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    ericmarcial's Avatar
    ericmarcial Posts: 18, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Sep 19, 2008, 10:59 AM
    Self defense in assult family violence?
    In Texas, can both parties of a fight be found guilty of assult family violence if one was defending himself in his own home? The one that instigated the fight has already plead guilty but the one who defended himself has a reset court date on oct 1st.. can both be found guilty? Is there no victim in this case? Both are guilty of the same thing? :confused:
    JudyKayTee's Avatar
    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,503, Reputation: 4600
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    #2

    Sep 19, 2008, 12:21 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by ericmarcial
    In Texas, can both parties of a fight be found guilty of assult family violence if one was defending himself in his own home? the one that instigated the fight has already plead guilty but the one who defended himself has a reset court date on oct 1st.. can both be found guilty? is there no victim in this case? both are guilty of the same thing? :confused:

    If it's a criminal case the Plaintiff is the State of Texas so, yes, both parties could possibly be found guilty of assault.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #3

    Sep 19, 2008, 01:00 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by ericmarcial
    can both be found guilty?
    Hello eric:

    In Texas, not only can both of you be found guilty, they'll grab some stranger off the street and find him guilty too.

    That doesn't mean both of you ARE guilty. Therefore, if you're innocent, they'll have to PROVE your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt at a trial. If you're, in fact, NOT guilty, they won't be able to do that.

    You DO have a lawyer, don't you? Don't do anything without a lawyer.

    excon
    ericmarcial's Avatar
    ericmarcial Posts: 18, Reputation: 1
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    #4

    Sep 19, 2008, 02:05 PM
    But wait... if the other person was already found guilty then how am I supposed to be guilty too? Why won't the DA understand that one of us is a victim and that one of us was attacked in our own home and acted in selfdefense and that the person that did the attacking was alread found guilty.. why won't they drop my charges? They just want my money huh? This is why people develop mistrust for the law.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #5

    Sep 19, 2008, 03:01 PM
    Hello again, eric:

    I don't know why prosecutors in Texas are so contrary. Maybe they don't care about your guilt or innocence. Maybe they're just keeping score Maybe you're just a notch on their belt. Maybe it's because that's how they get promoted. They certainly don't get ahead by being nice. This is Texas, after all.

    excon
    twinkiedooter's Avatar
    twinkiedooter Posts: 12,172, Reputation: 1054
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    #6

    Sep 20, 2008, 07:03 PM

    Ex - have you been to Texas lately to find this out first hand? I, for one will never set foot in Texas ever again. Back in 1999 while waiting for my son to get off a public pay phone at a convenience store, the store clerk had called the cops and reported us for loitering. I drove away from the store and was stopped about a mile down the road and questioned why was I loitering(?) at the convenience store. Unbelieveable. You can't even wait in your car while someone finishes a phone call. Have to get your stuff and git or explain to the gestapo a/k/a The Dept of Public Safety. Safety what, who knows? P.S. there is no loitering allowed in the whole state, anywhere, believe it or not, since before 1999.

    The poster is just going to have to go through the motions of his trial to prove his innocence. I hope he has an attorney to help prove his innocence.
    ericmarcial's Avatar
    ericmarcial Posts: 18, Reputation: 1
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    #7

    Sep 23, 2008, 07:46 AM

    When I went to the 1st court appearance I went without an attorney and had a date reset.. while there I spoke to the DA's assistant and tried to tell my side of the story.. he didn't care.. all he wanted was for me to plea guilty and take a class c misdemeanor and pay 250 court cost. I declined the offer... now to fight this mess a lawyer quoted me 1000. So if I hire a lawyer and win- I still lose cause the system beat me out of 1000. I almost want to take the class c misdemeanor
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #8

    Sep 23, 2008, 08:15 AM
    Hello again, eric:

    Wow, Dude!! First you're all righteous about how you can be found guilty when the OTHER guy was ALREADY found guilty... And, NOW, you want to lay down for them.

    Whatever.

    excon
    ericmarcial's Avatar
    ericmarcial Posts: 18, Reputation: 1
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    #9

    Sep 23, 2008, 08:23 AM

    I lose either way... my hard earned money is being robbed from me... the lesser of the two evils is hard to tell. What would you rather do? Pay 1000 to fight and maybe win? Or pay 250 and have a class c misdemeanor on your record and be done with it? If I win I still have to pay the court cost any way right? So there's no away around the court cost regardless. The class c misdemeanor is the catch. The system has me by the balls... "whatever"?
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #10

    Sep 23, 2008, 08:42 AM
    Hello again, eric:

    The FIRST question to answer, is ARE YOU GUILTY? I know you don't understand HOW you can be guilty too, but just because one guy assaulted another, it DOESN'T mean that the other guy DIDN'T assault the first guy too. By the way, did you READ the law??

    I don't know what happened. YOU know what happened. YOU know what the cops know. YOU know whether it's the TRUTH or not. YOU know whether you can PROVE it or not. YOU know how credible the other person is. YOU know how credible YOU are. YOU know the history behind these events.

    If you're GUILTY, and you DID what the criminal law says you CAN'T do, then lay down because you'll be found guilty. But, if you DIDN'T break the law, don't lay down because if you didn't do it, they can't PROVE you did. And, PROVE it, they must. Therefore, if it was me, THOSE are the criteria I would base MY decision on.

    excon
    traceyrco's Avatar
    traceyrco Posts: 62, Reputation: -5
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    #11

    Sep 23, 2008, 08:43 AM

    Eric,

    Excon is right about not laying down. What do you have to lose in trying to fight it - even if you have to try it yourself?

    Listen, if you're anywhere near Dallas or another city with a law school you can go to the law library - and check your local court house too for a law library. I don't blame you for not wanting to get an attorney - so go look up the West legal forms, Dorsaneo's, O'Connors... Vernons, etc. Look up your situation in all of these books and it gives you all the forms you need and how to argue what you're being charged with - especially O'Connors is good at telling you how to defend yourself. These are the same books the lawyers use - so you will gain lots of useful knowledge from them. They even tell you how to handle the trail too - how to admit evidence, etc. In these books you can find the forms that ask the DA to provide you with all the evidence they have against you etc. From what I've seen in TX a lot of times just you asking them for all this stuff will cause them to drop the action - because - after all - they just want you to plea and they get the conviction on their score card.

    You can load them up with paper work through these books. And in the case of SMU in Dallas they also have clinics where you can learn what to do in court. Request them to have a court reporter present too - if this is being heard in JP court. If they won't you can hire your own court reporter - this keeps record of the kangaroo courts so you can appeal if you want.

    Excon is right - why do you want to lay down for them? If you don't see value in the attorney then try it yourself - if you fail you still get the same thing they're offering now. The other thing you need to consider is that this conviction will go on your record and that isn't good. If you get nailed a few times with assault - it could eventually be bumped up to a felony in the case of domestic violence. So there's more at stake than a few hundred dollars - plus some employers won't hire you with an assault conviction.

    Another trick my former co-worker uses when he has traffic fines he can't afford to pay is he goes to the jail about 11:20 PM on a Friday or Saturday night. As long as he's there before midnight - this time counts as one day towards your fine payment (you get so much money a day for sitting in jail). Then, because it's a weekend night - they have lots of drunks that need locking up. Well for some reason you can't put drunks in with other people in Texas so they let you leave and they have to consider this your time served. Now, I don't know if this still works in Texas or not, you'd have to check into it - but I thought it was funny nonetheless. Also, this probably only works in the smaller towns where they don't have a lot of jail cells. Of course it would be my luck the cops would be eating donuts and not picking up drunks the night I tried this - ha.

    Best of luck.
    ericmarcial's Avatar
    ericmarcial Posts: 18, Reputation: 1
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    #12

    Sep 23, 2008, 09:01 AM

    OK... I appreciate your comments/effort... but if defending yourself/in your own home/after the person threw and hit you with a bottle/after you told the person to leave/after they swung at you first instead of leaving- is against the law then I guess I'm guilty. And that would mean that its against the law to defend yourself in your own home.on top of all this keep in mind the other person has already been found guilty. Here's the other catch... like you say- they have to prove I'm guilty. (that I defended myself/not assulted someone) what if I don't get a lawyer... am I automatically guilty? What happens if I go to court on the 1st without a lawyer again? Your answer is what?---get a lawyer, pay the 1000? I'm screwed either way by THE system when its already been proven that I was a victim. So we are both victims? I guess the system is the one assulting both of us? Or screwing us?
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #13

    Sep 23, 2008, 09:14 AM
    Hello eric:

    Yes, the system is screwing with you... However, if you look real deep, you'll find that you're responsible for the events that occur in your life.

    You say, you guess you're guilty... But, that ain't the way the law reads... I'm telling you, READ IT. You either ARE, or you're NOT guilty. There ain't no in between.

    You also use words like "defending yourself", but you have no idea what those words mean in a legal context. It used to mean that you had to be cornered, with NO WAY OUT, and you had NO CHOICE but to defend yourself. COULD you have gotten away?? Or did you chase him, and call that defending yourself?

    I say USED TO, because the standards of self defense have recently changed, especially in TEXAS. Now, you don't have to be threatened at all. You don't even have to be the victim. All you need to do is see a guy robbing your neighbor. Then you can shoot him in the back while he's running away, and claim self defense.

    So, since the law on self defense is much deeper that you can imagine, you cannot possibly make it through this WITHOUT legal representation. It would be foolish to try.

    excon
    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,301, Reputation: 7692
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    #14

    Sep 23, 2008, 10:20 AM

    Several things, one Texas over all is a good state for self defense, in many states it is not so. What is looked at is your ability to run away from the fight, even if in your own home. If there was the ability to run away, they look at the fighting back differently often.

    But yes, they can charge both people with starting the fight, and it will depend on what he plead to. Also you need a transcript of his statement, normally if they plead guility they have to read a statement of what they did. If they in this statement in court claim they attacked you first, that will be your defense.
    ericmarcial's Avatar
    ericmarcial Posts: 18, Reputation: 1
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    #15

    Sep 23, 2008, 10:31 AM

    Thanks Fr_Chuck... I have a statement that I typed up that summarizes what happened and got my wife and friend to sign it as my witnesses. They were present when it happened. The statement says that I was hit with a bottle and then told the person to leave my house.. instead of leaving the person attacked me and tried to hit me.. I swung back once in self defense and the other person fell and then called the cops. We both got arrested. I'm going to try to present this to the judge when I go to court on the 1st. I don't know what else to do except spend money on a lawyer. If this type of self defense is illegal then I guess I should have let the person beat me up in my own home. I don't know? This sucks
    JudyKayTee's Avatar
    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,503, Reputation: 4600
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    #16

    Sep 23, 2008, 10:34 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ericmarcial View Post
    thanks Fr_Chuck....i have a statement that i typed up that summarizes what happend and got my wife and friend to sign it as my witnesses. they were present when it happend. the statement says that i was hit with a bottle and then told the person to leave my house..instead of leaving the person attacked me and tried to hit me..i swung back once in self defense and the other person fell and then called the cops. we both got arrested. im gonna try to present this to the judge when i go to court on the 1st. idk what else to do except spend money on a lawyer. if this type of self defense is illegal then i guess i should have let the person beat me up in my own home. idk? this sucks

    Can't speak for where you are but in NYS EVERYBODY gets arrested. The Police don't have the time or inclination to sort out the details - the Court takes care of that.

    I am seeing more and more accidents where BOTH parties are given tickets and then the Court sorts that part out, too. Same situation, different subject.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #17

    Sep 23, 2008, 10:44 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ericmarcial View Post
    what else to do except spend money on a lawyer.
    Hello again, eric:

    Spend money on a lawyer or take their deal. There AIN'T no other choice! You NEED a lawyer. Statements are NOT acceptable in court. Look, if you HAVE evidence, but don't know how to get it IN, then you might as well not have it. No, court is NOT about fair. Court is about WINNING!

    YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO THIS STUFF! Can I say it any plainer?? You don't need THEM to convict you. You'll convict YOURSELF.

    I'm not going to say this again.

    excon
    ericmarcial's Avatar
    ericmarcial Posts: 18, Reputation: 1
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    #18

    Sep 23, 2008, 10:53 AM

    Maybe your right excon... with my luck you ARE right. That's what sucks so much about this whole thing. They won't listen to me unless I have a lawyer- I shouldn't need one but I guess I do. The system is forcing me to get one.. maybe hoping that I will plea guilty instead.. idk. They don't seem very concerned about the truth/justice. I've called twice to the DA's office.. they won't talk to me. I guess they don't have to. Sucks.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #19

    Sep 23, 2008, 11:00 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ericmarcial View Post
    they wont talk to me. i guess they dont have to. sucks.
    Hello again, eric:

    Good! The more you talk to THEM, the more you hang yourself. THEY'RE the enemy. You're right. They're NOT interested in justice. They don't want to help you. They want to SCREW you! They're interested in WINNING. That should be YOUR goal too.

    excon
    traceyrco's Avatar
    traceyrco Posts: 62, Reputation: -5
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    #20

    Sep 23, 2008, 11:53 AM

    Eric,

    Lawyer or not, you really need to get yourself familiar with the laws as excon said. You can read a limited version of the laws at Penal Code If you look at the post I made previously there are all kinds of resources for you to learn how to represent yourself and even if you have a lawyer, you need to be familiar with all of this so you can get the best defense possible. With all these books out there with the laws, the forms to turn into the court, the rules of evidence, the proceedures and all of that clearly laid out for you it is silly for you to act so helpless.

    Agreed having a lawyer is really the best way to deal with this - if you are however against the wall you can help yourself with O'Connors, West, Vernons, Desareo - and do a pretty decent job of it.

    What you fail to understand is an assault conviction on your record can screw your life up in certain areas - so with a lawyer or on your own you owe it to yourself to fight this and you are absolutely not helpless in Texas - they have lots of resources for Pro Se litigants. Criminal court however would lead me to spend the $1,000 - and don't let the lawyer take the $1,000 and then get you to plea out - geesh - seen that many a times.

    It's your life and you need to invest in yourself by spending some time at the library or law library with the above referenced books. This way you can make sure you get your monies worth with the layer or if you don't have the $1,000 you have a chance.

    Best of luck

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