[Starman]

This issue is a long way from being resolved. And Bush putting 6000 National Guard Troups without the ability to arrest anyone is juts plain stupid. Funny & good thing. I have not heard anything about the destruction of our National Anthem lately.

Funny that you should infer that these people are trying to destroy our national anthem when all they did was sing it in another language. Actually, they were trying to pay us a compliment because if an English speaker translates an Hispanic country's national anthem into English in order to sing it, it is considered by Hispanics an attempt at paying them a compliment. Obviously they are unfamiliar with a certain type of American mentality in reference to such things.

BTW
Some Americans find the Afro American ways of singing the national anthem both annoying and disrespectful. Yet they prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt in reference to their motives and say nothing because the motives or intentions of the singers are assumed to be noble.

[Starman]

Its obvious that the powers that be don't really want a solution. This issue didn't crop up over night and the solution will not be forth coming with out a lot of public outrage.:cool: :eek:

Strange that all those factrories seeking cheap labor should travel 12000 miles to Asia, communist China for example, instead of taking advantage of the cheap labor available to them in their sister democracies just across our border. If they had, the flow of illegal immigration would have ceased or would have been drastically reduced long ago.

Public outrage can have many causes.
Jorge Mariscal: The Paradox of Mexican Americans at War

[Starman]

I guess this forum is dead by now but just my comment on original reference to 'good God fearing people'.What's that supposed to show? a pathetic picture of a poor nation to show they can be illegally present in any foreign nation(in this case US) ?

While US itself is a country made out of Immigrants, however, it is important to make immigration and work permission a legal process. It is disturbing that they(protesting immigrants) are carrying the flag of their country when they are protesting to be legal in US! And, changing the national song into spanish? What's that? A dilemma of nationalism or sth?

Your identity is important but when you change yr nationality, it is important to understand that now you represent another land. People fail to see this as a big decision.

Immigration is a very important issue today in US as the country becomes more diverse. I recall a comedian making a remark on globalisation in this way: "One day, we are not going to have white ppl. You figure China and India almost covers the globe and they are all going to hump the whites one day and guess what's the kid going to be like?.."

I hope the issues r fairly resolved.

All available data shows clearly that your accusation has no basis inreality since Mexican Americans and other Hispanic Americans have repeatedly fought for the country in whichthey are citizens, the USA and have paid the ultimate prize by the thousands. S where you get thios weird idea is beyond me.

Additionally, Anglos don't have a monopoly on whitness as you seem to be assuming. The Hispanic community is composed of people of all races and only
A person who never benefited from an elementary education or is feigning blindness or is too infurtaiated by bigotry to see would argue otherwise.

[talaniman]

Not only reduced but people affected by the plant closings would be going south HHMMMM.. It is no secret that there is no OSHA in Asia or China or is there such a thing as unions or health benefits that the company pays for... or... retirement packages for employees, the list goes on, Obviously the government of Mexico is to corrupt even for greedy American businessmen.:cool: :eek:

[talaniman]

BTW-I've heard the spanish version of the Star Spangled Banner, its beautiful! But it was pulled from radio stations in Texas because it was said to be inflamatory.:cool: :confused:

[Starman]

I guess this forum is dead by now but just my comment on original reference to 'good God fearing people'.What's that supposed to show? a pathetic picture of a poor nation to show they can be illegally present in any foreign nation(in this case US) ?

While US itself is a country made out of Immigrants, however, it is important to make immigration and work permission a legal process. It is disturbing that they(protesting immigrants) are carrying the flag of their country when they are protesting to be legal in US! And, changing the national song into spanish? What's that? A dilemma of nationalism or sth?

Your identity is important but when you change yr nationality, it is important to understand that now you represent another land. People fail to see this as a big decision.

Immigration is a very important issue today in US as the country becomes more diverse. I recall a comedian making a remark on globalisation in this way: "One day, we are not going to have white ppl. You figure China and India almost covers the globe and they are all going to hump the whites one day and guess what's the kid going to be like?.."

I hope the issues r fairly resolved.

All available data shows clearly that your accusations of disloyalty has no basis in reality since Mexican Americans and other Hispanic Americans have repeatedly fought for the USA and have been willing to pay the ultimate prize by the thousands.

65th Infantry Regiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


170,000 Hispanics served in Vietnam;
133,500 Hispanics served in Korea

So where you get this disloyalty idea is beyond me.


Also, you seem to share a popular misconception about Hispanics and Anglos.
Anglos don't have a monopoly on whiteness and Hispanics are not a race.


Hispanic is not a race


BTW
Very often those boast the most about being patriotic Americans are the least suited to put themselves forth as representing the American ideal due to their bigotry, a state of mind which is more in tune with Nazism.

[Starman]

Not only reduced but people affected by the plant closings would be going south HHMMMM..........! It is no secret that there is no OSHA in Asia or China or is there such a thing as unions or health benefits that the company pays for ...or...retirement packages for employees, the list goes on, Obviously the government of Mexico is to corrupt even for greedy American businessmen.:cool: :eek:

There are already American factories in Mexico operating just fine. They are located close the border. Any explanation? Neither is Mexican government corruption said to be one of the factors which are preventing further business expansion there.

Excerpt:

American investors in Mexico are fully protected under Chapter 11 provisions of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).


Long-Term Financing to Businesses Investing in Mexico

In fact, the Mexican government is taking steps to stop the present problem from getting worse.


Excerpt:

IN HISTORIC BREAKTHROUGH, OPIC TO SUPPORT PRIVATE INVESTMENT IN MEXICO

President Fox hails new opportunity for US-Mexican partnership

WASHINGTON, D.C. and MEXICO CITY – Opening its doors to America's second-largest trading partner and a potential boon to U.S. investment, Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC) President and CEO George Muñoz and Mexico's Secretary of the Economy Luis Ernesto Derbez announced today that OPIC would offer long-term financing to U.S. small businesses investing in Mexico, setting the stage for the launch of OPIC programs in that country.

OPIC Press Release 0-04: 1/19/2001



BTW
The plants I am referring to don't provide jobs for Americans right now so in effect they are closed to Americans. Since I don't see Americans heading south now, how is it that because the factories close after going to Mexico would cause Americans to head south?
The ones most affected by the plants relocatiing to Mexico or closing in terms of jobs would be the Asiatics and the Mexican workers themselves as well as the factory owners.

[talaniman]

Giant complexes of cement and glass stand where vast desert once was. The maquiladoras, American-owned factories in Mexico, are enormous, and their modern design creates a stark contrast with the run-down gas stations, homes and stores in their neighborhoods.
The maquiladoras are a sanitized version of doing business in Mexico that began in 1994 when the North American Free Trade Agreement took effect. NAFTA allows American businesses to go within 50 miles of the U.S. border in an area called the Free Trade Zone. In this area, businesses are not subject to U.S. taxes or many tariff restrictions. The signees of NAFTA—the United States, Mexico and Canada—have set a goal of 2008 for full implementation of the agreement's many objectives.
But the changes are already apparent. In 1990 there were 1,700 American factories in Mexico; in 2001 there were 3,600.
Currently, there are no health benefits and, for the most part, no unions in Juarez, according to Public Citizen, a non-profit public interest group. People interviewed for this story accused American companies of a number of abuses in Mexico:
• Improperly disposing waste, which has led to the contamination of drinking water and an elevated risk of Hepatitis A.
• Working people up to 12 hours a day.
• Showing a hiring preference toward women because they are more docile than men.
Since NAFTA took effect, the minimum wage has fallen 20 percent, according to Public Citizen. Half of the maquiladora workforce makes less than $8 a day.
The women who work in maquiladoras are often from rural parts of Mexico and have no family support system, says Tom Hanson, director of the Mexican Solidarity Network. That makes female maquiladora workers targets for killers.
The best-paid maquiladora workers are in the auto segment, Hanson says—they are paid $70 a week.
Tom Fullerton, an associate professor of business and finance at the University of Texas at El Paso, says NAFTA is not all bad, but some policies passed by the Mexican government have hampered reform.
“Maquiladoras have been in the area since the 1960s, but the Mexican government makes it hard for companies to lay off or terminate workers,” Fullerton says. “So when the economy goes into a decline, the wages the employees receive suffer since the companies cannot decrease their employees.
“A lot of people like to claim the maquiladoras don't pay fair wages, but look at the thousands at the border. Mexicans are voting with their feet—they leave behind their family and friends. Their situation could be much worse.”
Once, NAFTA was good for the border, says Richard Bath, a retired professor of political science at the University of Texas at El Paso.
“A lot has slipped behind,” he says. “A lot of the gains after NAFTA have been negated. The whole concept of NAFTA is anti-agricultural.”
Sales of corn, Mexico's staple crop, have been stunted by U.S. exports. When NAFTA began, nearly one quarter of Mexico's population—8 million people—was involved in agriculture. This number fell to 6.5 million people by 2003.
Global Trade Watch says the Mexican government recently estimated that more than half of its population doesn't earn enough money to cover the basics of food, clothing, health care, housing, education and public transportation.
“Unemployment in Juarez is only at about 2 percent, but if you sell cigarettes on the street, you are considered fully employed,” says Victor Muñoz, the co-director of the Coalition Against Violence for Women and Families on the Border.
I googled american factories in Mexico,and this was the first one that came up. Not a pretty picture at all but does show what american business men are doing in mexico. No wonder people are running!:cool: :eek: (sorry about the cut-paste)

[Starman]

Thanks for the information. I was under the impression that American-owned companies in Mexico were providing a way to make a living there. If indeed this is not working then the solution of immigrant flow across the border has to be another. It seems that the companies are causing the people to flee instead of causing them to remain in Mexico.
So their policies have to be addressed and modified by those who can do so. Otherwise they seem to be making the problem worse. Relocating factories with such policies would do no good. Can't the federal government force these companies to behave themselves properly? That is to say, sign a contract in which they promise to abide by certain policies or else be prohibited from doing business in Mexico? Actually, I don't understand how such a situation has been ignored and permitted to worsen in this way.

[talaniman]

I was astounded myself and look at the immigration problem through different eyes. Between the American and Mexican governments it sure looks like EXPLOTATION of the Mexican people to me.:cool: :eek: :mad:

By the way

I always thought it strange that people would risk their lives to get to America but had no idea it was that bad.:cool:

[Starman]

BTW-I've heard the spanish version of the Star Spangled Banner, its beautiful! But it was pulled from radio stations in Texas because it was said to be inflamatory.:cool: :confused:

I haven't heard it yet. But I'm sure that it probably is inflamatory to certain Americans. Hilary and Bush didn't mind that the anthem was sung in Spanish. To be honest, I just can't imagine citizens of any other country being offended in the same way if their anthem was sung in another language. Sometimes I wonder. About two years ago, prior to an athletic, event an Hispanic woman was about to sing the anthem in English. Before she had even uttered the first note there were hoots, howlings and whistles from the audience.

[RUBLUE]

Well about the only thing I agree, is strong sanctions should be put against the rich mostly Republican employers that hire the illeagal Mexicans in the first place. But I would hardly call Mexico a sister democracy. If Arnold Swarzenegger had migrated to Mexico instead of the US, he could not have run for Governor. If Argentina native Sergio Villanveva, firefighter hero of 9/11 attacks had moved to Tecate instead of New York he would not have been allowed on the force. Even as Mexico presses the US to grant unrestricted citzenship to millions of undocumented Mexican migrants, its officials at time calling US policies "Xenophonic", Mexico places daunting limations on anyone born outside its territory. In the US only two posts- the Presidency and Vice Presidency are reserved for legal naturalized citizens. Foreign born Mexicans can't hold seats in either house of their Congress. They are also banned from state legislatures, the Suprem court and all Governoships. Also Mexico's Constitution reservs
ALL Federal posts, and position in the Military, Merchant Marines for native born Mexicans. Since 2003, it has encouraged cities to ban non-natives from local jobs as Firefighters, Police and Judges. Mexicos foreign-born make up is just 0.5% compaired to 13% in the US. Mexico grants citizenship to about 3000 a year, compaired to 500,000 a year in the US. As far as Mexico being a sister democracy, I think NOT!! I also feel for the tens of thousands of LAW abiding Mexicans who followed procedure (LAW) waited in line, who are now citizens, it is a slap in the face. My stepfather is one of them and he agrees with me. And as for politicians to starv and work for little or no wages, give me a break. There are so many other countrys in South Africa, North Korea, China, Ukraine, Poland, Russia, that are just as worse off as Mexico. But because they are a boarder country, and having been breaking the LAW froever, we should overlook that. This one issue, people being here illegal is tearing this country apart. Irony, if the illegal people were not here, there would not be a issue.

[talaniman]

I believe in the law the same as you do,and I feel for all the poor ,oppressed people of the world but its very hard to see poor people trying to eek out a living and that law that is supposed to protect you is putting you behind the eight ball. Since we now are seeing that its not the people but the policies that are the real issue the solution is clear-change the policies and get rid of those who use the LAW to enrich themselves at the expense of the poor. Those so-called illegals are running from policies they cannot fight and deserve the help of all of us.:cool:

[talaniman]

I guess the first step would be to stop blaming people for the things that they do because they are hungry and desperate!:cool:

[Starman]

Well about the only thing I agree, is strong sanctions should be put against the rich mostly Republican employers that hire the illeagal Mexicans in the first place. But I would hardly call Mexico a sister democracy. If Arnold Swarzenegger had migrated to Mexico instead of the US, he could not have run for Governor. If Argentina native Sergio Villanveva, firefighter hero of 9/11 attacks had moved to Tecate instead of New York he would not have been allowed on the force. Even as Mexico presses the US to grant unrestricted citzenship to millions of undocumented Mexican migrants, its officals at time calling US policies "Xenophonic", Mexico places daunting limations on anyone born outside its territory. In the US only two posts- the Presidency and Vice Presidency are reserved for legal naturalized citizens. Foreign born Mexicans can't hold seats in either house of their Congress. They are also banned from state legislatures, the Suprem court and all Governoships. Also Mexico's Constitution reservs
ALL Federal posts, and position in the Military, Merchant Marines for native born Mexicans. Since 2003, it has encouraged cities to ban non-natives from local jobs as Firefighters, Police and Judges. Mexicos foreign-born make up is just 0.5% compaired to 13% in the US. Mexico grants citizenship to about 3000 a year, compaired to 500,000 a year in the US. As far as Mexico being a sister democracy, I think NOT!!! I also feel for the tens of thousands of LAW abiding Mexicans who followed procedure (LAW) waited in line, who are now citizens, it is a slap in the face. My stepfather is one of them and he agrees with me. And as for politicans to starv and work for little or no wages, give me a break. There are so many other countrys in South Africa, North Korea, China, Ukraine, Poland, Russia, that are just as worse off as Mexico. But because they are a boarder country, and having been breaking the LAW froever, we should overlook that. This one issue, people being here illegal is tearing this country apart. Irony, if the illegal people were not here, there would not be a issue.

By sister democracy I didn't mean identical democracy since democracies vary in detail.
England is not an exact duplicate of our democracy either yet it's a democracy nevertheless. Any democracy's foreign policy, naturalization systems, and social institutions are irrelevant to its democratic status as long as they don't deprive the citizens of their vote.

Ancient Greek city states practiced a democracy where only men who owned land or a home could vote. Yet they were democracies. In fact, the United States was a men-only voting democracy for some time and women had to struggle to gain suffrage. Would you have accused America of not being a democracy because it didn't allow its women to vote? Ask any history college professor and he will tell you that America has always been a democracy. So why not grant Mexico and all the other Hispanic democracies you might be excluding the same leniency?

Women's Suffrage. Harry Osborn, Two More Bright Spots on the Map, Maryland Suffrage News (14th November, 1914)... The struggle for women's suffrage in America began in the 1820s... In the United States the stoutest enemy of the movement acknowledges that woman suffrage is ultimately inevitable...
Women's Suffrage


Merriam Webster's Dictionary

Main Entry: de·moc·ra·cy
Function: noun
Pronunciation: di-'mä-kr&-se
Inflected Form(s): plural -cies
Etymology: Middle French democratie, from Late Latin democratia, from Greek demokratia, from demos + -kratia -cracy
1 a : government by the people ; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

Your step father feels that because he had to wait everyone should be made to wait regardless of the differences in circumstances? That's called deontological or rule thinking and its inflexibility in the face of the need for
Adjustments can lead one to commit injustices.

We are in favor of what?
There you go again Jimmy! No one is suggesting that illegality be ignored or encouraged. What's being suggested is that it be remedied and that part oi the remedy be the guest worker program which permits the government to keep track of the workers and a naturalization for those who deserve it due to the long years they have spent here with the full cooperation of our business owners who needed the cheap labor, and with the tacit cooperation of our federal government which conveniently turned its face the other way as all this was going on.

Tearing the country apart? That's an unfounded fear due to a perceived threat that only exists in the minds of those who fear the country is being torn apart. To propagate such a fear by repetition in direct opposition to what the president tells you to do is to foment the very social instability that those who spread the concept claim they want to avoid. Ever hear of a self- fulfilling prophecy?

[magprob]

Might be the answer?

Dig a moat the length of the Mexican border.
Use the dirt from the moat to raise the levies in New Orleans.
Put the Florida alligators in the moat.

Any other problems you want me to solve?

[RUBLUE]

Might be the answer?

Dig a moat the length of the Mexican border.
Use the dirt from the moat to raise the levies in New Orleans.
Put the Florida alligators in the moat.

Any other problems you want me to solve?

Please run for President!! Straight common sense, WOW!! Solved 3 problems at 1 time.

[samir_raut88]

Hahahah... funny one magprob
I wish the peepole in the congress had brains like u. at least it would be funny.

I was going to ask you fr a solution on global warming. But nervermind, the congress thinks we can still abuse the planet.

[susy]

Illegal immigrants.Umm... Who are the lawmakers? Human beens, and human beens make mistake. They say something is illegal because they believe it that way, not because it is. I don't like people crossing the border illegally, and something needs to be done to stop that. However, deportation is not the answer because that would be the destruction of many families, kids don't have to pay for these things. They would be harm psychologically, and that is not good since they are going to be part of the future of this country because they are Americans. Moreover, not all the illegal immigrants are poor because many overstay their visa, and to get a visa to come here is not easy and cheap. Education, and the American dream is what they want. Sometimes,the country from where they come from is the reason.This situation is illegal because that is the law, but these people make mistakes as human beens such as lawmakers make.We need to find the solution to these situations not to find guilty people. These undocumented alliens are not criminal unless they have committed a crime. Being illegal is not a crime.
That is my opinion.

[RUBLUE]

Illegal immigrants.Umm...Who are the lawmakers? human beens, and human beens make mistake. They say something is illegal because they believe it that way, not because it is. I don't like people crossing the border illegally, and something needs to be done to stop that. However, deportation is not the answer because that would be the destruction of many families, kids don't have to pay for these things. They would be harm psychologically, and that is not good since they are going to be part of the future of this country because they are Americans. Moreover, not all the illegal immigrants are poor because many overstay their visa, and to get a visa to come here is not easy and cheap. Education, and the American dream is what they want. Sometimes,the country from where they come from is the reason.This situation is illegal because that is the law, but these people make mistakes as human beens such as lawmakers make.We need to find the solution to these situations not to find guilty people. These undocumented alliens are not criminal unless they have committed a crime. Being illegal is not a crime.
That is my opinion.

Hmmm, being illegal is legal, or not a crime. Sounds like a Bush language stumble speech. They broke the law when they came here illegal. Does anybody think of the criminal element coming across the boarder ? Gun's, Gang's, Organized Crime. The affect 1 kilo of cocaine cooked into crack. Just how many lives are touched, families torn apart. Kid's dying. Ok most come for the American dream. But everyday MANY come for another kind of American dream. To profit at American's suffering!! If they are here illeagal, just cut of ALL social services at once. See how many go home. But that's just my opinion. With a lot of fact.