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froggy7 · Aug 27, 2008, 12:04 AM

Basic background: Moved out of my apartment on July 21st. Waited 29 days to hear about the security deposit return, only to be told that the property manager had only just gotten the list of estimated damages, and that they would tell me today what it is. Just got the list, and I disagree with some of the items listed.

So, here's the question: I have learned that in California (where I am), a landlord only has 21 days from the day the tenant vacates the apartment to create the itemized list and send it (and any remaining security deposit) to the tenant. This obviously didn't happen. And, according to the bad faith clause, I can sue for double the security deposit. (Possibly triple... it's phrased as security deposit and double that for bad faith.)

1. Do I just tell them that I am suing them in small claims court for the double damages? Or, in a variant, just sue them without telling them first? The danger here is that judgements are easy to get, money is not.

2. Do I tell them that, under the civil code, I can sue them for double damages, and so I will be happy with the return of my full security deposit and we can go our separate ways?

3. Or, do I tell them that I can sue them for double, and I am asking that they return my deposit minus the amount that I think is reasonable? (There are some charges there for carpet repair which I believe were pre-existing, and they are charging me some cleaning fees for a spot that was filthy when I moved in. I find the fee for shampooing the carpet reasonable, and don't mind paying that one.)

Gentile_leo · Aug 27, 2008, 01:03 AM

Why not send demand for "return of deposit" by letter. Certified and regular mail. Give him time to respond. If no response or your not satisfied with refunded amount; ten file your claim with local small claims court. If any 'damages' are due to you, a Judge will decide.

excon · Aug 27, 2008, 06:01 AM

Hello froggy:

Sue 'em first - then you can negotiate...

excon

JudyKayTee · Aug 27, 2008, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by excon

Hello froggy:

Sue 'em first - then you can negotiate....

excon

Right - I'd sue to prove I mean business and then see how badly they don't want to go to Court.

KaraG · Aug 27, 2008, 08:11 AM

We are in a similar situation in CA and have researched quite a bit, including contacting the Fair Housing Authority who sent us a nice packet and sample letters.

We just sent a demand letter for the full deposit within 10 days, citing the LL's not following the 21 day rule in the CA Civil code. We included a sentence that we would take appropriate legal steps, including asking for the bad faith penalty, if this wasn't resolved satisfactorily in a timely basis.

Good luck!

rockinmommy · Aug 27, 2008, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by excon

Hello froggy:

Sue 'em first - then you can negotiate....

excon

Froggy, I'd base my decision on how they were as landlords. A zebra doesn't change it's stripes. If they were always slow and hard to deal with, I'd just sue.

If they've been fairly prompt and easy in the past I'd give them the benefit of the doubt and send a demand letter.

froggy7 · Aug 27, 2008, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by rockinmommy

Froggy, I'd base my decision on how they were as landlords. A zebra doesn't change it's stripes. If they were always slow and hard to deal with, I'd just go ahead and sue.

If they've been fairly prompt and easy in the past I'd give them the benefit of the doubt and send a demand letter.

Well.. this was a short term rental (3 months), and they haven't really been either. Pretty understanding, actually. But I also think that this is their first time of being landlords, so I am inclined to cut them some slack. On the other hand, I do feel that if they are going to be landlords, they should know the rules. I think that they are relying heavily on their property manager, who I didn't exactly like, but not for any reason I can put my finger on. So, I think I will send them the demand letter, and see what they do.

Another question: Generally we have dealt through e-mail. Will that do for the demand letter, or does it need to actually go through regular mail? They sent the itemized list through the e-mail, so I'm thinking that it should count for me too.

KaraG · Aug 27, 2008, 08:41 PM

If they don't reply to your email, they could say in court later that they never received it, but if you send a letter certified mail, you'll have proof to show a judge.

JudyKayTee · Aug 28, 2008, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by froggy7

Well.. this was a short term rental (3 months), and they haven't really been either. Pretty understanding, actually. But I also think that this is their first time of being landlords, so I am inclined to cut them some slack. On the other hand, I do feel that if they are going to be landlords, they should know the rules. I think that they are relying heavily on their property manager, who I didn't exactly like, but not for any reason I can put my finger on. So, I think I will send them the demand letter, and see what they do.

Another question: Generally we have dealt through e-mail. Will that do for the demand letter, or does it need to actually go through regular mail? They sent the itemized list through the e-mail, so I'm thinking that it should count for me too.

If they are cooperative, email is fine; if they are not, it is not.

(Every question raises another question!)

rockinmommy · Aug 28, 2008, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by froggy7

Another question: Generally we have dealt through e-mail. Will that do for the demand letter, or does it need to actually go through regular mail? They sent the itemized list through the e-mail, so I'm thinking that it should count for me too.

I'd email them, but send the same thing in the mail, as well. That way you have really covered your bases.

JudyKayTee · Aug 28, 2008, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by rockinmommy

I'd go ahead and email them, but send the exact same thing in the mail, as well. That way you have really covered your bases.

My experience has been once they get the email (which gets there first) they won't accept/sign for the letter.

Of course, half the time they don't sign for the letter either way - :)

rockinmommy · Aug 28, 2008, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

My experience has been once they get the email (which gets there first) they won't accept/sign for the letter.

Of course, half the time they don't sign for the letter either way - :)

I know. I don't even know that I'd bother with certified mail. I might just mail it. (My judges don't care. Especially if I had emails as back-up.) And sending the letter by certified mail is usually all you have to prove that you did. If they choose not to sign for it, that's their problem.

The bottom line is there's no way to know what is a right or wrong move until the judge tells you in court (if it comes down to that). Othewise it's just making calculated moves in the hopes of forcing the action you want to have happen...

excon · Aug 28, 2008, 08:36 AM

Hello again, froggy:

Here's the deal. They blew it. They owe you DOUBLE at a minimum, and maybe even triple. So, if you're going to demand HALF of what they owe you, maybe even a THIRD of what they owe you, then an email might work.

But, if you're going to demand what they OWE you, they ain't going to pay it, and everybody here knows that. Therefore, you're going to have to sue them anyway. So, why delay it? What?? You don't need you deposit back, like RIGHT NOW??

Get your leverage FIRST, then you can negotiate with them. The best way to teach a rookie landlord what's so, is to introduce them to small claims court.

excon

KaraG · Aug 28, 2008, 09:03 AM

If I was a judge and saw that a Landlord didn't sign for a certified letter from a former tenant waiting for their security deposit, I would put them in the Bad Faith category and be more apt to award those penalties to the tenant. But that's me and I'm not a judge, just hoping my case goes that way too.