as a religious contract. Then continue to narrow who can get married till only Christians of a certain type can get the benefits of marriage.

I'm glad you found a flaming atheists. Being married to someone like myself could be hazzardous to your health.. lol. I don't care if your marriage does more to frown on my beliefs... good for you. Sounds more like you hate god than you don't believe in him but that is my take...

Your last comment is just silly.

[excon]

I'm glad you found a flaming atheists. Being married to someone like myself could be hazzardous to your health..

Hello again, T:

I'm a flaming atheist. You'd LOVE being married to me. We'd have a GOOD time.;)

Exy

[michealb]

I don't dislike god he doesn't exist. It would be the same as saying you hate Santa Clause. You can't hate him cause he doesn't exist. You can how ever say you disapprove if someone used the legend of Santa Clause to use children as slave labor. You still wouldn't believe in Santa Clause or hate him. You would hate how people use the idea of him to get what they want. Same thing with me and god just replace Santa Clause with god.

And as far as my last comment being silly. History is full of groups that use wedges to get what they want.
Haven't you ever heard of the poem by Martin Niemöller.

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

It is up to all of us to defend equal rights for everyone regardless of how we feel about how they exorcise those rights because if any of us are not equal then none of us are free.

[classyT]

Hello again, T:

I'm a flaming atheist. You'd LOVE being married to me. We'd have a GOOD time.;)

exy

EX,

Ever seen the show "Snapped"... well there would be my mug shot and all that would be left of you is a white chalk outline... lol lol. I crack me up.:D

[magprob]

If marriage wasn't "made" then how does it exist, and exist with rules? Virginia is real as far as we're concerned (maybe not in the grand scheme of things) and it has it's own laws.

BTW, this question is mostly a matter of opinion, so I don't know why you are so angry about me stating my opinion along with some facts. Also, you adressed this question to Christians, or right-wingers......so duh, what do you expect?

Because they hate GOD and anything he stands for. Gen. 3:15
They are trying to tear down Christiandom. That's all it is. Watch, this will really piss the canaanites off! The real truth always does.

[macksmom]

All living things have one purpose-to reproduce. Just because the times we live in now, where a person can be a productive member of society without having kids, doesn't make being gay not a defect. Obviously, if you're attracted to the same sex, you can't reproduce, and therefore, in the natural world, you are useless.

And that is my opinion, and I think YOU are wrong, excon. What, did you fall in love with your cellie or something? Is this why you are asking?

So because myself along with others can't produce children naturally because they are infertile... we are defective... we are "useless".

You're stepping on all the wrong toes for all the wrong reasons.

Yet another post to back up my comment to your first one. You continue to show how immature, and ignorant you are on the subject at hand... while pulling out statements you try to pass as factual information when in fact they have zero credibility. You can't seem to back up anything you have to say with logical arguments. Instead you call people useless, defective, and personally insult people.

Maybe you wouldn't feel excon is "nasty" if you actually had anything remotely intelligent to say.

[excon]

Hello mag:

I don't know if I'm one of those canaanites you speak of. I don't even know what they are. I surely don't know what Christiandom is. Course, I recognize that I'm dealing with an anti semite religious fanatic here, so I'll take that into consideration...

However, I celebrate Christianity. I'm thrilled that I live in a country that has, as one of its FIRST tenets, the freedom of religion. Of course, MY understanding of what that means, is obviously different than YOUR understanding of what it means.

To me, and to anybody who can actually read, it says that you are free to practice YOUR religion. It doesn't say that I have to practice it along with you. As a matter of fact, it says that I DON'T! You think it does.

I don't know WHY you would think so. I guess it's possible that you believe that the United States of America is a Christian nation, so it should follow the Bible instead of the Constitution... Hmmm. I know of some real bad guys who think their Bible should be forced upon you too. But, I digress...

I don't know where it says any of that in our founding documents... But, you don't care much for what the actual law IS... You just want it to be your way, and you snivel when it isn't. Poor pitiful man.

excon

PS> (edited) In case anybody is confused, NOW, I'm being nasty!

[Skell]

Because they hate GOD and anything he stands for. Gen. 3:15

You can't hate something you don't believe exists. That doesn't make sense. But then again its not unusual for me to not make sense of Christianity.

Synn brings up a great point about divorce. No one seems to rant and rave about divorced couples remarrying in church. But then again divorced people are like you, whereas gay people are different aren't they?

[margog85]

Michaelb- that quote made me a little teary, I must admit- thank you for that.

As I think many know, I am of course a proponent of gay marriage- I believe that my partner and I deserve the same legal protections as any other loving couple. We are not "defective" because we do not spawn more children in an already overpopulated world- we plan on adopting, and giving a home to a child who needs one- if that makes us "useless", then I don't quite understand what you would deem useful. Our world is much more complex than it was years ago- there are more ways to be an asset to your society than reproducing.

While the idea of separating "civil marriage" and "religious marriage" seems to be ideal, I highly doubt it will ever happen. If you're married by the state and call it a "civil union" and then married by a religion and call it "marriage"... well, there are a number of problems with that.

First, it seems from conversations I've had with friends and coworkers that many straight couples who are married by a justice of the peace through a civil ceremony would be at least a bit annoyed to be told that they were no longer "married"- true, it's just a word, but it's a word that has developed meaning to people in our society, both religious and non-religious. It has a connotation of being joined together in a special way to someone you love deeply- and straight people would likely fight to keep that word in the same way that we are fighting to be included in it. Marriage didn't always have this connotation- think back to arranged marriages, for example... love had nothing to do with it. Neither did reproduction for any noble or holy reason- it was about power, wealth, the joining of families for political reasons... but marriage changed and evolved over time as society changed and evolved- this is just the next logical step.

Now, aside from straight people not wanting to go from "married" to "civily unioned"... there would still be nothing to prevent gay people from getting "married". As someone in this thread previously mentioned, there are religions which have no qualms over recognizing a gay couple as married- so it would happen anyway.

It's the natural progression of things. Civil marriage is the business of the state, which has the obligation to equally protect it's citizens. Religious marriage is at the discretion of the religion. So even if we go the route of separating EVERYONE married by the state from those married by a religious official and call them different things at that level... gay people will still be able to get "married" in their own churches should they choose to do so.

I included a comparison to condemnations of interracial marriages on another post in the Issues section on Prop 8--- if you're interested, feel free to go check it out. Don't have the time to get into it here.

[NeedKarma]

EX,

ever seen the show "Snapped"....well there would be my mug shot and all that would be left of you is a white chalk outline...lol lol. i crack me up.:D

You would kill him? Why?

[speechlesstx]

You can't hate something you don't believe exists. That doesn't make sense. But then again its not unusual for me to not make sense of Christianity.

Don't worry Skell, even us Christians can't make sense of Christianity sometimes.

Synn brings up a great point about divorce. No one seems to rant and rave about divorced couples remarrying in church. But then again divorced people are like you, whereas gay people are different aren't they?

You mean this?

If you're protesting gay marriages, you should ALSO be protesting divorced people being able to remarry in the church, because by the church's definition, they CAN'T divorce---GOD made them one, and only GOD can part them.

There have been provisions for divorce from Deuteronomy on, but it was God's design for marriage to be forever. But I don't believe the bible says man can't undo the union, it says don't let man separate what God has joined together... that wasn't the plan. But to think we should protest remarrying in the church is to ask us to set aside our views on grace and forgiveness. We may find divorce a tragedy but it doesn't mean people don't deserve another chance at happiness... which of course leads to the question why don't we want gays to have that same happiness and starts this circle all over again.

[classyT]

It is up to all of us to defend equal rights for everyone regardless of how we feel about how they exorcise those rights because if any of us are not equal then none of us are free.

Michaleb,

I guess then you would defend one of those creepy men in a mormon cult that have 15 wives and some of them pretty darn young. So they should be free to legally marry as many woman as they like? They have their rights too??

[classyT]

You would kill him? Why?

NK,

I was joking on account of him being a "flaming atheist" and me being a Christian.ok OK.. it was a BAD joke... I just liked the white chalk out line thing.. lol anyway don't think I offended him. And before you reprimand me with the THOU SHALT NOT KILL... remember... Christians can make a funny too.