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On Catholicism and justification by works.
Hello,
I've heard it said that Catholics believe that we are justified by faith and works. What works do they have in mind? I'd like to get a Catholic perspective on this. Rob |
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Rob - I'm not a Catholic but I see that the bible makes a clear connection between faith and works and that is exactly the argument that James is making in his letter. In my opinion the arguments I hear regarding that we are saved by faith apart from works really stop short of the full import of what Paul was saying and totally misses what James is saying altogether. What I believe Paul is saying in Romans is that there was this belief held by Judaizers which basically went like this: "I am a really spiritual person because I keep the commandments of the Mosaic law and therefore I am justified in the eyes of God." The Pharisees had their own interpretation of the Law of Moses and in their minds, they were keeping it so well that they had earned God's favor. This is exactly the attitude of the Pharisee Jesus mentions in his Parable: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” What I believe Jesus is doing here is contrasting the fundamental attitude of the Pharisees with that of real believers. Paul's epistle to the Romans is getting at this fundamental attitude even more and explaining that you or I are not justified by keeping certain rituals or rules but are justified by God apart from the law. That is, God is the one that justifies me in His sight, not me in my adherence to laws. What James is saying is that the one who is justified by God demonstrates that he or she is a child of God by his or her works. Let me explain. If God were to be merciful to us and extend forgiveness, it is possible that none of us would ever know that He had been merciful to us. The fact that God had chosen to merciful to us would be hidden away in His mind without any of us knowing that He had been merciful to us. But the bible is saying that God has chosen to reveal this to us by marking us with His Spirit. And because He marks those whom He has forgiven, the result is a distinguishable change in the attitude and heart of a believer. For example, in James, he is saying that rich people have entered into the assemblies of believers and the believers are treating the rich with high regard but showing contempt to the poor believers. Now the rich, as James puts it, "have dragged you into courts" and have even killed some of them. James is saying that if you really believe in Jesus and the gospel, why are you treating the cruel, unbelieving rich man better than your poor brother, who stands to inherit eternal life? James is saying, if you truly are a believer, prove it by your attitude to your brother. Here's my argument in summary. In order for me to be justified by God and receive mercy, God has to extend mercy to me and justify me. I am a sinner and I cannot earn my salvation... I can only hope in the mercy of God. If I have been a recipient of God's mercy and forgiveness, there ought to be a change in me, if not immediately, at least over time. I'm not saying that I need to be producing all kinds of good works. Fundamentally, the Spirit of God's presence in my life as a true child of God is being revealed more and more through my actions and my attitudes. I still sin and fall short of the glory of God, but if I am a believer, my attitude must be changing to reveal that I want to be good and that I long to be made right again. Also, my attitude towards believers ought to be one of compassion and mercy, seeing them as fellow heirs of the kingdom of God and as such, deserving of my respect and love. Again, these things aren't immediate but they grow in me over time if I have been changed by God. This is my understanding of faith working together with works. |
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 Originally Posted by jakester
Most of the mis-understanding that I have seen of what James says regarding faith and works comes from people reading and interpreting from English rather than getting back into what the word "faith" means in Greek. In Greek, the word "faith" and "faithfulness" are one and the same. Thus if you take the relevant verses in james and use the word "faithfulness" where the word "faith" is, it will help to give a clearer perspective, and one in agreement with what you said above. Essentially in the Greek it will read like this - If one truly has faith that is demonstrated by faithfulness. If one is not be faithful in their works, then can it be said that one has faith? |
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Originally Posted by rhadsen
The commandments: Matthew 19 17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. The will of the Father: Matthew 7 21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Good Deeds/Good Works Romans 2 7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: Works of Charity Galatians 5 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by charity. Matt 25 gets into specific deeds which we call "Corporal works of mercy". Matthew 25 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? Or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? James continues: James 1 27 Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one's self unspotted from this world. I hope that helps. Sincerely, De Maria |
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The problem, De Maria, is this. No one other than Jesus has ever lived up what they should be doing with respect to any of those, therefore if those play any part in our salvation, we are without hope. |
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Originally Posted by De Maria
Thanks for weighing in. Appreciate the input. By the way, I responded to your post in the discussion re: 1 Peter 3:19 and purgatory: https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religi...ml#post1332175 Rob |
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Originally Posted by Tj3
Romans 2 6 Who will render to every man according to his works. Eternal life who those who persist in good works 7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: Condemnation to every man who worketh evil 8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. 9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. That seems eminently clear. Sincerely, De Maria |
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De Maria is right.
There are also works Jesus commanded such as to be baptize, to partake of the Eucharist, and to "love one another as I have loved you." Peace and kindness, Fred |
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I like where this thread is headed. I see though, as tj3 saw, that there comes a point where we wonder just how many works we have to do to be justified. I believe there are 2 guides to this: The spirit of god in us, and love. We have faith in god, but the resulting works are of no use to god, unless they are done in his will, and out of love. As de maria said, we are to remain in the true vine, jesus. This is a spiritual saying, in that we must hear jesus' will to do it, by loving him and listening to him. Also, reading scripture(bible), we'll understand the words in agreement with that will. We will begin to act out of love, producing good fruit for the kingdom of heaven. We're transformed into that which jesus is, by obeying his word, and acting on it out of faith. Then the fruits of his spirit are evident in us, and we are no longer under the faithfulness to law, but to that which is living, and full of love. |
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Originally Posted by cogs
We (Catholics) don't give ourselves credit for works. We don't judge ourselves. God does. Scripture is clear on that score. 1 Corinthians 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. In complete contrast, Protestants JUDGE themselves saved. They take credit for the faith they claim to have. Usurping the judgement of God, putting themselves, in fact, above God: 1 Cor 10 12Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. Sincerely, De Maria |
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So then, de maria, are you saying that works are judged of god for our salvation? I ask because, as you say, that protestants judge themselves saved. I understand there are protestants that will say salvation is not by works. |
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There will always be a confusion about Faith & (vs.) Works. This confusion arises because we don't have enough teaching in the church today defining and explaining JUSTIFICATION & SANCTIFICATION.
JUSTIFICATION (the same word as RIGHTEOUSNESS in the Greek Bible) means that we who have no righteousness of our own have been made righteous by God through the blood sacrifice of Jesus the Christ for our sin/unrighteousness. God has declared us "just" through savior as we now have Jesus' righteousness without any works on our part, but completely by faith. Just a few teachings on the above: Eph 2:3-10 Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions — it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. NIV Rom 3:22-28 There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood . He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. NIV SANCTIFICATION (in the narrow sense of living as the holy person God desires now that we have been saved by Christ) means that we have been "set apart" by God to reflect His love and glory in the world. As God wanted Adam and Eve and all their descendents to reflect Him, we are now being restored to the image of God in which man was created. Though we who have been born again are now very active in desiring and carrying out good work for the sake of our neighbors, we still need the Holy Spirit of God working in us to empower us to more and more separate outselves from sin (thoughts, words, deeds) and answer the call of God to minister to the world(the saved and the lost). It is confusing and greatly dangerous to add works to achieving salvation. If our salvation is in any way dependent on us, we will always have room to doubt that God's love is sufficient to cover our lack. Our only "part" is receiving and keeping by faith what God has given us as a complete gift. No room on our part to doubt... or boast over others. Matt 7:15-19 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. NIV Luke 6:43-45 43 "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks. NIV John 15:5-6 5 "I am the vine ; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. NIV James 2:14-19 14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that — and shudder. NIV The point is that salvation is by faith in God's promised free gift... and those who being changed by the message of God's love WILL do good works. As one of the church fathers put it: "Before a Christian can ask what good works he should be doing, he is already doing them". |
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Here's my argument in summary. In order for me to be justified by God and receive mercy, God has to extend mercy to me and justify me. I am a sinner and I cannot earn my salvation... I can only hope in the mercy of God. If I have been a recipient of God's mercy and forgiveness, there ought to be a change in me, if not immediately, at least over time. I'm not saying that I need to be producing all kinds of good works. Fundamentally, the Spirit of God's presence in my life as a true child of God is being revealed more and more through my actions and my attitudes. I still sin and fall short of the glory of God, but if I am a believer, my attitude must be changing to reveal that I want to be good and that I long to be made right again. Also, my attitude towards believers ought to be one of compassion and mercy, seeing them as fellow heirs of the kingdom of God and as such, deserving of my respect and love. Again, these things aren't immediate but they grow in me over time if I have been changed by God.
This is my understanding of faith working together with works.[/QUOTE] When the day of judgement comif then we will know in our hearts who's good and who's not. There is no one left to guide us now Jesus has gone so we can only hope that we are right! |
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Originally Posted by De Maria
1) No one has kept the law perfectly: Rom 3:23-24 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, NKJV 2) If you fail in even one point, you have been found guilty of the whole law: James 2:10-11 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. NKJV 3) Eternal life does not come through the law: Gal 3:21-22 For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. NKJV It is true that if you keep the law and have never sinned, then you will be saved. But scripture says no one has done it, so if you depend upon keep the law, then you will end up in hell. Lastly, who is the law for? 1 Tim 1:9-11 The law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust. NKJV Thus if you place yourself under the law, then... read for yourself. |
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De Maria,
You hit the nail on the head well with that. "Judge not lest you be judged" also applies to self judgment about being saved. Peace and kindness, Fred |
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Originally Posted by arcura
1 Cor 11:31 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. NKJV |
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Tj3,
Right you are. Thanks, Fred |
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I understand here, that there's a hope of pleasing god through works. As with salvation, I believe that the works god gives us to do are even from him: Hbr 13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, [even] our Lord Jesus, Hbr 13:21 make you perfect in every good thing to do his will, working in us that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] the glory for ever and ever. Amen. |
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Originally Posted by cogs
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cogs,
You are right. We can and should try to please God by doing what He asks and commands us to do. Those are the works he want from us. The bible does tell us to "WORK out our salvation." Peace and kindness, Fred (arcura) |
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