[SweetDee]

Here's a question that I'll ask in it's most simple form: How do we all feel about poor people owning dogs?

[JudyKayTee]

Here's a question that I'll ask in it's most simple form: How do we all feel about poor people owning dogs?

As long as the poor people - and I don't know what that standard would be - can afford food and Vet care, I have no problem with it.

I was recently in the grocery store and an elderly woman was looking at cat food (as I was looking at dog food) and said she pretty much had to choose between feeding the cat and feeding herself. She looked very sad and I believe it's true.

So I bundled up a bunch of cans of the food she was looking at, marched myself up to customer service, pointed her out, paid for the food, bagged it, went back and put it in her cart. As it happened it was her birthday! It didn't cost me much, I know her cat (and the woman) didn't go hungry and we just happened to be in the same place at the same time. I don't know what happens in the long run.

I think we've all got to take care of each other - I am aware children are going to bed hungry and I would be happy to help them but I didn't run into them at the grocery store or, if I did, no one said anything to me.

And as far as Vet bills, I think the cost of spaying/neutering is very high for some people. Maybe if that would be more in line with what is affordable there would be fewer kittens and puppies around. I paid almost $500 to have a 2 month old German Shepherd spayed and there were no complications. I think that's a lot of money. I'm not saying Vets and staff should work free - I just wish there were more programs available to assist with the cost for people who can't afford it.

[excon]

Hello Sweet:

I don't think the dog cares much, and that's fine with me.

excon

[SweetDee]

I agree Judykaytee. I wish it was the law for all vets to have to assist in costs for people who are not able to pay... (just like in my province if you're a doctor -for humans- you MUST donate a certain amount of hours each week to an ER if you've been a doc for 10 years or over).

Imagine all the homeless cats that wouldn't exist.

(WOW! I'm so impressed that you did that for that older lady. You're my hero!). Xo

[Fr_Chuck]

Well I guess the dog can be as happy in a woods, or back yard as they are on a yacht or being driven by a limo.

But if the people can afford the pet, they can be a comfort to them.

[SweetDee]

No matter how much or little we have... dogs just want NOTHING MORE than to just BE WITH THEIR HUMANS.

As long as we don't leave them outside all the time unless it's for some fresh air and romping... They prefer if WE'RE there w/ them, but that can't always be the case.

Just be able to afford to take care of them medically. Try not to get more dogs than you can afford to treat or feed..

[JudyKayTee]

I agree Judykaytee. I wish it was the law for all vets to have to assist in costs for people who are not able to pay...(just like in my province if you're a doctor -for humans- you MUST donate a certain amount of hours each week to an ER if you've been a doc for 10 years or over).

Imagine all the homeless cats that wouldn't exist.

(WOW! I'm so impressed that you did that for that older lady. You're my hero!). xo

Didn't want anybody to think I was posting that for some sort of "aren't I nice" applause - I just think "we" have to keep our eyes open because people all around us are having problems and it's a heads up.

I even donate pet food - and people food, of course - to the local food pantry and it gets snapped up right away.

I used to work a lot in animal rescue (before my husband got sick), have been out of it for a while and am getting calls again because of the sheer number of abandoned animals, probably because of the Vet bills/food issues.

[SweetDee]

Judykaytee, no one would think badly of what you did for that elderly woman... just because you mentioned it. There should be more role models out there like you, in my opinion.. It does need an applause, who else out there really does that sort of thing, HONESTLY!

I have my charities too... and they lie in a different cause every year. This year I'm all about animals:D. (However, if I did see a person in need I'd extend my help ASAP).

I think that because we are on top of the food chain as humans and we were the ones that created the domestic dog... that we OWE them. We have to take care of them.

I truly pray for the situation concerning the shelters and their "raison d'etre", (sorry my keyboard is English, so excuse that there were no accents in the appropriate places... sorry!). I do everything that I can to help find homes for as many dogs as possible.

Short of offering that spaying/neutering should be made way more affordable... and short of complaining about how we need to be educated/schooled and registered to own a dog, I think we need own the responsibility that we created "man's best friend" and perhaps have a monitary deduction in our pay that goes directly to any sector of our choosing when it comes to dogs IF we are dog owners. Isn't this point of view going to cause a "rukus"?? LMAOOOOOOO:eek::p:D

[excon]

IF we are dog owners. Isn't this point of view going to cause a "rukus"??????? LMAOOOOOOO:eek::p:D

Hello again, Sweet:

IF we're dog owners... That's the question.

Let me ask you this. If there are aliens flying about and observing us, when they see humans following their dogs around with a bag to pick up their leavings, who do you think THEY think owns who?

excon

[JudyKayTee]

Hello again, Sweet:

IF we're dog owners... That's the question.

Lemme ask you this. If there are aliens flying about and observing us, when they see humans following their dogs around with a bag to pick up their leavings, who do you think THEY think owns who?

excon

Well, that cuts to the chase - happy Saturday morning! :D

[linnealand]

Hmm... this is a bit like asking how we feel about poor people having children.

I completely agree with the idea that free pet care should be available to whoever needs it. There is no reason a pet should suffer (or produce thousands of homeless pets) because their owners can't afford it.

Life where I am in Italy is very expensive; it can easily be compared to prices in New York and Paris. However, veterinary care is WORLDS less expensive than it is in the states. Andt the same time, I have never found better care, more modern facilities, and more personal attention than the vets have given us here. So why is it so costly in the states?

Before I left NY with my geriatric cat, I took him to the vet to get copies of his paperwork. The vet gave me an IV to take home and administer myself, did a very basic checkup (he had already been given his checkup a week earlier), and it cost me $170. He was getting very thin, and she suggested putting him to sleep. But after we got to Florence, I took him to see the vet the next day. They cleaned his abscess, gave him a very thorough looking over, administered an IV and antibiotics, and told us to come back everyday for the next seven days to repeat the process. They were there, patient and helpful, every single step of the way. Do you know how much they charged for 8 days of this intensive care? About 35 euros. Total. And he lived until his natural death about a year later.

I am deeply disturbed by the times I see people on this site with animals in desperate and painful situations and the owners say that they absolutely cannot afford to take their pets for the emergency care they need. There should be easy access for all pet owners who cannot afford it! At least the animals have homes. It's better than being put down in a shelter.

[white-rose]

As long as they are looked after, fed and loved, I think its okay. A dog is an animal, and they get used to the surrounds they live in, they get attatched and love their owners, not where they live. A poor person could mean a lot of things too. If your homeless and have a dog, they could be good company. If you can't feed your dog or afford proper vet care so they are healthy I don't think its fair to that dog.

[linnealand]

The question relates to dogs, but is it supposed to apply to cats too? What about rabbits, birds, guinea pigs, etc.

I can't imagine anyone is thinking that poor people shouldn't have pets? Let's think about some real life situations here.

A married woman's husband leaves her and her two kids. She gets a job, but it barely pays the bills. They also have a dog. She works a lot and doesn't spend a lot of time at home. The kids have a very tight bond with this dog. They learn to be responsible for another life, feeding it, walking it, playing with it. It's the highlight of their lives. The mom can afford to feed the dog and provide daily care in one way or another, but since she doesn't have savings, she just hopes he won't need emergency care. Does someone think the state should remove the dog from the family because of their low income? Wouldn't the state be spending their money better if it provided basic veterinary care for low income pet owners?

Another situation: an elderly woman relies on a very small pension to get her from month to month. She has a small dog that she's had for ten years. It's more or less her only company. She barely gets by. Should she not be allowed to own it?

Another situation: a man who used to own a successful business goes bankrupt. He loses his house and savings. Technically, he's now become very poor. Should someone sequester his pets?

Another situation: a homeless man finds a very ill and tiny puppy left alone in an alley way. He nurses this pup back to life. This dog is his greatest source of happiness. He doesn't have much, but he does what he can. Would it be better for him to give the dog to a shelter? If this dog didn't find a home, he could very easily be put down.

So what is being suggested as another solution?

[froggy7]

Hmm...this is a bit like asking how we feel about poor people having children.

I completely agree with the idea that free pet care should be available to whoever needs it. There is no reason a pet should suffer (or produce thousands of homeless pets) because their owners can't afford it.

Life where I am in Italy is very expensive; it can easily be compared to prices in New York and Paris. However, veterinary care is WORLDS less expensive than it is in the states. Andt the same time, I have never found better care, more modern facilities, and more personal attention than the vets have given us here. So why is it so costly in the states?

Medical care is expensive, period. And as very many vets will tell you, they do not charge what they really should be if they want to make a good living at it. I don't know about vet care, but I know that most of Europe susidizes health care for humans. So it costs a lot less to get treated. However, it's not "free".. you pay for that in higher taxes, which means you don't have that money to spend on other things.

I work in the medical device field, and the cost of health care is always an issue. On the one hand, I'd like to say that everyone (and their pets) should get whatever care they need, even if they can't pay. On the other hand, I've worked for a company where the cost of the materials to make one life-saving device was $46,000. If the patient doesn't get the device, they die. If the company doesn't get 46K, they can't buy the parts to make the product. And if they get exactly 46K, that means that the people making the product don't get paid, the bills to keep the lights on don't get paid, etc. If the company closes, the device doesn't get made, the patient can't get it, and they die. So it's always a quandary between "doing good" and "doing business".

[jambourrie]

I've thought about this too... but maybe using the word "on social assistance" instead of poor. It seems kind of strange to me, a working class person with a job, who cannot afford a pet lives across from a whole community of social assisted living homes where there are a myriad of pets running around - not to mention sweet cars and satellite dishes!!

It's a hard one... I guess if you are making a living, and paying your bills and you can afford one - go for it. If not, if you are living off social funds - hell no.

But then I guess there are other arguments... like companionship and whatnot.

[jambourrie]

I think my answer might have pertained more to actually obtaining a pet. Not people who are in a situation where they became dependent on social assitance AFTER they acquired the pet.

[JudyKayTee]

Medical care is expensive, period. And as very many vets will tell you, they do not charge what they really should be if they want to make a good living at it. I don't know about vet care, but I know that most of Europe susidizes health care for humans. So it costs a lot less to get treated. However, it's not "free".. you pay for that in higher taxes, which means you don't have that money to spend on other things.

I work in the medical device field, and the cost of health care is always an issue. On the one hand, I'd like to say that everyone (and their pets) should get whatever care they need, even if they can't pay. On the other hand, I've worked for a company where the cost of the materials to make one life-saving device was $46,000. If the patient doesn't get the device, they die. If the company doesn't get 46K, they can't buy the parts to make the product. And if they get exactly 46K, that means that the people making the product don't get paid, the bills to keep the lights on don't get paid, etc. If the company closes, the device doesn't get made, the patient can't get it, and they die. So it's always a quandary between "doing good" and "doing business".

'

I wasn't addressing all pet care - I was addressing the cost of spaying and neutering. My husband was a Doctor of Pharmacy, owned Pharmacies, worked in Pharmacies. Customers always blamed HIM for the cost of their drugs - and so it goes on and on.

I also have pet care health insurance which can be pricey, is "somewhat" comprehensive but may someday allow me to provide medical care for my dogs otherwise would be beyond my reach.

[linnealand]

Medical care is expensive, period. And as very many vets will tell you, they do not charge what they really should be if they want to make a good living at it. I don't know about vet care, but I know that most of Europe susidizes health care for humans. So it costs a lot less to get treated. However, it's not "free".. you pay for that in higher taxes, which means you don't have that money to spend on other things.

I work in the medical device field, and the cost of health care is always an issue. On the one hand, I'd like to say that everyone (and their pets) should get whatever care they need, even if they can't pay. On the other hand, I've worked for a company where the cost of the materials to make one life-saving device was $46,000. If the patient doesn't get the device, they die. If the company doesn't get 46K, they can't buy the parts to make the product. And if they get exactly 46K, that means that the people making the product don't get paid, the bills to keep the lights on don't get paid, etc. If the company closes, the device doesn't get made, the patient can't get it, and they die. So it's always a quandary between "doing good" and "doing business".

These are two different arguments.

Regarding the vets:

Both vets I'm talking about are privately owned. This means that neither one has been subsidized by the state. My family vet in the states charged $170 for copies of my paperwork (3 signed photocopies of my cat's shots and ability to travel for which she charged about $30), an IV bag with needles, a tube of vitamin and calorie booster (about $10), another supplement (about $30), and the visit. That visit lasted about 10 minutes. This was in addition to the $400 paid the week before for a check up, blood work and additional tests that turned out to be normal. Then she suggested we put him to sleep. In Italy, just two days later, for the situation explained earlier, we saw the vet 8 times in 8 days. At each visit, they gave the IV, administered antibiotics, and injected vitamin supplements. The facilities are extremely modern and very clean by all standards. There is need for an appointment, and it is open from 9am to 11pm 7 days a week. There are 5 excellent vets on overlapping shifts. Each visit lasted 15-30 minutes, depending on what we needed. They also gave us a couple of appointments just to see how he was doing and they didn't charge us for it. The total cost was about 26 euros. So there is no comparison. They are obviously making enough money because everything is very modern and well maintained. The vets are caring and compassionate. They said there was no reason to put down our cat, and with their care he lived another very happy year with us.

With our puppy, we've been charged about 30 euros for each round of vaccinations. The first time we came in with him, they did a complete and thorough check-up. It cost about 25 euros. I could only dream of having this vet clinic wherever I am.

On the subject of human health care, I understand many of the pros and cons involved in the various systems in Europe and the US. But I wouldn't call the present health care situation in the US ideal. There are a lot of people who lose their homes or actually die because they can't get the critical coverage they need. Here in Italy, even though public services are available, I see excellent and private doctors. And I know that if something terrible happened, even though I am not an Italian citizen, I would be able to get the treatment I needed, period. And I would be covered. My boyfriend had to have gall stones removed. They took incredible care of him, and it didn't cost him a penny. Private doctors and hospitals are always available to those who can afford it or prefer it.

The French system has been named the best in the world. The US is number 37 on that list. This link explains some of the differences: A PRIMER ON FRENCH HEALTH CARE

The best argument for the American system is the amount of money that goes into medical research. This is no small factor, and no one does it better. But there is certainly a lot to be learned by the health care successes in other countries. And from my experience going to vets here, comparing it to a lifetime of pet ownership and vet care in the states, I'm definitely saying that there is a lot more to be learned on this front, too.

There are also many "socialized" programs in the states that people count: the fire department, the police department, public schools, the public highway system, etc.

Froggy, you're right about the cycle. People and businesses to need to get paid, no question. But there are also a lot of ways to make it work. My thoughts regarding vet care for those in need was more along the lines of a large non-profit organization. There are lots of successful non-profits out there, and they have various sources that are able to support their causes.

[rex123]

Poor people's dogs always listen to them, I'm being serious, and they probably have a stronger bond with there dog then most owners.

[SweetDee]

Linnialand makes some very good points. It just makes me MAD at how the health care for BOTH human and animals are so high in this neck of the woods!!

I wish some boycotting could happen to shake the health care foundation, (in both sectors.. ), but they have us all by the b*lls... It's like we're victims. Imagine how low on the totem pole our canine companions lay?

Froggy and Jambourrie... and as always Judykaytee have it "down".

There are homeless dogs too... much like homeless people. Don't you think they are better off living together and at least having one another?