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dwashbur · Aug 11, 2013, 09:26 AM

How do you handle the fact that at least one of those "tribes" from which the 144,000 are culled never existed?

gromitt82 · Aug 11, 2013, 09:42 AM

I do not know which Rev. are you talking about, though I could not care less as to what he may be saying.

He is probably referring to the 144.000 the book of Revelation speaks about.

This book is a highly symbolic one, and because of this fact, many false religionists have attempted to exploit the message of the narrative to their own theological ends.

The Apocalypse has become a happy hunting ground for some religious cultists who seek biblical support for their peculiar doctrines.

Twice in this Book, mention is made of a group consisting of 144,000. In chapter 7 John heard of 144,000 (12,000 each from twelve different Israelite tribes) servants of God who had been sealed on their foreheads. They were thus obviously redeemed people.

Again, in Revelation 14, John saw the Lamb on Mount Zion. With him were 144,000, sealed with the Father's name upon their foreheads. This great multitude had been “purchased out of the earth,” and they were said to be the “firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.”

However, and irrespective of John's dreams, no one in their right mind can take this statements seriously. Certainly not our Churches!

Some Jehova Witness do prefer to take the Bible literally. I respect their right to do so and if they feel fulfilled by doing so, let them be happy.

But you, who sound and write like an intelligent person, please do not go around spelling this sort of daydream tale, for serious people may believe you are scoffing at them.

Gromitt82

gromitt82 · Aug 11, 2013, 10:01 AM

I'm sure that Freeman was only trying to be funny and he came out with such absolute piece of nonsense. He probably has no idea about the tribe of Dan missing or about the many explanations given to John's dream about the 144.000...

Gromitt82

dwashbur · Aug 11, 2013, 11:58 AM

Actually, some groups do try to take that whole thing literally, which is why they say that only 144,000 will be in heaven. Thing is, all passages that reference this number say they're taken from the 12 tribes of Israel, and as far as I know none of the people included in any of these groups' 144,000 chosen ones are actually Jewish. I'm not sure how they get around that one.

But it gets worse. Revelation 7:8 mentions the tribe of Joseph, except that there was no such tribe. Joseph's lineage, from the very beginning, was split into the tribes of Manasseh and Ephraim. Verse 6 mentions the tribe of Manasseh, so this list has Joseph's tribe listed twice, without mentioning Ephraim. In Revelation 14:1 we see this 144,000 again, but they're not in heaven. They're standing on Mount Zion with Jesus. And according to verse 3, the only thing really distinctive about them is that they know a song nobody else can seem to learn.

The actual truth of the matter: We don't know who these people are, where they came from, what they do, or why they're mentioned. Anybody can speculate and build some kind of doctrine out of it, because everything is so vague you can make it say just about anything you want. The literalists want to make them be 144,000 Jewish evangelists who spread the word of Christ through the earth after the pretribulational rapture. But we don't see them evangelizing, or preaching, or really doing much of anything, so that's nothing but a wild guess. And it's a ludicrous one at that; 144,000 evangelists to reach 7 billion people all across the earth? Uh, sure. Good luck with that.

The only thing we know for sure about the number and the people it supposedly represents is, they're symbolic of something else. Either that or John, as a good Jew, didn't know the names of his own people's twelve tribes and got the whole thing screwed up beyond recognition. Take your pick.

freeman4 · Aug 11, 2013, 01:34 PM

If you think the Bible is a bunch of fairy tails and not to be taken literal I do not know how you can call yourselves Christian. You are living in a fantasy world. A world of make believe. When all this begins to happen then you will know that God is God.

Wondergirl · Aug 11, 2013, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by freeman4

If you think the Bible is a bunch of fairy tails and not to be taken literal I do not know how you can call yourselves Christian. You are living in a fantasy world. A world of make believe. When all this begins to happen then you will know that God is God.

If you could spell, I might even think... well, never mind.

None of us says the Bible is full of fairy tales, but not all of it is to be taken literally -- "the hills clapped their hands" or "the four corners of the earth"? And like Dave and I have said, much of what is in the Bible has already taken place, including the Book of Revelation.

dwashbur · Aug 11, 2013, 04:28 PM

So, because I read a metaphor as a metaphor and a symbol as a symbol, that means I consider it all "fairy tails" [sic]. I'm not even sure that warrants a response. Clearly, your major expertise lies in jumping to conclusions and dodging evidence. I believe I may have seen enough.

hauntinghelper · Aug 11, 2013, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by freeman4

If you think the Bible is a bunch of fairy tails and not to be taken literal I do not know how you can call yourselves Christian. You are living in a fantasy world. A world of make believe. When all this begins to happen then you will know that God is God.

Revelation 1:16
In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

Is Christ literally going to be holding seven stars and is a double edged sword really going to be coming from his mouth?

Instead of changing or brushing these things aside... I challenge you to answer directly what myself and WG just posted.

The Bible is the Word of God... but not everything is literal nor is everything symbolic.

hauntinghelper · Aug 11, 2013, 04:39 PM

This type of thinking is how the Joseph Smiths and Harold Campings of the world get everybody to forsake logic and reason. The Bible is NOT that confusing of a Book. People make it that way... not God.

gromitt82 · Aug 12, 2013, 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by freeman4 View Post

If you think the Bible is a bunch of fairy tails and not to be taken literal I do not know how you can call yourselves Christian. You are living in a fantasy world. A world of make believe. When all this begins to happen then you will know that God is God.

With all due respect I do not want to waste time in debating such a ludicrous statement.

However, for the sake of clarification let me remind you that Genesis narrates the creation of
the heavens and the earth in 7 solid days.

Please reply. How do you interpret literally these 7 days and how can you explain the approx. 13 billion years our scientists consider right now the age of our Universe?

Who is telling fairy tales here?

Gromitt82

freeman4 · Aug 12, 2013, 03:46 AM

There were Tribes of Joseph, Descendants of Jacob, they were Ephraim and Manasseh. Ephraim being modern day America. See Gen. Ch 32,35 and 48.

gromitt82 · Aug 12, 2013, 07:30 AM

You are not answering my question. See Gen. 1 for literal interpretation...

Gromitt82

freeman4 · Aug 12, 2013, 08:28 AM

Don't know what you are talking about, do you.

Wondergirl · Aug 12, 2013, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by freeman4

Don't know what you are talking about, do you.

He wants to know how you resolve the literal reading of Genesis 1 with the scientific evidence that our universe is very old.

gromitt82 · Aug 12, 2013, 08:51 AM

You only seem to understand what you deem it more convenient. You have started by saying that if we do not take the Bible literally, and we consider it like a fable, then we are kind of doomed. And you imply subsequently that you DO interpret it literally. So I'm asking you to define yourself and tell me how long did it take to create our earth? 7 days according to Gen.1 or 4.5 billion years according to some "crazy" scientists.
I would also like to know your views about Adam and Eve. Were they the only inhabitants of our planet, Eve being created out of a rib of Adam? And if so how come we have discovered in Atapuerca (Spain) 100% evidence of men and women going back to some 500.000 years... How can you explain that? Is the Bible lying?
Please clarify your position.

Gromitt82

freeman4 · Aug 12, 2013, 11:04 AM

Do you believe that all was created in 6 literal days? I don't.

dwashbur · Aug 12, 2013, 11:38 AM

So then, even you don't believe your claim that we have to take the Bible literally?

freeman4 · Aug 12, 2013, 01:03 PM

In Geneses everything was re furbished, made new in six days. Everything was put back in order because of a war type situation between God and Satan when Satan tried to take Gods Throne.

I do not know how old the universe is, billions maybe.

Wondergirl · Aug 12, 2013, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by freeman4

In Geneses everything was re furbished, made new in six days. Everything was put back in order because of a war type situation between God and Satan when Satan tried to take Gods Throne.

And you know this how?

freeman4 · Aug 12, 2013, 02:31 PM

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." (Revelation 12:7-9).