[simoneaugie]

And would we require high fees for dog owners to test and register? Does plenty of expendable income make for a good dog owner? Or does someone who skimps on groceries for a year to afford a vet account and the testing fee a "better" owner? Is requiring the owner to be more responsible a bent towards socialism?

I agree with everyone, especially Synnen. A human who becomes the caregiver for an animal should be the one who is licensed. I have birds, dogs and cats. Domesticity upon contact with others is something to test for. If an animal or their human fails the test do we charge them a fine? Do we require them to take a class?

[linnealand]

You know how people have been saying about children just running up and petting or hugging dogs, well today in town a woman came over and just started petting rex I couldn't believe it.

Parents should know better. You know that rex is an angel, but they don't. And you never know how a dog could react if it's being spooked or lunged on by a kid who's squealing with delight.

We have a neighbor with a 4 year old who's a terror. She squeals and squeals and squeals at my puppy, trying to run around him and pat his head and so on while her mother just stands there. I want to tell her to calm her kid down, but I don't know how to do that without being rude about it. For now, I just avoid them as much as I can.

My pup is as sweet as honey with everybody, and he is especially sweet with children. But I can't get over how many people I don't know have come up to us and in a split second literally picked him up. Even worse, two different people have tried picking him up by grabbing his two front legs. My puppy let out a cry, and I just wanted to slap them. I cannot possibly express how protective I feel of my little puppy. He's a baby! I don't want people I don't know handling him like that, period.

I want to tell him that he bites. I want to tell them not to touch him. Who are these people? I live in a neighborhood in a city where everyone knows someone who knows someone who knows you. So I can't be overly rude because it would come back to haunt me. But I'm not going up to someone else's dog without asking them the right questions first. If it's a puppy, it's likely in training, too. I'm trying to teach my puppy to pee in the right place, and people are literally putting their hands in his mouth. I want him to learn to pee at the right time, and I don't want him to learn that putting his teeth on people is okay.

[rex123]

I know what you mean when you say''I wanted to tell them he bites'' Actuall I've tried this a few times before once with a girl running by on the road, and she seemed so hyper so when she asked to pet him I said no he might bite and my cousin said, oh yeah he'll rip your arm off, and do you know what the girl(who was I'd guess 18) said well I got three rotties at home I'm used to it and patted him anyway, I couldn't believe it.

It truly amazes me how some people act. And I do have to watch some people, who want to pet him, because all the dogs we've had growing up were put down(because of aggression issues) I am very protective of what energy gets to approach him. I know the odds of him biting someone are pretty low but , some people are really freaky and even freak me out and he picks up on the fact that I am afraid and goes into protective mode, this has never happened with a person accept for when my father is drinking, or if people are fighting around me.

And one time when I was walking I was litterly chased by a 100 pound german shepherd. And its not that rex doesn't like dogs, but he prefers human company and before he used to bark at other dogs but with a bit of work he got over that, he can now walk by other dogs with little reaction. And so the next day when I went for a walk I see this guy coming with his dog and sure enough it was the shepherd that had chased me on the previous day, he crosses the road and asks if I want our dogs to '' meet '' and all I can think is ''are you crazy'' so I just say no thanks, my dogs a bit protective and keep walking. He looks almost hurt as we keep going.

[SweetDee]

Quite frankly... and no one be upset that I'm putting this out there, please...

We as dog owners ALL have the responsibility to make the dog we have human friendly. We are responsible to our neighbors and their safetly FIRST. We may not like them.. or we may not like people even, but we are all human and we have no choice but to stand side by each as a united "thing"... the government will even inforce that by making dog owner accountable for their misbehaved dogs. I, personally prefer dogs to people. It's not an option tho', in the land that we live.

No matter whether an adult or child approaches our pets and pats them w/out notice or preparation... we have to make sure our dogs are "proofed" and safe around humans. I don't agree w/ some kids picking up our pups... but in the case that it DOES happen we need to know that our dog won't bite, no matter WHAT!

I am NOT trying to be difficult, I agree w/ Rex123 and Linnealand about everything they FEEL, but we have to make sure that our dogs are safely never going to be taken away from us because they're a danger OR that they pose a risk of hurting any child or adult just because we don't want to hurt people even by mistake.

We OWE it to our OWN KIND to make sure they are safe... and also to the dog we've grown to love. We don't want to risk losing them...

[froggy7]

Quite frankly...and no one be upset that I'm putting this out there, please...

We as dog owners ALL have the responsibility to make the dog we have human friendly. We are responsible to our neighbors and their safetly FIRST. We may not like them..or we may not like people even, but we are all human and we have no choice but to stand side by each as a united "thing"...the government will even inforce that by making dog owner accountable for their misbehaved dogs. I, personally prefer dogs to people. It's not an option tho', in the land that we live.

No matter whether an adult or child approaches our pets and pats them w/out notice or preparation...we have to make sure our dogs are "proofed" and safe around humans. I don't agree w/ some kids going ahead and picking up our pups...but in the case that it DOES happen we need to know that our dog won't bite, no matter WHAT!

This is impossible. You cannot ever be 100% sure that a dog will never bite anyone. In fact, to be safe you should be 100% sure that they will, if the situation is right, bite. They are living beings, and they have quirks. Think of it this way... I am generally a very calm, reasonable person, able to keep my head under most situations. But there are those days when enough things have gone wrong that I will just snap at someone for something that I can normally shrug off and walk away from. Our dogs are the same way. Why should I expect more from my dog than I know that I, a rational, sentient being, am able of? For example, lets say you have a doxie that is starting to get back problems, and some kid comes running over and picks him up before you can stop him, causing the dog excruciating pain. Do you really expect the dog not to bite the kid in response? Or a dog that has been giving every "leave me alone" signal that it can (turning its back, walking away, drawing up tall and stiff) to not escalate to a nip if the kid doesn't respect those previous signals? Our job as owners is to prevent the situation getting out of hand, but that can mean telling people "no, you can't pet the dog... and please keep your children from harassing him."

[linnealand]

If there's anyone who understands the seriousness of dog violence, I'm at the top of that list. As many people on this site know, I was in a very violent attack by a family friend's akita, used as a pet and a guard dog, when I was 6. I will keep posting this story because, as a victim, I want my experience to be known, and I don't want dog violence to be underestimated. I remember every horrible detail, and I became very afraid of most dogs for a very, very long time. Out of nowhere, we assume because of loud barking and gunshots heard on the TV, this dog whipped around and bit me repeatedly in the face. I suffered three serious wounds: the largest opened up my cheek to expose the underlying bone, one went through the top of my nose, and one ran under my eye. I was literally one millimeter away from being blinded. I was given 60 stitches, and I am extraordinarily lucky that I wasn't killed and that I don't need a series of reconstructive surgeries to save my face. Believe it or not, this dog was never put down. She lived a full life in their home with two children. I don't know if the laws in ny have changed since then.

People see my dog and want to touch him because he's a little puppy with a very sweet face. But my primary concern is balancing his happy, healthy and thorough socialization with positive experiences that do their best to ensure a well balanced adult dog with humans, other dogs and other animals. All of them.

How anyone thinks it's okay to grasp someone's animal on the fly is beyond my comprehension. I don't go up to other people's children I don't know and pick them up because I want to. I don't know if this is a cultural thing or what.

While we're on the subject, I would love to hear your opinion on something that's really been bothering me. There's a large park close to where we live where people bring their dogs. Well behaved dogs are allowed off leash. I recently started taking my 5 month old there, and after getting to know the dogs and the people, I let him off the leash to play. He is a very, very sweet and good little dog, and he has gotten along incredibly well with all of the dogs that go there. I want him to learn to be balanced with adults while he's still young enough to know that other dogs are nice to be around. He hasn't shown a crumb of aggression. There are some other happy puppies of different ages there, too.

Except there's one that is causing me distress. Here's the story. He is also 5 months old. I know how puppies play. Healthy puppies can take turns dominating each other, even mouthing a bit, and they can turn into a big happy ball of fur. But this other puppy, named Libo, gets on my puppy 100% of the time. He just happens to be a pit bull mix, too. My puppy lies on his back, belly fully exposed, and this other puppy stands on top of him biting his ears, cheeks, back, legs. He will even give out little yelps of pain. The owner of the other dog is *not* concerned, like she doesn't think it's a problem. But this has happened 100% of the time all 4 times they have been in the same place. It's very hard to get her dog off him. So I have been the one to take my puppy to another part of the park where there are no dogs. This seems totally, totally wrong to me. Her puppy is the one in dominant mode, risking injury to my puppy, and I have to leave? Another woman who was there said to leave them be, saying "that's what puppies do. see this scar on my dog? that's from when he was a puppy." well, I'm not interested in letting this dog make my puppy get a bloody injury. I have tried making my position known to the owner, but she doesn't seem to care at all. Libo is there 95% of the time, and my puppy is the only one Lido is attacking. So what should I do? What would you do if you were me?


I don't want to stop exposing my pup to the other healthy dogs there, and it's the only place in the area where they can all run free.

[froggy7]

My advice to you... stop it before it starts. My Trink is a very easy going dog, and there are some dominant, pushy dogs at the dog park I go to. Most of the time Trink's fine, but there are some dogs that will just not stop sniffing her. If I see that one is really pestering her, I will go and body block. I just calmly and firmly put my body between Trink and the other dog. This can take some work, as the other dog will generally try to circle around a few times. But they give up eventually and go off to bother some other dog.

In your case, if Libo starts targeting your pup, call your dog to you, and when Libo follows interpose yourself and say "ah ah", "no", "enough"... whatever command you think will work. Libo may be dominant over your pup, but he's not dominant over you, and as a senior pack member you can break up play between puppies at any time that you want.

And, I would talk to the other dog's owner, and point out that she is starting a very bad precedence by allowing her dog to act that way. It may not matter now, but if Libo meets another dominant dog, she's likely to wind up with a dog fight, and that's not going to be good for her dog or for her.

[froggy7]

Which brings me to another thought... I think that it would benefit all dog owners, and parents, to take a/several courses on dog body language. Can you tell the difference between play fighting and the real thing? What warning signs do dogs give that they are feeling stressed, and do they want to escape or are they going to bite? If a dog's hackles are raised, is it always a sign of aggression? Being able to answer those kinds of questions would do a lot to reduce dog bites. For example, if you look at pictures of kids hugging dogs, about 70% of the time the dog's body language is "please get me out of this situation." If the person taking the pictures understood that, they could rescue the dog before the situation gets out of hand.

[linnealand]

Froggy, thanks so much for providing your sound advice.

This dog is so aggressive with my puppy that he is completely on top of him the second he hits the park. He is on my dog 100% of the time. I have tried pulling my dog out from under him, and it's very, very difficult to do by myself. I have to call over to the owner several times before she lazily steps in. it's totally unacceptable. I've even gotten to the point of yelling at the dog to get off. It hasn't done anything, and I cannot get over how irresponsible this dog owner really is.

I just read that it's illegal to walk a pitbull in italy without a muzzle and a leash. Her dog has neither.

He's 5 months old, and I don't know if this law applies to puppies as well.

Does anyone live in or know of an area with similar laws and have any idea if they apply to puppies as well?

[froggy7]

Ok... you do NOT want to pull your dog out from under him. If Lido is aggressive, that's just exposing your dog to potential danger. If Lido has a collar, you grab him by the collar, say "No" firmly, and pull UP (not back). If the owner complains, explain politely but firmly that you are protecting your dog from over-aggressive play, and that if she does not want you to discipline her dog, then she will need to be sure that the two dogs are kept apart.

And, worst comes to worst, you may need to find a different time to go to the park. Right now your pup is learning that the park and other dogs are very scary, and you may wind up with a fear aggressive dog.

[SweetDee]

Well, we need to make sure that no animal ever harms anyone, PERIOD.

Keeping him on leash in tight reigns should do the trick if the dog is not "easy peasy", short of that the dog needs to not socialize w/ people if he's not safe.

Don't think for one second that I prefer humans to dogs. I do love dogs so much I cannot express it enough in words... I just believe down to the core of my existence that no one deserve to be threatened by any domesticated dog... I mean it's not a wild animal! If the dog cannot be proofed around the situation that he's in he needs to be sure NOT TO BE in that situation. You know? It's that simple, quite frankly.

Anyone who gets attacked by a dog that is domestic and not wild and outside FREE... the responsibility falls on the lack of training the dog's people didn't do. This should be a consequence for the dog owners/handlers.

I HATE IT when a dog who wasn't "proofed", (and YES a dog can be proofed!), and he ends up attacking a human... and then gets taken away from the family and put to death. Instead the human family needs to be "tagged" as people who don't fulfill their end of the doggy deal responsibility so they should either pay a HUGE fine (to the attackee) and/or not be permitted to own another dog for a considered amount of years. I don't know, but SOMETHING should happen to the dog ownersssssss!

[froggy7]

SweetDee, we are just going to have to disagree on this one. There are times when biting is the proper and only response that a dog can do, and a lot of times the bite happens because a human pushed the dog past its limits. I can't control everything that happens around my dog, and at some point other people have to take responsibility for their actions as well. A lot of bites occur because people ignore what both the dog and the owner is saying, and do what they want to. And no, I am not going to proof my dog against that. If I tell someone to leave my dog alone, and they choose to ignore me, they can bear the consequences of their actions.

[linnealand]

... except for kids? Although in a perfect world everyone would be an expert in reading dogs, it's just not the case. We're lucky if other dog owners know anything about dog behavior. Most people don't know enough to make safe decisions all the time. As dog owners, it's entirely our job to make sure that nothing bad happens to other people or animals, at least as much as we can. If that means putting a muzzle on any dog with a predisposition to biting or unpredictable behavior while in the presence of others, then that's what has to be done.

Regarding libo, there's no way in hell I'm going to let my dog become his chew toy. In a way he enjoys the "play," but it's way too rough and unbalanced for my taste. I don't want him learning to be aggressive and I don't want him injured. It bothers me that a couple of other dog owners have told me to leave them to do whatever. It's not their dog, and they aren't taking the risk seriously. Basic puppy rough housing is one thing, but this is not balanced play.

What really, really upsets me is that the owner doesn't care, and she has no interest in taking responsibility. She's also at the park with him pretty much whenever I get the chance to go. She knows that I'm upset, but that hasn't done anything to change her. I've been wary of getting really serious with her because I'm new to the park and since all the dog owners there know each other, I don't want their first impression of me to be seriously hard-core.

But the truth is that I want to tell her that when my dog is there, I want her to leave, muzzle or leash her dog. Can I do that? I have been the one to take my dog away from the area, but HE's not the one doing anything wrong, and this defeats the purpose of going to the park specifically to play with the other great dogs. In all seriousness, do you think my suggestion is unreasonable? She doesn't see it as a problem. I do.

[froggy7]

It's not really a question of reasonable or unreasonable. You can ask, but if she doesn't think it's a problem, she's not going to do it. You might want to see if there are mutually agreeable times that you can work out, so that the dogs don't need to be there at the same time. Failing that, you will probably have to find a different park. You can always go back later when both dogs are older and see if the behavior changes any.

[SweetDee]

No, absolutely NO. It is never OK for a dog to bite a human.. (no matter how much love we have for our pet), in everyday occurrences a dog should never be a threat to a person or child. Then you just don't get it.

I'm not talking about the worst cases like animal abuse... in any respect. I think you might be tho'..

I'm talking about when you are walking your dog on leash... and someone comes up to your dog and wants to pet it. In this case, which is not an unreasonable situation there needs to be trust that your dog is able to respond appropriately. At the least it needs to be assumed that you are in total control of your animal and that between the TWO OF YOU the person who wants to engage your dog is assumed "safe". This is my point... (maybe I should have clarified earlier.. ) ;)

[linnealand]

Regarding the sweetdee's comment, I have to totally agree. It is inevitable that some people are going to come up to your dog. You can't expect everyone to know proper dog etiquette. A warning from you is one thing, but it can't replace proper training and control of your dog. Any dog that can't handle the occasional person coming close to it should not be walked in public without additional protection (such as a muzzle). Children are especially vulnerable, and they don't always know what might excite a dog or follow the rules given to them. Froggy, perhaps I'm reading your post incorrectly, but it appears that you're saying it's not your problem. It looks you own a powerful looking dog; that makes this even more important.

It's not really a question of reasonable or unreasonable. You can ask, but if she doesn't think it's a problem, she's not going to do it. You might want to see if there are mutually agreeable times that you can work out, so that the dogs don't need to be there at the same time. Failing that, you will probably have to find a different park. You can always go back later when both dogs are older and see if the behavior changes any.

If it's illegal here to have a pit bull without a muzzle and a leash, and her 5 month old has neither, and he's constantly being rather overly aggressive with my non-aggressive puppy, and this is the only dog park within walking distance in my area, and I can only go when I'm not working, and this woman doesn't appear to have a job as she's always going there, why should I have to be the one to leave?

I'm going to protect my dog, no question. But this response is pretty odd. It's also what bothered me about the reactions of a couple of other people at the dog park. Waiting for this woman's dog to draw blood or seriously injure my puppy before she takes her dog's mouth and behavior seriously is not absolutely not an option. In the meantime, I've stopped taking my puppy to the park, but this is not an acceptable solution. He needs to continue to play with other dogs, and safely. I think it's *all* a question of what's reasonable or unreasonable.

I would really like to know what other dog owners with a lot more dog park experience would say to this woman if they were in my situation.

[froggy7]

regarding the sweetdee's comment, i have to totally agree. it is inevitable that some people are going to come up to your dog. you can't expect everyone to know proper dog etiquette. a warning from you is one thing, but it can't replace proper training and control of your dog. any dog that can't handle the occasional person coming close to it should not be walked in public without additional protection (such as a muzzle). children are especially vulnerable, and they don't always know what might excite a dog or follow the rules given to them.

I ran across a good example of what I meant, and now, of course, can't find it again. Let me do some more googling and see if I can post it again later. It may be that we have a different definition of "biting". I'm not talking about dogs ripping out people's throats. I also feel that cats have a right to scratch people. And, for that matter, that people have a right to defend themselves.

if it's illegal here to have a pit bull without a muzzle and a leash, and her 5 month old has neither, and he's constantly being rather overly aggressive with my non-aggressive puppy, and this is the only dog park within walking distance in my area, and i can only go when i'm not working, and this woman doesn't appear to have a job as she's always going there, why should i have to be the one to leave?

i'm going to protect my dog, no question. but this response is pretty odd. it's also what bothered me about the reactions of a couple of other people at the dog park. waiting for this woman's dog to draw blood or seriously injure my puppy before she takes her dog's mouth and behavior seriously is not absolutely not an option. in the meantime, i've stopped taking my puppy to the park, but this is not an acceptable solution. he needs to continue to play with other dogs, and safely. i think it's *all* a question of what's reasonable or unreasonable.

i would really like to know what other dog owners with a lot more dog park experience would say to this woman if they were in my situation.

You shouldn't have to leave. But it gets down to the fact that you can't control other people's behavior, you can only change yours. You go up to this woman, and ask her to muzzle Lido when your dog is there. Given what you have said about her responses up to now, she's most likely going to say no, it's your problem, you deal with it. Then what? You can go to the police, and they may give her a ticket, but then again they may say that they have other more important things to deal with. She may agree to muzzle the dog, but that's not going to stop it attacking yours and pinning yours down, it just won't be able to bite yours (and will probably still be able to get ears, because they can poke through the muzzle).

The practical problem is that you can ask the woman to do whatever you think is reasonable. And, if she is a reasonable person, she would do it. But, if she were a reasonable person, you wouldn't be in this situation because she would have done something when you first approached her about controlling her dog. And unreasonable people don't respond to reasonable requests. Therefore, the unfortunate reality is that you are the person who is probably going to have to change your behavior, because she won't change hers.

[froggy7]

Ah hah! I found the page I was looking for. From News -Canine Body Language 101 Animal News, Dog News, Cat News, Pet News, Animal News Article, Pet News Article, Animals In The News

A woman is walking her dog, and a stranger approaches and tries to pet the dog, while explaining that “all dogs like him.”

The dog retreats to the far end of his leash, away from the man. The man keeps on toward him.

The dog crouches down and turns his head to the side. “Nice doggy!” says the man.
The dog licks his lips. “Hungry, boy?”
The dog bares his teeth. But he's wagging his tail, even if it is tucked under him.

The man reaches out to pet him, and the dog snaps at him! With no warning whatsoever, right?
====================

Now, I can point out a whole lot of things that went wrong in this scenario, but I am not going to say that the dog was wrong in biting. (I know it says "snaps at him", but that snap can quite easily wind up biting a hand that is stretched out to pet the dog if you aren't fast enough to pull it away.) We know that the man didn't mean any harm, but the dog doesn't, and is reacting to a perceived threat.

If you stick to your "owners need to be 100% sure that the dog isn't going to bite, ever"... what do you propose should be done with dogs like this? (Which are probably the majority of the types of situations where bites occur.) No matter how much socialization and obedience the owner does, they can never be 100% sure that the dog isn't going to bite again. And, in fact, they can probably be 100% sure that the dog WILL bite again if the situation is right. They can work on decreasing the likelihood that the dog is in that situation, but unless they are psychic, they can't be sure.

To me, this is an attack provoked by the humans, and the humans need to take responsibility for it. (Of course, I doubt that the nice man in the example is ever going to admit that he was wrong.) I'll cut kids some slack in this situation, but only because I'm going to transfer the responsibility to their parents. If the kid can't make reasoned judgements, then it's up to the parents to protect them. And, in the example given, the dog's owner has some responsibility to protect her dog from situations that it can't handle, so some of the blame is hers, as well.

[SweetDee]

Linnealand, I'm not sure I have enough information to offer an opinion.

Is this park one that you leash the dog and walk on a path or is it an open area where the dogs are allowed to go off leash and all you doggy moms stand around watching the dogs play?

Perhaps a little more of a visual might be helpful.. Thanks xo

[linnealand]

Linnealand, I'm not sure I have enough information to offer an opinion.

Is this park one that you leash the dog and walk on a path or is it an open area where the dogs are allowed to go off leash and all you doggy moms stand around watching the dogs play?

Perhaps a little more of a visual might be helpful...? Thanks xo

Okay, that's a good question. :) it's the kind with a big open field with benches at the end where all the dogs are let off leash and the doggy moms and dads sit around and chat. There's also another long, wide tree-lined walk that leads up to the field, as well as a small fenced in area used for smaller dogs (and dogs that don't get along well with others), and a children's playground nearby.

Froggy, I think your last post made your point much better. I can appreciate what you're trying to say.