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    High Max's Avatar
    High Max Posts: 271, Reputation: 43
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    #1

    Sep 14, 2008, 09:36 AM
    High maintenance women, entitlement complexes, and men losing their manhood
    My views are considered extreme by some, but after a lot of observation I have come to some of my own conclusions. A lot of people agree with me, and I'm just curious if anyone has any arguments or can help support my argument.

    Lets rewind to about 50 some years ago. Women were the house wives. They took care of the kids, they did all of the house hold chores. A man was a man. Strong willed, didn't show a whole lot of emotion, was cool and collected for the most part. He was the provider, he was mostly confident.

    Lets fast forward a few generations. We have a feminist movement, preaching the liberation of women from these old ways, encouraging them to go out and make something of themselves, to break free from "the man" so to speak. I agree that women should be able to hold a good job and have equal rights, please don't get me wrong. The beginnings of this movement were well intentioned and helped women make many leaps and bounds.

    Let's fast forward again to the late eighties through the year 2008. I see something that I had never really seen before this time. Extremely high maintenance, demanding women. These kinds of women are not your average person. Their imagine means anything and everything to them. Their good looks, material possesions and social popularity is the only thing that exist in their world. They are extremely rude, obnoxious and have an attitude of entitlement. They take pride in their ability to whip a man. They love being able to have any man on their finger, that he will gravitate around her, that he will buy her almost anything she wants. He will put up with her bad attitude, because she is good looking, and she KNOWS it.

    Why has this happened, I ask you? What bred the creation of this kind of woman, and why? My view is as follows. Starting after WWII, I believe that America started to become slowly more liberal. Look at the 60's and 70's, you can see this. I believe a lot more children were born out of wedlock, the single mother became a lot more common. Boys were raised by their mothers. This isn't a bad thing, but we what happens to a lot of these boys? They tend to be more sensitive and fall into the "nice guy" category without a man there for guidance on how to really act like a man. Some fathers even fail to do this, unfortunately.

    I think the extremist feminism in this country has caused the wussification of many men. Men who are validation seekers, wanting approval, worried about what he can or can't say to a woman, when or when he can't call, how many times a week he can see her, how fast or slow he can move when he is on a date, what's acceptable, what isn't. Just stupid trivial little things that I don't think were ever such huge issues until now. Men turn to feminist blogs, magazines, articles to ask what women want and read what these women supposedly "want". Which is basically a whipped little boy who will put the woman on the pedestal and treat her like a goddess. We know in reality, through deep rooted psychology and evolution that a woman wants a real man, not this kind of new age wuss.

    Too many men have become TOO sensitive. They have become too willing to put up with these behaviors in high maintenance women, that they know they can get away with it. Take a stand men, don't put up with prissy behavior. One day eventually, the fad will die out if men can regain their dignity and pride. I also think that this is a result of parents treating their girls like princesses, telling them they are perfect, constant praise and attention can cause these bad traits later on in life.

    Thoughts?
    JudyKayTee's Avatar
    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,505, Reputation: 4600
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    #2

    Sep 14, 2008, 09:45 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by High Max
    Thoughts?


    My first thought is whether this thinking is the result of your recently posted problems with your ex-girlfriend and your various plans to win her back -

    Was this your thinking prior to her breaking up with you and moving away?

    My second thought is, where are you meeting these women?
    High Max's Avatar
    High Max Posts: 271, Reputation: 43
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    #3

    Sep 14, 2008, 10:00 AM
    Yes, I've always thought this. I shared this view with her too. I meet a lot of them online, I see some in person.
    JudyKayTee's Avatar
    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,505, Reputation: 4600
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    #4

    Sep 14, 2008, 11:26 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by High Max
    Yes, I've always thought this. I shared this view with her too. I meet a lot of them online, I see some in person.

    I don't know what kind or type of women you gravitate to but I disagree with your views.

    You seem to think the situation 50 years ago was the way things should be - women were "housewives, took care of the kids, did the household chores" and men were "strong willed, didn't show a whole lot of emotion, were cool and collected, were the providers and mostly confident." You simply cannot generalize how men were and this was not a good position for women to be in - many were trapped in abusive relationships, unable to leave because they had no ability to support themselves and their children - including in the event they were widowed.

    Perhaps you prefer a submissive or dependent woman. Perhaps you prefer a woman with no accomplishments. Perhaps you prefer (based on some of your conclusions) an unattractive woman. Some men do.

    I don't know where you get your conclusions and your "we all know" and "all" statements are simply not true. You can't lump all women or all men into one category - or another. I am not aware of any men who are out there reading women's magazines and blogs to see what "they" want.

    I've dated sensitive men who most definitely were NOT "wussy." Sensitive and "wussy" are very far apart in my mind. I don't know why you think the "nice guy" category is a bad thing - my husband was an educated, accomplished, successful man. He was also a legitimately "nice guy" and proud of my accomplishments, not threatened by them.

    You seem challenged and threatened by independent, educated, successful, attractive women. It is very possible that the very women you find attractive are the very women who are (basically) poison as the other half of your intended relationship.

    What do you personally have to offer the women - attractive, successful, able to provide for themselves - that you criticize? Water seeks level ground.

    You remind me of women who are attracted to "bad boys" - and then complain about the way the "bad boy" treats them.
    High Max's Avatar
    High Max Posts: 271, Reputation: 43
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    #5

    Sep 14, 2008, 12:15 PM
    Well, the argument was more about what causes women to become high maintenance Paris Hilton types, but since it's shifted I will still answer your question.

    Yes, I find these kinds of women very attractive and sexy, unfortunately most are very rude, snobby, and just plain difficult to talk to. You have to be a complete meat head it seems, intelligence and depth mean nothing to them.

    I plan on working out extensively at the gym to correct this problem though.
    JudyKayTee's Avatar
    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,505, Reputation: 4600
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    #6

    Sep 14, 2008, 01:58 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by High Max
    Well, the arguement was more about what causes women to become high maintenance Paris Hilton types, but since it's shifted I will still answer your question.

    Yes, I find these kinds of women very attractive and sexy, unfortunately most are very rude, snobby, and just plain difficult to talk to. You have to be a complete meat head it seems, intelligence and depth mean nothing to them.

    I plan on working out extensively at the gym to correct this problem though.


    Again - you're hanging out, looking for the wrong women! To ask ANYONE to attempt to explain Paris Hilton is simply out of the ballpark. I thought we were talking about real people, women you do or might meet, and their attitudes.

    What do you offer these women you find very attractive and sexy as far as your looks, depth, education and, yes, success are concerned? Are you confident, can you order in a restaurant, can you string words into sentences (I know you can because obviously you wrote this post - just thought I'd throw that in because lots of men can't - :D).

    Do you spend the evening discussing ex-girlfriends, doomed love affairs, your failures in life, pointing out every flaw you THINK you have?

    Here's my thought on that - you will never find a quality person until YOU are a quality person.

    Someone once told me that sparrows don't fly with parakeets for a reason.
    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,292, Reputation: 7691
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    #7

    Sep 14, 2008, 02:20 PM
    I believe the poster has used unrealistic stereotypes and has based too much of his ideas from "Father knows Best" not real life.

    True most women in the 40 and 50 did not work outside the home in middle income, but lower income they worked in the sweat shops of the clothing industry, in bars, as housekeepers and in hotels, eating places and more. And they did so for longer hours and lower pay.

    Men worked longer hours also, often without over time and no min wage to make sure they made enough to even feed their families.

    In that you have normally the extended family that was raising the children, aunts and uncles, grandparents all who often lived and shared the same house or at most lived a few streets over.

    It is more the movement of people and the break up of families that have changed society.

    Yes the 60 and 70 brought sex out into the open more, but it was always there, it was just done in private without discussion. And while the percent of teen birth was lower, it has been getting lower now over the past 10 years, due more to education than soceity.

    So was there wimps in the 50's of course, if you want to use those ideas, no all men worked in the steel mill, but where all the same emotoinal people they still are.

    The real issue is that today the moral idea of how you treat the other person has been lost with the "feel good" and do it now ideas. They lose site of the long term commitment and the responsibility that comes with their actions.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,008, Reputation: 10852
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    #8

    Sep 14, 2008, 04:13 PM
    I agree here Fr Chuck, people and their want what I want now attitude have changed some, but real men are not intimidated by those females that can handle their business very well.

    From your postings High Max, Your going after the wrong kind of female. Until you understand yourself better, leave them alone, and focus on you, as this post is tainted by your bitterness, and fueled by false assumptions.
    simoneaugie's Avatar
    simoneaugie Posts: 2,490, Reputation: 438
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    #9

    Sep 14, 2008, 04:52 PM
    I have a friend who complained to me of the same thing. He was living with a high-maintenence, perfect-looking witch. Her perfection lured him. His own good looks and low self-esteem made him easy pickings for her "compliments."

    Before long, she was enjoying having him work two jobs, tanning and working out. She spent all of his money, all of hers and then some. If he dressed right, looked good enough and gave her his entire two paychecks she would consider sex... They did it once every three months if he begged.

    I saw that not only was she using him, she was also very sick and manipulative. She was addicted to spending money. She placed an inordinate amount of importance on appearances spending a minimum of two hours getting herself "ready" in the morning before work. He obviously did not want to leave someone who looked so perfect, someone who promised him everything.

    He called me to express his frustration at least once a day for months. I told him to "get out of there!" He finally left her during a trip where she began behaving insanely when he would not give her money to spend.

    The American dream has become very much a visual thing. The next time you go out with a girl, don't look. Of course, you can't do that, but don't let your eyes sucker you. Let your eyes see the truth.
    Almost_30's Avatar
    Almost_30 Posts: 1, Reputation: 1
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    #10

    Oct 10, 2008, 05:31 PM
    I would like to chime in here by asking a related question: What is considered high-maintenence? Isn't it, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder? It seems to be something that is only quantifiable when being compared. Like the concept of "big" or "a lot". If I say, " I went to a party and a lot of people were there", how many people make up "a lot"? For example, some people might consider 40 a lot, but not when compared to 400. How high maintenance does a woman need to be in order to be labeled? Consider this: the woman who was described as a "perfect-looking witch" sounded pretty bad and pretty high-maintenence. Now take for example the following scenario: A man is upset because he feels that his (live-in) girlfriend is high-maintenence. He thinks she doesn't consistently behave in ways that make him feel like she puts him first or like she has his best interest at the forefront of her concern. For example, he goes to the refrigerator and often times it is empty, or close to empty, or at the very least, empty of the things HE likes to eat. Also, she hasn't cleaned the bathroom or vaccumed in almost 2 weeks! She cooks, but not every day, and sometimes she'll go a week without preparing a full dinner for the two of them. Granted, she works full time and bears her share (and sometimes more) of all financial burdens, but she is also strong-willed, knows what she likes, and isn't afraid to ask for it. She is a loving, affectionate woman to him and he is to her as well, but he still feels that he isn't getting what he needs from her. He still feels she is high-maintenence. Is this woman hig-maintenence? Selfish? Self-centered?

    Thoughts? Opinions?

    Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that the man is on disability and has been out of work for almost a year, yet still expects the woman to fulfill all the roles he considers to be "womanly" like cooking, cleaning, etc. while she still works full time!

    ... and yes, I am the woman and I am letting some personal bitterness creep in here, but I would still like honest thoughts and opinions on what, if anything I am doing wrong and how I can improve myself or the situation. Anyone?
    JudyKayTee's Avatar
    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,505, Reputation: 4600
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    #11

    Oct 11, 2008, 06:59 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Almost_30 View Post
    I would like to chime in here by asking a related question: What is considered high-maintenence? Isn't it, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder? It seems to be something that is only quantifiable when being compared. Like the concept of "big" or "a lot". If I say, " I went to a party and a lot of people were there", how many people make up "a lot"? for example, some people might consider 40 a lot, but not when compared to 400. How high maintenence does a woman need to be in order to be labeled? Consider this: the woman who was described as a "perfect-looking witch" sounded pretty bad and pretty high-maintenence. Now take for example the following scenario: A man is upset because he feels that his (live-in) girlfriend is high-maintenence. He thinks she doesn't consistently behave in ways that make him feel like she puts him first or like she has his best interest at the forefront of her concern. For example, he goes to the refrigerator and often times it is empty, or close to empty, or at the very least, empty of the things HE likes to eat. Also, she hasn't cleaned the bathroom or vaccumed in almost 2 weeks! She cooks, but not every day, and sometimes she'll go a week without preparing a full dinner for the two of them. Granted, she works full time and bears her share (and sometimes more) of all financial burdens, but she is also strong-willed, knows what she likes, and isn't afraid to ask for it. She is a loving, affectionate woman to him and he is to her as well, but he still feels that he isn't getting what he needs from her. He still feels she is high-maintenence. Is this woman hig-maintenence? Selfish? Self-centered?

    Thoughts? Opinions?

    Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that the man is on disability and has been out of work for almost a year, yet still expects the woman to fullfill all the roles he considers to be "womanly" like cooking, cleaning, etc. while she still works full time!!

    ...and yes, I am the woman and I am letting some personal bitterness creep in here, but I would still like honest thoughts and opinions on what, if anything I am doing wrong and how I can improve myself or the situation. Anyone?


    Why do you stay? My personal experience - my husband was very sick, almost an invalid, for a long period. He (obviously) couldn't work, he could do nothing/little around the house and was sometimes in a wheelchair. At times he could be difficult because he was sick and often in pain and knew the prognosis was not good.

    Never once did he make me feel - by words, actions - that I should do more and never once did I feel "put upon," nor did I ever feel like I was the nurse and he was the patient.

    Why do you stay?
    simoneaugie's Avatar
    simoneaugie Posts: 2,490, Reputation: 438
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    #12

    Oct 11, 2008, 01:43 PM

    Almost_30, that's an excellent alternative perspective. "Strong" men can still want to be taken care of, no matter what their physical imput. Many of them do not see that they are part of the problem. Being a king with a servant is not living with another person, it's using another person.

    It has to be give and take and it must be communicated. If you feel used and put upon by your man, you need to tell him. His complaints about, for instance, his food in the fridge are valid if he cannot get out and shop. If he can go to the store, he needs to see his complaint through the perspective of the relationship as a whole.

    It's easy to just say, communicate. People have different listening, learning, coping and functioning styles. Maybe he needs a list of things to do? If he is depressed, you may have to do chores right along side him at times.

    This may seem off the topic, OP. I'm talking about those "strong," "not too sensitive" men though. Maybe the changes we have gone through since the 40's and 50's have pointed to the real lesson. We are all human beings, even women, even disabled humans deserve to state their feelings, and be heard.
    united we stand's Avatar
    united we stand Posts: 17, Reputation: 2
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    #13

    Oct 19, 2008, 12:40 PM
    Some of the things you describe have their roots in the Great Society movement of the Lyndon B. Johnson administration. Some of them are from the abusive good old boy system that had denied women participation in the work force and some of them is a result of the femenist movement. I think that most women are still finding out who they are in this new found freedom and are still testing the boundries. If you take time to look at there Girls gone wild videos you might agree. Please don't discount the idea that some women don't want strong men or the comfort they offer. There is also the fact that we live in a me,me,me society.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::)
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    pamela44 Posts: 1, Reputation: 1
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    #14

    Dec 3, 2008, 04:06 PM

    Hey.. I will make a deal with you. Let's say you "men" stop buying all of these magazines that portray women as perfect flawless sexy love goddesses, and we will stop trying to be the same? How about that for a trade?

    You men reap what you sow... ever think about that? Maybe we want to treat you as we have been treated through history? As inferior to the great men? Really, think about that. A man who displays the traits you hate in these women who seem like a normal guy to you wouldn't he? We use to be treated like and we use to be your slaves. Pay back a hua?
    N0help4u's Avatar
    N0help4u Posts: 19,825, Reputation: 2035
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    #15

    Dec 6, 2008, 08:50 AM

    I agree to a certain extent but it isn't the women's liberation that has caused this. It is other things. I think it is more the way politically correct teaching are being taught and all the rules we have nowadays. Like if a boy climbs a tree the neighbor reports to Children's Services that the mother is negligent because 'the boy could get hurt'. They are taught do not fight, get in touch with your feminine side and work it through. Being tough is being bad and unacceptable. They are being taught, in so many words, to be in touch with their feminine side. If they act like a boy they are diagnosed as Attention Deficit and given medication.
    It is the politically correct and people being taught to think nothing of others and only of themselves
    Not the women's lib that is doing this.

    The way to a boy‚€™s heart? New mechanisms for making boys better Erica McWilliam & Jillian Brannock

    Also another thing is that some research claims that boys are eating foods high in female estrogen such as soy (for example McDonald burgers)

    boys more feminine soy - Google Search

    There are books on what you are saying but I can't remember the names of them

    I see guys and girls like you are describing all the time.
    JudyKayTee's Avatar
    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,505, Reputation: 4600
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    #16

    Dec 6, 2008, 09:17 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by pamela44 View Post
    Hey..I will make a deal with you. Let's say you "men" stop buying all of these magazines that portray women as perfect flawless sexy love goddesses, and we will stop trying to be the same? How about that for a trade?

    You men reap what you sow...ever think about that? Maybe we want to treat you as we have been treated thru history? As inferior to the great men? Really, think about that. A man who displays the traits you hate in these women who seem like a normal guy to you wouldn't he? We use to be treated like and we use to be your slaves. Pay back a hua??


    I think that's the difference between men and boys - the perception of who women are.

    Another time when a person appears once, hasn't come back, pops into a thread and disappears. I have to wonder if it's one person, two user names.
    asking's Avatar
    asking Posts: 2,673, Reputation: 660
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    #17

    Dec 6, 2008, 09:52 AM

    Judy,
    Two good points! I like your posts in this thread.

    My husband always made me feel that nothing I did was enough, basically the opposite of yours. I tried really hard to please him for years, but he would always find something new to be dissatisfied with. Talk about high maintenance. It's an individual thing.
    A
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    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,505, Reputation: 4600
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    #18

    Dec 6, 2008, 09:58 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by asking View Post
    Judy,
    Two good points! I like your posts in this thread.

    My husband always made me feel that nothing I did was enough, basically the opposite of yours. I tried really hard to please him for years, but he would always find something new to be dissatisfied with. Talk about high maintenance. It's an individual thing.
    a


    I hope you realize that's HIS problem, not yours - !

    I do notice women tend to blame themselves... and men tend to blame the woman.
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    amaraya Posts: 18, Reputation: 1
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    #19

    Dec 12, 2008, 03:03 PM

    I wouldn't say women have become princesses, on the contrary a lot of the issues you have mentioned have put more demands on women. Now most women work full time, take care of the children and the house and must take care of their husband as well, often without the husband helping out in the same degree. Perhaps these "high maintenance" women you meet want to take care of themselves in a certain way, just as they take care of others? Personally, and I am in nyc where you'll meet the highest maintenance of people anywhere, the women I see who are considered "high maintenance" are also the hardest working and most stressed because of all they do. Maybe underacheiving men are drawn to that or maybe any man likes this at first but then feels as though they can't keep up with what she wants/likes. Either way there are lots of women who are low-maintenance and lots of men who are sensitive and still really masculine and strong...
    asking's Avatar
    asking Posts: 2,673, Reputation: 660
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    #20

    Dec 12, 2008, 04:10 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by High Max View Post
    We know in reality, through deep rooted psychology and evolution that a woman wants a real man, not this kind of new age wuss.
    There's very little direct evidence for this idea, which comes mostly from our culture, not our biology. There is SOME evidence for it, however, and here's how it goes.

    Women seem to prefer the pictures of masculine looking males if they just want sex or a date--heavy brows, big heads, and broad shoulders. But if you ask them who they'd prefer to marry and raise kids with, they want an ordinary looking man who is gentle, patient, kind, and hard working.

    But, either way, the idea that women "want" to be dominated by a "real man" is a myth that only serves men who want to justify their desire to be indulged and treated like princes at home.

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