[ruko_ruko]

Hello
This is a natural gas application.

Can flexible L copper pipe be coupled to black iron pipe and then buried? I will paint and wrap the black pipe before burial.

Thanks

Ruko

[Milo Dolezal]

You cannot legally use copper for gas. Period.

What are you doing ? Maybe we can suggest better way off doing it... For instance: you can use specific type of Trac pipe under ground. It is flexible and designed for gas...

[acetc]

No, you should not use copper pipe for natural gas at all, and should never join copper pipe to steel or ferrous metals.

[speedball1]

Hello
This is a natural gas application.

Can flexible L copper pipe be coupled to black iron pipe and then buried? I will paint and wrap the black pipe before burial.

Thanks

ruko

Milo and atect are correct. Milo gave you a great substitute with the Trac Pipe.
Natural gas will cause flaking in copper and galvanized pipes. This can cause the orifice to get blocked and prevent supplying the burner. Good luck, tom

[ruko_ruko]

No, you should not use copper pipe for natural gas at all, and should never join copper pipe to steel or ferrous metals.

http://www.state.mn.us/mn/externalDo...1_2003MSBC.pdf

I guess Minnesota has different rules regarding copper pipe and gas. See the above Minnesota web site and search in the pdf for 1346-45. This is a chart for copper pipe sizing for natural gas. Flexible copper pipe is used very extensively in Minnesota for this purpose. Joining copper pipe and iron pipe can be done with an insulating type of union so there is no electrical connection between the two.

[speedball1]

http://www.state.mn.us/mn/externalDo...1_2003MSBC.pdf

I guess Minnesota has different rules regarding copper pipe and gas. See the above Minnesota web site and search in the pdf for 1346-45. This is a chart for copper pipe sizing for natural gas. Flexible coppernatural pipe is used very extensively in Minnesota for this purpose. Joining copper pipe and iron pipe can be done with an insulating type of union so there is no electrical connection between the two.

The last time I roughed in for a bakery, over 25 years ago, I used 1" type "K" copper to supply natural gas to the ovens. Florida still allows copper pipe to be used as gas services. This is from Tampa.

Consolidation is the name of the game among West Florida gas utilities-along with expanding the market for natural gas and propane. In 1997, TECO Energy acquired People's Gas and subsequently West Florida Gas, which serve nearly 200,000 customers in Tampa and the surrounding area.

"Three years ago," says Mike Romano, Peoples Gas senior engineer, "we were very active in sales and service-selling appliances to consumers, installing the piping and making service calls. We made a business decision to refocus our company and form partnerships with the private construction industry. Private industry has the ability and expertise to install natural gas appliances and piping as well or better than we could. We now offer training programs, partnerships and advantage buying incentives to the contractors installing gas appliances. So far, these partnerships have worked well. We continue to see the programs expand and benefit the contractor as our customer base continues to grow."

With housing starts in Tampa running at an average of 18,000 in each of the last three years, Peoples Gas saw an opportunity to expand its customer base by promoting to builders. "But builders and installers told us that gas installation costs weren't competitive with electricity," Romano says. "We decided to dig into this and find out why costs were high."

To find out what was going on in the industry-what other utilities were doing to compete effectively-Romano spent some time with ALAGASCO-the Alabama gas company-and was attracted to their 2-lb system distributed with copper tube.

"With a 2-lb system, you can install ½"- or 3/8"-diameter copper tube instead of ¾"- or 1"-rigid black pipe. The fact that copper is available in long, flexible rolls reduces labor costs tremendously," Romano says.

What Romano found out about the benefits of copper tube for gas installations became an important part of Peoples Gas Advantage Dealer program, which Romano describes as "a partnership with developers and contractor-installers" to promote gas service for new houses. The program provides information and training, sales support materials with consumer information about the benefits of a gas home, and rebates on gas-appliance installations to defray costs.

So it would seem that running copper's still legal in some states. Although some web sites say that copper will flake we have had no comp-laints. Of course 99.9% of our installations are electric in my area.
The union you spoke of is called dielectric uniun, (see image). You don't intend on installing this underground do you? Regards, Tom

[Milo Dolezal]

It is extremely dangerous to do any type of repair on copper pipe used for gas. It is almost impossible to drain the gas from pipe completely. You cannot approach it with burning torch to do any modification to it, including repairs, that will almost certainly come along down the road. This is the main reason why copper is not used for running gas.

Whether you can use copper for gas in your State or not - is fine with me. But as far as my opinion goes, including my everyday practices - safety to the HomeOwner are always my top priority.

[mygirlsdad77]

When using copper as a gas line you never use brazing or soldering, it is always a flaired connection(from what I have seen) I have never used copper for gas. Only have torn it out and replaced with black iron or wardflex. I don't believe that a dialectric uninion would be allowed for gas, especially underground. The post above is about a gas company trying to sell more gas by making install easier and more affordable. This doesn't make it right. There is a reason that copper is outlawed for any gas distribution in almost every state.

Not here to tell you what to do, only to suggest what to do. If you can use copper, great, but I would not make any type of connection underground.. Good luck and please let us know how it turns out.

Your best bet is to talk to the authority having jurisdiction ( in your immediate area), follow their rules and you should be fine.

[ruko_ruko]

The last time I roughed in for a bakery, over 25 years ago, I used 1" type "K" copper to supply natural gas to the ovens. Florida still allows copper pipe to be used as gas services. This is from Tampa.
So it would seem that running copper's still legal in some states. although some web sites say that copper wil flake we have had no comp-laints. Of course 99.9% of our installations are electric in my area.
The union you spoke of is called dielectric uniun, (see image). You don't intend on installing this underground do you? Regards, Tom

Tom

Thanks for the input.
Yes, I want to bury it. Black pipe, according to my township regs, can be buried if painted and wrapped. I plan to paint and wrap. Copper pipe can be buried also with no preparation. I have a 60 foot 1/2 inch copper gas line that has been in the ground for 25 years with no problems. Copper is not flakey. The soil here is 100% sand which is ideal for pipe burial.

Do you have a concern with burial of the pipe?

Thanks

Ruko

[speedball1]

Do you have a concern with burial of the pipe?

Not with the pipe itself but with the dielectric union being buried. Regards, tom

[ruko_ruko]

It is extremely dangerous to do any type of repair on copper pipe used for gas. It is almost impossible to drain the gas from pipe completely. You cannot approach it with burning torch to do any modification to it, including repairs, that will almost certainly come along down the road. This is the main reason why copper is not used for running gas.

Whether you can use copper for gas in your State or not - is fine with me. But as far as my opinion goes, including my everyday practices - safety to the HomeOwner are always my top priority.

First of all the copper pipe I am talking about is not the ridged type used for water. It is flexible type "L" pipe. This pipe or tubing, if you prefer, is supplied in rolls of several different lengths which makes for a very easy and very safe (many less joints) installation. Joints used for this pipe when conveying gas are always flared and never soldered. I have an underground flexible gas line on my property that serves my furnace, water heater, stove and dryer and has been doing so for 25 years. My neighbor has an underground copper gas line which he says is 33 years old and has had no problems with it. Copper IS used for running gas.

[KISS]

Copper.org: Copper Development Association - Information on copper and its alloys. says that dialectric unions are only required in areas prone to moisture. I have one 50 YO connection with no sign of corrosion.

[speedball1]

Copper.org: Copper Development Association - Information on copper and its alloys. says that dialectric unions are only required in areas prone to moisture. I have one 50 YO connection with no sign of corrosion.

Hi Ron,
Have things changed so much since I retired? Is electrolysis no longer a factor in dielectric unions?

says that dialectric unions are only required in areas prone to moisture

Say What?? It's now acceptable to join copper and iron pipes without one? I've been out of this trade for too long. Regards, Tom

[ruko_ruko]

Hi Ron,
Have things changed so much since I retired? Is electrolysis no longer a factor in dielectric unions? Say What?? It's now acceptable to join copper and iron pipes without one? I've been outta this trade for too long. Regards, Tom

The purpose of a dielectric union is to prevent electrolysis by electrically decoupling the two dissimilar pipes. If there is no current flow between them, due to the non conducting dielectric union, there can be no corrosion due to electrolysis.

[speedball1]

The purpose of a dielectric union is to prevent electrolysis by electrically decoupling the two dissimilar pipes. If there is no current flow between them, due to the non conducting dielectric union, there can be no corrosion due to electrolysis.

Thanks for the explanation ruko. I wondered what those funny looking unions were. Just kidding! I was playing with KISS a bit. You do realize it would be better to supply the appliance with a single piece of soft type "L" copper rather thae making a underground joint don't you? Regards Tom

[KISS]

Yea, you need an electrolyte to create a battery. Gas may have a little water in the pipe, but minimal salt like contaminants to make a battery. No water outside like an appliance hookup, no corrosion.
Copper and iron in a damp musty basement, then there is a good possibility of corrosion. Also gas pipes don't condense water out of the air.

[ruko_ruko]

Quote:The post above is about a gas company trying to sell more gas by making install easier and more affordable. This doesn't make it right. There is a reason that copper is outlawed for any gas distribution in almost every state.



I personally do not object to making tasks more affordable, easier and safer which flexible copper pipe certainly does for gas line installation. Can you imagine the potential for law suits if the pipe recommendations made by this gas company were unsafe and the pipe was highly prone to failure?

With the experience and know how of our state’s plumbing experts and 40 plus years and tens of thousands of trouble free installations, I feel very safe in using flexible copper pipe for gas.

Thanks for the explaination ruko. I wondered what those funny looking unions were. Just kidding! I was playing with KISS a bit. You do realize it would be better to supply the appliance with a single piece of soft type "L" copper rather thae making a underground joint don't you? Regards Tom

Yes, I do. I have however, already done it. I have painted and heat shrunk two layers of plastic over the joint and wrapped it with tape that the gas company uses for their installations. If the joint stays dry there will be no problem. If I have to dig it up for inspection then so be it. I'm retired and always looking for something to do anyway. I saved 400 dollars the gas company would have charged me to run the extra distance. But then I spent 150 dollars on the flexible pipe and fittings. So I’m a little better off financially.

Thanks

Ruko

[acetc]

A little something to chew on, the reason natural gas causes flaking internally is due to the sulfur content in the gas, some states may have very low sulfur content and no problems therefore allowing it to be used for natural gas, in Calif. It is not allowed but for propane gas it is allowed, they used to disallow galvanized pipe and fittings but now allow galvanized fittings, good luck, Mike

[Milo Dolezal]

Ouote....First of all the copper pipe I am talking about is not the ridged type used for water. It is flexible type "L" pipe. This pipe or tubing, if you prefer, is supplied in rolls of several different lengths which makes for a very easy and very safe (many less joints) installation. Joints used for this pipe when conveying gas are always flared and never soldered. I have an underground flexible gas line on my property that serves my furnace, water heater, stove and dryer and has been doing so for 25 years. My neighbor has an underground copper gas line which he says is 33 years old and has had no problems with it. Copper IS used for running gas.....Quote

Ruko-Ruko: I was not talking about "...ridgid copper ..." either. Soft copper, type "L" and / or "K" is sold in 60' coiled sections and is widely used for underground and under-slab h/c water installations. It is also used in repipes. Sorry, but it my area of operation - and in other parts of the country I have worked in the last 32 years - copper for gas was always disallowed.

If you don't solder connections - how do you connect T's underground ? Please, let me know, I want to learn...

You and your neighbor are lucky to have U/G copper for so many year w/o leaks. Copper deteriorates just like any other metal exposed to the elements and will eventually produce leaks. We are frequently repiping houses with U/G copper plumbing after 15 years of service. Pin hole slab leaks are big money makers, too, keeping many small companies specializing in slab leaks in business.

However, do what your local Code allows you to do. If they allow copper, than they must have good reason for it. Use copper..

[ruko_ruko]

[QUOTE=Milo Dolezal;1333876][I]

If you don't solder connections - how do you connect T's underground ? Please, let me know, I want to learn...

QUOTE]

Is this a trick question? I guess I would do the connecting above ground and then bury it. Kidding! I don't need a T joint at this time but if I did I would use a flared T joint. For your learning experience today, see the following image URL: