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    michealb's Avatar
    michealb Posts: 484, Reputation: 129
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    #21

    Nov 6, 2008, 12:03 PM

    Fr_chuck,

    I know a lot of americans don't understand this but you do not have right to not be offended.
    twinkiedooter's Avatar
    twinkiedooter Posts: 12,172, Reputation: 1054
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    #22

    Nov 6, 2008, 01:55 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck View Post
    the lowering of moral values in any nation lowers it. The fact in trying to explain to young children why bob and ted are kissing in public, violates my rights, why should I have to worry about the values of my child because of the lack of values in others.

    This is the issue, the church should not even have to take a stand on gay marriage, it should be addressing its moral issue gay behavior in general. That is what the church is against. You still love the person but dislike the sin. Jesus loved everyone but he also told the sinner to go and sin no more.
    The Church has lost the main battle, in allowing gay relationships to start with, So now they are fighting for the last public stand it can, marriage.

    So at this point it is no issue, the Church lost, since public gay relationships are allowed, the Church is defeated by a immoral nation. Marriage is merely the legal staus of what has already happened.
    Chuck - You have by far answered this question with one of the BEST answers I have ever read about this particular topic. I applaud you and your Christian values. I agree with your answer 100%. The moral issue is what matters here. Any nation that lowers their moral standards won't be around very long. Just look at Ancient Rome for a really good example.
    michealb's Avatar
    michealb Posts: 484, Reputation: 129
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    #23

    Nov 6, 2008, 02:04 PM

    Morals had nothing to do with fall of ancient Rome in fact when ancient Rome failed it had just gone to a major shift to Christianity.
    asking's Avatar
    asking Posts: 2,673, Reputation: 660
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    #24

    Nov 6, 2008, 02:05 PM

    We all agree that some things are immoral--killing other people, stealing, hurting dogs or children, for example.

    But we do not all agree that being gay is immoral. I happen to think that discrimination against homosexuals is immoral. What about my "right" to not have my sense of morality transgressed? Is not my morality as good as another person's? Morality is a consensus view of what is wrong. But there is no consensus on this issue.

    Our difference seems ironic to me, since Fr. Chuck and I tend to agree on so many things that are personal, suggesting that our values are in many ways similar.
    mdug3146's Avatar
    mdug3146 Posts: 5, Reputation: 1
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    #25

    Nov 6, 2008, 03:46 PM
    It seems like there is always going to be people who want to tell other people how to live their life... WHO AM I OR WHO ARE YOU to tell two people who love each other that what they want is wrong?? I am a hetrosexual married women and I feel if I have that right everyone in this here so called FREE america should have the same right or else we are discrimanating against gay people. They are not asking to bed your wife or daughter son or husband they simply want what we all want... EQUAL RIGHTS to marry who they want... people can argue and fight over this all they want... just like they did over giving women the right to vote, letting women in the military, abolishing slavery, gays in the military and you know what?? It will happen marriage is a legal binding contract between 2 people there- in lies the major word you should keep in mind LEGAL it is not a religious act to all people... so lets keep God out of it, we all are entitled to the same LEGAL contracts no matter whar sex we happen to be... what is everyone afraid of??
    kindj's Avatar
    kindj Posts: 253, Reputation: 105
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    #26

    Nov 7, 2008, 02:29 PM

    Well, on the upside: if two dudes get divorced, a guy will finally get to keep the house!

    Just a little levity, put away your torches and pitchforks...
    asking's Avatar
    asking Posts: 2,673, Reputation: 660
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    #27

    Nov 7, 2008, 03:13 PM

    I know lots of guys who ended up with the house. Always the retirement account, and often the house too, but not the kids--too much work. When you can think of jokes where women as a group aren't the butt of your humor, I'll put away my pitchfork. :)
    Alder's Avatar
    Alder Posts: 342, Reputation: 71
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    #28

    Nov 7, 2008, 05:00 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jjwoodhull View Post
    Here is what I don't understand about this...

    It is my understanding that the Supreme Court of California ruled in favor of same sex unions. Then how can a ballot proposition overturn a supreme court decision?
    Was the ballot initiative to amend the state constitution? If so, and if the state Supreme Court relied on the state constitution (as opposed to, say, U.S. Const. bill of rights & 14th amend protection), then an amendment to the state constitution would over-rule the case.
    michealb's Avatar
    michealb Posts: 484, Reputation: 129
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    #29

    Nov 8, 2008, 08:44 AM

    You are correct Alder the ballot initiative was to amend the state constitution.
    margog85's Avatar
    margog85 Posts: 241, Reputation: 19
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    #30

    Nov 8, 2008, 08:38 PM

    My two cents...

    Marriage is too intermingled with religion, and I don't even know how we can begin to untie this messy knot we've made of it.

    There are two sides to this coin- civil marriage and religious marriage. People fail to separate the two, and automatically associate marriage with religion and assume gay people are trying to change religious morals- we are not. We are looking for the legal protections granted through civil marriage. That's all. If our church will perform a religious ceremony for us, great. If not, fine. We do not seek to change religion or alter the fabric of our society- we simply want the ability to fully participate in it.

    Separate is not equal. We've learned this before... it's not a difficult concept.

    Similar arguments that are being used against us today were used to condemn interracial marriage not too long ago- that it wasn't "natural", that it was "immoral", and that it would lead to the downfall of our society. The Bible was used to condemn interracial marriages, much as it is used to condemn homosexuality and homosexual unions- through obscure passages that can be interpreted (or misinterpreted) in a number of ways-

    For example:

    Genesis 28:1: "And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan."

    Anti-miscegenationists typically interpret this verse after assuming that the Hebrews and Canaanites were of different races. Thus inter-marriage was forbidden on racial grounds.

    If you want to see more examples, check out this link: Interracial marriage in the Bible

    Again, it is not my desire to alter religious beliefs regarding homosexuality. It is my hope that those who hate us or condemn us will someday realize that their beliefs about us are inaccurate and misguided- but if that is their belief, they are free to hold it so long as their doing so does not impede upon my ability to live my own life.

    What bothers me most is that those who are Pro Prop 8 are now saying that the people have spoken and that we should just go along with the "will of the majority"- My rights, my freedom, my equality should not be put up for a vote among people who have been seriously misinformed and lied to about the potential negative repercussions of me being able to marry the person I love.

    No vote won by a slim minority of people should be able to strip me of my rights and freedoms- These are things I should not have to fight for, hope for, pray for, dream about having... I have rights and equality not on the grounds of an approving majority, but because I am an American.

    I think it is a major problem that this was allowed to be put up for a vote in the first place. It should have been fought on that level, it should have been kept off the ballot- and maybe we wouldn't have gotten to this point.

    In any case, you cannot give rights to people who have been fighting for them for years, and then take those rights away and expect them to hang their heads and walk away silently. We will fight until we win- and we will win. Those who are fighting against us are fighting to defend their irrational fears- we are fighting to defend our dignity. We will not back down, we will not give up, we will not be silent.
    missingpieces's Avatar
    missingpieces Posts: 70, Reputation: 6
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    #31

    Nov 11, 2008, 08:24 PM

    I haven't checked this site for about a week or so now but I love that this question is getting such a huge amount of posts. Thanks to all of you that were not stupid and ignorant enough to compare gay marriage to cannibalism or something ridiculous like that. That guy makes no sense! It's all consenting adults loving each other, why should you care if it's a man and a woman or two men or two women? So far no one AT ALL has been able to give me a logical answer as to why that harms them in anyway or why it should not be OK. Not one person!
    Wondering401K's Avatar
    Wondering401K Posts: 14, Reputation: -3
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    #32

    Nov 12, 2008, 05:19 AM

    MARRIAGE: Between a man and woman. Always has been.

    MATHEMATICS: 2 + 2 = 4. Always has been.

    SCIENCE: Gravity is real and makes apples hit the ground. Always has been.

    The above is not to say that "gay marriage" is just like mathematics and science. It simply states facts.

    The flawed logic of people to try to make everything seem "right" just because they want to promote their "flawed" position is typical of desperate people... or to take factual statements and think that just because they are mentioned in the same post...
    michealb's Avatar
    michealb Posts: 484, Reputation: 129
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    #33

    Nov 12, 2008, 08:24 AM

    African Americans: Slaves for white farmers. Always has been. It simply states the facts. If we lived in America in the 1860s

    Life is what we make of it and your hate for a group of people shouldn't affect how they live or whether they get equal rights.

    Our goal is to make every generation better than the one before and only by increased freedom and equality can we make that happen.
    asking's Avatar
    asking Posts: 2,673, Reputation: 660
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    #34

    Nov 12, 2008, 09:59 PM

    So I'm guessing you prefer (and find it more acceptable for some reason) for men "as a group" to be the butt of the jokes...
    Kindj, You are guessing wrong. I don't advocate putting people down for what they are.

    In fact, I'm not aware of any words that refer disparagingly to all men. There are such words for women, blacks, asians, gays, etc. When men are insulted, it is as individuals.
    liz28's Avatar
    liz28 Posts: 4,662, Reputation: 1034
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    #35

    Nov 13, 2008, 09:53 AM

    People should have the right to do what they want, as long as it isn't illegal, and marry who they want as long as they are of legal age.

    Everyone is entiled to be happy and just like love is color blind why does it matter the gender of the person that person loves and want to marry? Is it really hurting everybody, no. Is it offending you? Well it shouldn't! I get more offended when I am walking down the street with my daughter and see some guy with their pants pulled down to where I see their underwears or some female butt is showing, and when I see those thing I simply look the other way.

    There are so many other, bigger things, to worry about instead of this. The church I go to we welcome all and one of the pastor is a lesbian and she is good and her and her partner been together for 11 years and is married and adopted 3 kids. Everything is going great with them and they kids are fine.

    To add, Wondering I think most of your views are sick. In your post on the 1st page I meant to disagree instead of agree. Your examples to this topic is very off the wall and maybe you should think before you write but after reading your other posts it seems that you have a twisted mind about other things as well.
    missingpieces's Avatar
    missingpieces Posts: 70, Reputation: 6
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    #36

    Nov 19, 2008, 02:41 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by liz28 View Post
    People should have the right to do what they want, as long as it isn't illegal, and marry who they want as long as they are of legal age.

    Everyone is entiled to be happy and just like love is color blind why does it matter the gender of the person that person loves and want to marry? Is it really hurting everybody, no. Is it offending you? Well it shouldn't! I get more offended when I am walking down the street with my daughter and see some guy with their pants pulled down to where I see their underwears or some female butt is showing, and when I see those thing I simply look the other way.

    There are so many other, bigger things, to worry about instead of this. The church I go to we welcome all and one of the pastor is a lesbian and she is good and her and her partner been together for 11 years and is married and adopted 3 kids. Everything is going great with them and they kids are fine.

    To add, Wondering I think most of your views are sick. In your post on the 1st page I meant to disagree instead of agree. Your examples to this topic is very off the wall and maybe you should think before you write but after reading your other posts it seems that you have a twisted mind about other things as well.
    I think this answer is amazing! And I especially agree with the fact that Wondering is a sick person and we could do with less sick people polluting our world.

    I agree that there are many offensive things in this world that deserve the attention that the ban on gay marriage is getting, our battles are misplaced!
    xxariesxx's Avatar
    xxariesxx Posts: 202, Reputation: 40
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    #37

    Nov 22, 2008, 07:41 PM
    Marriage itself is based on a religious concept.

    Homosexuals are not acceptable according to the Bible and other religious texts.

    So to allow homosexuals to marry would be an oxymoron, is how I think people view it.

    Yet this is a modern world. We are always changing, religions and laws and governments.

    There are many many passages in the Bible about other issues that we choose to look past to fit into society now (such as stoning daughters, wearing one's hair a certain way, etc.). So why can't we look past this issue as well? If we are going to follow the Bible in saying that homosexuals are wrong, we cannot be selective in choosing those passages and overlooking others.

    Gay marriage shouldn't be banned for the simple logic that we cannot live in the past and must adapt to present situations just as we have always done. Of course things aren't the same as they were in the past when homosexual couples were very uncommonly seen.

    The only reason is bothers anyone now is because they grew up believing it to be wrong. No one would have any issues with their children seeing that if they didn't have it ingrained in them now to think it's wrong. It is normal now. It bothers people because it takes them out of their comfort zones from when they were children, and god forbid that happen.
    Doesn't this seem like the civil rights movement? Because it is EXACTLY like it. Would any of you say now that black people should not have the same rights as white people? No you certainly would not. But if you had lived over 60 years ago I am almost sure most of you would agree with your parents and society at the time and say that they shouldn't have rights.

    It's so ignorant. You have to actually THINK and look PAST everything you've been taught, to question your previous beliefs and perceptions and think for yourself.

    If gay marriage offends you, suck it up and mind your own business.
    liz28's Avatar
    liz28 Posts: 4,662, Reputation: 1034
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    #38

    Nov 22, 2008, 08:03 PM

    There is another thread about this subject in current event.
    http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current...ge-279582.html
    yeaitsme's Avatar
    yeaitsme Posts: 6, Reputation: -8
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    #39

    Nov 29, 2008, 12:39 PM

    I agree with the gay marriage ban 100%. And that's not intolerant at all. Marriage is and will always be defined as a Union between one Man and one Woman, period. That's it there's no discussion or debate on what it is. The only debate is what is trying to be done to change it. We can talk in great length about what is being done to the moral fabric of the country, the damage homosexuals do to the poor children that's subjected to their perverse lifestyle. However with all that said if you want a civil union have at it, keep it in your homes and away from the eyes of children, and you should have the right to live how you want in your own home. Just don't ask to overturn the will of the majoriety. After all the dust has settled, after all the hoopla and fanfare your lifestyle doesn't agree with mainstream America. You have been weighed and measured and been found wanting. Go back in your homes close the blinds and hide in the closet.
    asking's Avatar
    asking Posts: 2,673, Reputation: 660
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    #40

    Nov 29, 2008, 11:51 PM

    Yeaitsme, I take it you are a regular poster who did not have the courage to post this under your regular name, hence this one time post. Yeah, it's who?

    I am not aware of any evidence that gays "damage" children, their own or other people's, certainly not to the extent that many heterosexual parents do. Name some major criminals, and their parents are heterosexual. Where's the argument for the so-called damage? Why would the children of gays be any less well adjusted than the children of bigots? If anything, I would bet it'd go the other way...

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