[coogiez]

Okay,

So now...

Meh, this is a bit of a answer to an answer of one of my questiony-type thingos.
It (kinda :rolleyes:) deviates from the premise of my post..

Aaand I feel like stretching my sociality arm a bit, here:

Q by "BlakeCory": You subscribe to a deterministic view of events. Because we're all puppets, your just a puppet who can see the strings. Right?

A, well, kinda: the idea of the human race being puppets,
Now, who's the one tugging the strings?
And don't say it's the government, religious cults or any of that sort.

No "elite" nor "authorative" groups control everyone completely.

If you look at yourself in the logical perspective,

it's your own hand.

And it was simply trained,
Like an experiment.




Your thoughts?

[BlakeCory]

I think there are strings that we control and strings we don't control. I choose my job in one sense, in another they chose me from the interview. I choose what movies I watch, yet someone else chose to make the movie. I chose what words to write, but only from words constructed from other minds.

There are some strings I have no control over. I was not born in the 18th century. I cannot control the pattern of my fingerprint.

I am not talking about fatalism which believes that humanity or individual humans have no influence on the future and its events. Determinists believe that the level to which we have influence over their future is itself dependent on present and past, Compatibilism.

[coogiez]

Mmm,
i am guessing there are socially constructed "strings" and naturally occurring "strings", or in other words connections between occurrences.

You wrote the words you wrote because over generations that language has been changing.

You chose your job because that's what you've slowly become to find interest in,
And when you went for this interview,
The people are there because of the (generally) same occurrences.

A tree fell because termites found some more food.

[BlakeCory]

You chose your job because that's what you've slowly become to find interest in,
and when you went for this interview,
the people are there because of the (generally) same occurrences.

Do we choose our jobs out of interest? What about the desire for money? There is also an availability factor. Sometimes we just take what we can get. My interest in space did not lead me to Nasa's doorstep. People become doctors because of their parent's influence, a desire to help people, or wanting to make money. Those are just the obvious factors the list goes on infinitely.

Did the termites find the tree after it fell? Did the tree fall from the wind, an ax, drought, lightning, or any other influence? The easiest and most obvious answer is not always true.

[coogiez]

"Did the termites find the tree after it fell? Did the tree fall from the wind, an ax, drought, lightning, or any other influence?"

does it really matter?

it was a way of showing things are undeterminable until past-tense,

unless you really know everything.

"What about the desire for money?"
money is merely a tool of trading,
money is useless without something too sell.

"Those are just the obvious factors the list goes on infinitely."

why not generalise it then, not entirely.
but when amounts get enormous, it's easier and quicker.

when one person dies it's sad.
when millions die, it's an estimated value,
with no emotion attached.

when emotion isn't attached,
testability is easier.

"People become doctors because of their parent's influence."

and their parents were given interest in a career in medicine because
"a desire to help people"

in really goes on, so I lost interest and I understand,
now, with all these authoritarian systems,
it's easier.

and the hands were simply trained,
like an experiment.

no conspiracing here though, that'd be specifying.

merely a constant thing people do,
and not really because they're actually testing each other.
more or less a chance thing that's progressed through and with societies known by humans.

[BlakeCory]

...and the hands were simply trained, like an experiment.

No conspiracing here though, that'd be specifying.

Merely a constant thing people do,
and not really because they're actually testing each other.
more or less a chance thing that's progressed through and with societies known by humans.

Where did the chance come from? Any puppet that reaches up and takes hold of his strings will fall. You could argue that he could be trained to manipulate another puppet. Then the logic becomes circular because the puppeteer is still indirectly in control.

You said:

I'm back, with my eye's wide open, and I don't care about people, because I've seen them. and they're all the same… Because I know and understand the truth, and it's something so many things have never known and understood. Because it's impossible for us too tell. Understanding is something the human race doesn't pride itself on. So we sit and watch. and know. and understand. and never change.

There is a reason you don't care about people. Your language is setting yourself apart from the human race, as if you want to alienate yourself from this world. The idea of never changing conveys the image of puppets. Stuck in place going through the movements unable to change what they are, puppets that do not understand and have no pride.

When your eyes are wide open and you do see them you'll understand that they are not all the same. That is the truth that compels the heart to care.

[coogiez]

"more or less a chance thing that's progressed through and with societies known by humans."

"Where did the chance come from?" you wha?

It's chance, you know:
something that is undeterminable until past-tense.
Unless you know and understand everything.


"There is a reason you don't care about people.1 Your language is setting yourself apart from the human race, as if you want to alienate yourself from this world.2 The idea of never changing conveys the image of puppets. Stuck in place going through the movements unable to change what they are, puppets that do not understand and have no pride. 3

When your eyes are wide open and you do see them you'll understand that they are not all the same.4 That is the truth that compels the heart to care.5

Okay:
1: because I understand we are lumps of matter, but still find some way to make ourselves think we are special, like god given or something, that whole notion of special is driven by ignorant self-indulgence.
2: I do not want to alienate myself from the world, just these "cultures" that the humans feel so blindly willing to follow, that were built by humans, for humans.
3:look at the societies of the world, thousands or ourselves dying every day, and that's generalizing things, the only ones that are getting anywhere in this social ladder are the ones who take advantage of others.
4: my eyes are open, more then I want sometimes, the differences are clear, people tend to exaggerate them, it's the reason why the differences are so special to humans alone that's hard to understand.
5: you missed a bit, that is also the socially constructed "truth" that compels humans to hate, misjudge, lie and steal, mostly all because of this care for their "loved ones", and pride.

human made concepts, built by humans for humans.


"Any puppet that reaches up and takes hold of his strings will fall.1 You could argue that he could be trained to manipulate another puppet.2 Then the logic becomes circular because the puppeteer is still indirectly in control.3"

Now,
1: no, any "puppet" that takes hold of their strings will be self-substantiating the puppeteer.
2: I do not need to argue that, it's obvious.
3: "puppeteer is still indirectly in control." you are your own puppeteer, the puppeteer is it's own puppet, you hold up your own strings with your own hand, and another puppet can come along and convince you to change your stance, or in this instance, the way you control yourself.

You are your own puppeteer, you hold up your own strings, be them built off rational or irrational thought, you can still just let go in either case, usually because you either see thing rationally, or you get told something and see things irrationally.

I cut the strings that I was told to build, because they were irrational, illogical, misunderstood and self-substantiating.

[BlakeCory]

I understand we are lumps of matter, but still find some way to make ourselves think we are special, like god given or something, that whole notion of special is driven by ignorant self-indulgence…

…I cut the strings that I was told to build, because they were irrational, illogical, misunderstood and self-substantiating.

This constructed truth of yours that compels you to cut off your strings is a human made concept, built by a human for humans.

The fact that we are made of matter has no bearing on our value. To believe that matter is worthless is to believe ideas are worthless since they are formed from matter (your brain) into matter (chemicals and brain waves). To say this is wrong and that is right is to believe in truth. In a universe made of matter (that doesn't matter) it is impossible to impose the idea of right and wrong without an outside influence.

Once you take everything and equate it with nothing you cannot talk as if there is still something left.

If you believe in the value of thought, ideas, then you also value matter.

[coogiez]

The fact that we are made of matter has no bearing on our value.

If you believe in the value of thought, ideas, then you also value matter.

um? :p

[coogiez]

This constructed truth of yours that compels you to cut off your strings is a human made concept, 1built by a human for humans.

2The fact that we are made of matter has no bearing on our value. 3To believe that matter is worthless is to believe ideas are worthless since they are formed from matter (your brain) into matter (chemicals and brain waves). 4To say this is wrong and that is right is to believe in truth. 5In a universe made of matter (that doesn't matter) it is impossible to impose the idea of right and wrong without an outside influence.

6Once you take everything and equate it with nothing you cannot talk as if there is still something left.
7If you believe in the value of thought, ideas, then you also value matter.


1: this constructed truth is made by humans, but not specifically for,
the only connection, that it was made by humans so they understand is an undeniable, obvious fact, so stating it is the main reason for something is being illogically judgmental.

2:the fact that we are made of matter has no bearing on our personally perceived level of value.

3:no, yes we are just matter, but our "worth" is self imposed, along with every other living organism, it's called selfishness, and it has no logical ties towards how worthy an inanimate object is apart from personal perceivement.

4:i did not say matter was wrong, I said matter has no logical value, "wrong" and "right" do not logically fit, and make the point that I'm trying to put across blurred.

5: follows through.
6: follows through.

7: I basically said this before, matter has no logical ties with worth or level of value determined by living organisms, because it's worth and value is determined by living organisms, which put that question out of the picture..

[magprob]

The answer:
No, I will die the death of a booger shot across the yard like ole Clyde used to do when he had no hankie.